Does Anyone Have a KI300?

[Seth]

On 6/5/2019 at 5:41 PM, johnw413 said:

  One thing that Garmin seems very good at is making you feel compelled to buy the more expensive option, i.e. to have an AI that talks to the AP you have to get the G500, the G5 is not pricey enough.

  Maybe the FAA guy that signed off on the 340 also did the Boeing MCAS.

  It seems like I will have to go with a used KI256 and hope it works long enough to make an AI replacement easier (and cheaper?) to deal with. Meanwhile the M20J panel doesn't have a lot of empty real estate to add more 3" instruments.

 

That’s what I did.  I purchased a used KI256A from Alan Fox until a solution comes out to replace with glass that drives the AP.

As people pull their King APs for Garmin I’ll purchase the used working parts inexpensively to keep mine going.  That said, flying behind a digital auto pilot is amazing (when I fly newer airplanes for charter).

-Seth

Edited July 18, 2019 by Seth

[Austintatious]

So, Oshkosh finished up... did garmin announce anything about G5 + legacy AP compatibility?

[Steve W]

9 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

So, Oshkosh finished up... did garmin announce anything about G5 + legacy AP compatibility?

No.

But they do have an OAT probe and adapter for the G5 now, and a USB panel power outlet.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Steve W

[Austintatious]

well..... crap.

I am just at a loss for words.... My partner and I have been shopping for a second Mooney... the shear number of aircraft out there with these older autopilots and crummy ADI's is astounding.  There has to be a huge market for A G5 compatibility solution.  HAS to be.

 

[Austintatious]

So, it looks like the KI300 is available but the adapter to let it work with the legacy AP's has not yet been released.  I am really eager to see it hit the market.

[MIm20c]

A previous rocket now Cirrus owner said a well known shop quoted him $5k to install a Aspen ea100 after the fact.  Even if Garmin put out a G5 solution my guess is the installed cost is going to be higher than most will be happy with. 

[kpaul]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

A previous rocket now Cirrus owner said a well known shop quoted him $5k to install a Aspen ea100 after the fact.  Even if Garmin put out a G5 solution my guess is the installed cost is going to be higher than most will be happy with. 

I had dual G5s along with some other work and I was well below $5k for labor.

[LANCECASPER]

16 hours ago, MIm20c said:

A previous rocket now Cirrus owner said a well known shop quoted him $5k to install a Aspen ea100 after the fact.  Even if Garmin put out a G5 solution my guess is the installed cost is going to be higher than most will be happy with. 

That was the shop's way of nicely saying we don't want this job.

[MIm20c]

15 hours ago, kpaul said:

I had dual G5s along with some other work and I was well below $5k for labor.

 

22 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

That was the shop's way of nicely saying we don't want this job.

IIRC it was AP Central but I assume it also included the hardware which is about half of the quote.  My only point was it is not a drop in solution. 

[J0nathan225]

Anyone have a manual for the bk ki 300 attitude indicator, my KI seems to drift for attitude alignment, hoping some troubleshooting clues are in there (realigning fix's it for short durations)?  I have a Aspen PRO PFD and the ki300 is the backup, not sure why, but previous owner HAD a G5, but it was taken out and the "new" drifting KI put in it's place. Also the KI only shows attitude which seems odd as it's capable of AS/ALT  Etc. 

Thanks for any help,

[FoxMike]

I have a Sandia 340A which is the same as the KI300 without the flight director.  If you go to Sandia website you can find a manual for the 340A which can be downloaded.  Airspeed and altitude can be added with the push of a button.  The manual explains.  I had the earlier version called a Quartto updated to the 340A and the conversion lead to a 6 month long repair to make the attitude indicator handle turbulence.  Finally it seems to be able to handle the bumps.  It does still drift in roll usually not more than 2 or 3 degrees  Sometimes when riding in turbulence the drift is more like 5 degree.  I am thinking about a KI 300 to wire to the KFC 150 but wonder how the autopilot would react to the drift.  Get the manual it will explain how to reerect the attitude indicator by a push of a button.  Not much help as you  need to reerect a lot and it gets tiring after while.

[J0nathan225]

On 9/7/2019 at 9:18 PM, FoxMike said:

I have a Sandia 340A which is the same as the KI300 without the flight director.  If you go to Sandia website you can find a manual for the 340A which can be downloaded.  Airspeed and altitude can be added with the push of a button.  The manual explains.  I had the earlier version called a Quartto updated to the 340A and the conversion lead to a 6 month long repair to make the attitude indicator handle turbulence.  Finally it seems to be able to handle the bumps.  It does still drift in roll usually not more than 2 or 3 degrees  Sometimes when riding in turbulence the drift is more like 5 degree.  I am thinking about a KI 300 to wire to the KFC 150 but wonder how the autopilot would react to the drift.  Get the manual it will explain how to reerect the attitude indicator by a push of a button.  Not much help as you  need to reerect a lot and it gets tiring after while.

Yea the standby being unreliable defeats the purpose of a standby to me.  That manual helped, but it still becomes off or unaligned from my aspen even during straight and level flight. It gets utterly unsafe when turns and descents are included. I shot an email to BK, we'll see what the turns up, I avoid any real IMC due to it.  Can't help but think the G5 that "isn't a certified backup" worked better. 

Edited September 14, 2019 by J0nathan225

[MIm20c]

The real scary thing is that is certified now to be the sole AI which also drives the AP. If your unit has the latest software it should not on the shelves right now IMO. 

[J0nathan225]

4 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

The real scary thing is that is certified now to be the sole AI which also drives the AP. If your unit has the latest software it should not on the shelves right now IMO. 

Yea 0 trust in this device presently.  Hopefully they have a cheap fix, it'll take some time to earn my trust in the unit. 

[BarkerBK]

3 hours ago, J0nathan225 said:

Yea 0 trust in this device presently.  Hopefully they have a cheap fix, it'll take some time to earn my trust in the unit. 

Hi Jon, 

I completely understand where you're coming from. That sort of drift is unacceptable, and I wouldn't fly IMC either if I have unit doing that. Can you shoot me a PM with your email, so I can make sure someone in tech support is working the problem. 

Cheers, 

Steve

[J0nathan225]

42 minutes ago, PearceBK said:

Hi Jon, 

I completely understand where you're coming from. That sort of drift is unacceptable, and I wouldn't fly IMC either if I have unit doing that. Can you shoot me a PM with your email, so I can make sure someone in tech support is working the problem. 

Cheers, 

Steve

Pm sent

[FoxMike]

I see your problem.  Here is what to do.  Email or call Sandia, ask for Dennis Schmidt (dschmidt@sandia.aero).  Have the seriall number of the unit and attach the photo.  You do not need to say much more than you were expecting better performance.  Ask for a loaner and a repair of your unit.  If the unit was properly installed a logbook entry and a certificate from Sandia should be in the logbook.  You might have to contact the former owner for the information if he did the install.  If Dennis agrees to send you loaner wait for it before you remove the defective unit.  When the loaner arrives remove your unit and use the box the loaner arrived in to return ship.  Next step is to wait wait wait.  When you get one back one back  (likely a different unit)  and you ship the loaner back.  Dennis seems to be responsible and he will make it right.  Dennis has several emails and he only watches one so if I have given you the one not watched you might not hear from him so a followup phone call. is appropriate.  

I bought one unit but have now had 5 units so far since reliably has been a problem.  They are getting better.  the one I bought only worked one day.  Good Luck!

[FoxMike]

One other thing I just thought of is to look at the paperwork (logbook entry) and consider copying the installing shop and Bendix King with your email.  I doubt either of those companys will do anything for you and Dennis is you best bet.  The former owner might have bought the unit used and installed it himself in which case your only hope is Sandia.

[carusoam]

I try to avoid hyperbole...

This thing is going to end a flight prematurely.

I reposted the pic to help make it clear to everyone that sees it... ( I oriented the pic with gravity )

 

This is a time for an engineer at the instrument company to stand up and stop the madness....

 

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t?

This misbehaving device has tragedy written all over it...

 

Steve @PearceBK share this with a few people around your office... May I suggest...

• VP marketing
• VP sales
• VP engineering 
• Any part of the organization that would think this is OK to have in the field....

The only thing that is more expensive than this challenge is this challenge causing a tragedy....

 

Another example of an opportunity where the engineers should have taken the bull by the horns... but they didn’t...

GM had some bad ignition switches for decades... they only killed a few people per year... the Engineering department fixed the problem with a new design... but never recalled the ones in the field... somebody neglected to follow change control... no part number change was associated with the new design....

Customers were given some nice key rings to separate the usual group of keys from the ignition key... a beautiful, but ineffective solution.

Kind of like handing out a stack of post it notes to go with each unit...

 

Maybe I missed something...

hopefully I just yelled movie in a crowded fire house....

I am looking forward to issuing an apology for my misunderstanding... Steve tell me what I missed, P.LEASE!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[J0nathan225]

It could have been installed improperly right? I'm not going to point too large a finger just yet. Admittedly I don't 100% know how the system works and if any install errors could effect an AHRS in this way. 

My concern is BK's business model of everything must be done inhouse, hopefully I can get a quote on what it'll cost to repair. I don't wanna send it away and then get billed 2-3+k for a repair, at that point money is better spent going a different way IMO. 

I will reserve judgement and IMC flying until I see what the plan of action is.

[MIm20c]

15 minutes ago, J0nathan225 said:

It could have been installed improperly right? I'm not going to point too large a finger just yet. Admittedly I don't 100% know how the system works and if any install errors could effect an AHRS in this way. 

My concern is BK's business model of everything must be done inhouse, hopefully I can get a quote on what it'll cost to repair. I don't wanna send it away and then get billed 2-3+k for a repair, at that point money is better spent going a different way IMO. 

I will reserve judgement and IMC flying until I see what the plan of action is.

This is a no cost repair minus R&R IMO...it has been an ongoing problem for a long time. If you can look behind the panel and make sure the p/s lines are connected even though not currently displayed. I think this info helps with error correcting. 

[PTK]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

This is a no cost repair minus R&R IMO...it has been an ongoing problem for a long time.

I disagree. This is a remove and ship back for a full refund to include R&R costs. To put up with and give a free pass to the manufacturer, be it BK, Aspen, Avidyne, Garmin or anybody else is pure and unadulterated cow manure. And any self respecting manufacturer worth my consideration would immediately take it back and issue a full refund.