Trade offs between an F and J model

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

Should be.  But if they plan to compare speeds between models, be sure they are comparing similar power settings.

BTTW. No need to trust anyone. 

[EricJ]

Regarding speed comparisons, I haven't been able to figure out how "fast" my J is, let alone compare it to something else.   Different conditions, even cowl flap settings, trim, temperature, etc., etc., all seem to matter.   I've had a few times where I managed 160ktas cruise, but the conditions weren't general and it certainly won't do it every day.   A couple of times it was from making a fast descent from a higher altitude and when I leveled off it just never slowed down.    It's pretty cool when it'll do it, but I've never been able to reliably predict when I can reproduce that.

This makes me take many of the speed comparisons with small quantities of sodium chloride.  

[Bob_Belville]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Regarding speed comparisons, I haven't been able to figure out how "fast" my J is, let alone compare it to something else.   Different conditions, even cowl flap settings, trim, temperature, etc., etc., all seem to matter.   I've had a few times where I managed 160ktas cruise, but the conditions weren't general and it certainly won't do it every day.   A couple of times it was from making a fast descent from a higher altitude and when I leveled off it just never slowed down.    It's pretty cool when it'll do it, but I've never been able to reliably predict when I can reproduce that.

This makes me take many of the speed comparisons with small quantities of sodium chloride.  

Byron @jetdrivenor Becca may chime in here but I don't think it would be hard to set up a course to be flown with the only stipulation would be that the plane be at the same altitude at start and finish. 

[EricJ]

9 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Byron @jetdrivenor Becca may chime in here but I don't think it would be hard to set up a course to be flown with the only stipulation would be that the plane be at the same altitude at start and finish. 

MSL or pressure altitude or density altitude? 

So many things matter...

[Bob_Belville]

14 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

(1) Your single anecdote doesn't change the realities of nationwide averages.

(2) The mean or median height being 5'9" is really irrelevant here, you have to look at the statistically significant grouping (which is a wider range).

(3) Height doesn't mean much by itself, inseam is what really matters, as that's what will determine how far back the seat(s) are set, for rudder control (etc).

(4) Saying "there's a lot of BS" without doing anything to meaningfully refute the numbers, and other experiences, isn't really a debate technique.

I have first hand experience, with a 32" inseam (a very common inseam measurement), flying a B, a C, an E, and multiple Fs and Js. The rear seat is usable behind me and my average inseam legs in the mid-body. It simply is not, by a non-outlier adult with legs and feet, in the short-body planes.

Whatever. To put it simply, I don't think 5'9" pilots will fly with the seat anywhere near as far back as 6'2" pilots. The short bodies front seats can move from a 36.5 to a 44" arm. The track holes are 7.5" front to rear. It is not anecdotal to say that the average sized male pilot, and an even higher %age of female pilots, can fly a short body and leave enough room for an adult behind their seat.

Of course w&b is more likely a limiting factor trying to fly 4 above average adults in any Mooney. With 350 pounds of fuel Mooneys, even long bodies, have only 550-750 pounds for passengers and luggage. If a couple of those are you 6'2" 225# types... 

[Bob_Belville]

4 minutes ago, EricJ said:

MSL or pressure altitude or density altitude? 

So many things matter...

GPS, obviously. 

[chrixxer]

1 minute ago, Bob_Belville said:

Whatever. To put it simply, I don't think 5'9" pilots will fly with the seat anywhere near as far back as 6'2" pilots. The short bodies front seats can move from a 36.5 to a 44" arm. The track holes are 7.5" front to rear. It is not anecdotal to say that the average sized male pilot, and an even higher %age of female pilots, can fly a short body and leave enough room for an adult behind their seat.

Of course w&b is more likely a limiting factor trying to fly 4 above average adults in any Mooney. With 350 pounds of fuel Mooneys, even long bodies, have only 550-750 pounds for passengers and luggage. If a couple of those are you 6'2" 225# types... 

"Whatever." A telling rebuttal.

"To put it simply, I don't think 5'9" pilots will fly with the seat anywhere near as far back as 6'2" pilots." You don't think. Without any evidence or running the numbers. And ignoring completely the role that inseam, not height, plays. 

"It is not anecdotal to say that the average sized male pilot, and an even higher %age of female pilots, can fly a short body and leave enough room for an adult behind their seat." It's also not based on facts or averages. The average sized male pilot will have an inseam of 32" or longer. To reach the pedals comfortably, that dictates a seat position that leaves less than 4" behind the front seat. These are all facts. (And, sad to say, the average female pilot isn't really a consideration; how many folks coming here asking about a short- vs. mid-body Mooney are female pilots? Female pilots represent just 7% of the licensed pilots in the U.S. For the purpose of a general discussion, looking at where the bell curve sits, for the vast majority of average pilots, the short body is not a 4-place airplane.)

"Of course w&b is more likely a limiting factor trying to fly 4 above average adults in any Mooney. With 350 pounds of fuel Mooneys, even long bodies, have only 550-750 pounds for passengers and luggage." I have 1045 usable, and fuel at tabs is 300 lbs. That leaves 745 for passengers and luggage. That's four "FAA standard" adult males, or more likely, two guys and two gals, or two parents and two teenagers. Easily.

[Bob_Belville]

2 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

The average sized male pilot will have an inseam of 32" or longer. To reach the pedals comfortably, that dictates a seat position that leaves less than 4" behind the front seat. These are all facts.

"Whatever" was where I was tempted to end our exchange because your points are "facts", mine are merely "anecdotal" - see above snippet. 

IMO, you're taking this recurring, long standing, good humored, friendly debate in which I sometimes serve as champion for the minority position, way too seriously.   

[jaylw314]

47 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Regarding speed comparisons, I haven't been able to figure out how "fast" my J is, let alone compare it to something else. 

Hah!  Thanks, I thought I was the only who felt that way! 

[ArtVandelay]

Maybe we need a poll of MS pilots heights.


Tom

[Yetti]

45 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Maybe we need a poll of MS pilots heights.


Tom

I win.   Game over

[kris_adams]

58 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Maybe we need a poll of MS pilots heights.


Tom

Set it up! Lol

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Maybe we need a poll of MS pilots heights.


Tom

Correlated to model flown.   So when somebody says, "You have to be this tall to fly a C," the data can be referenced. 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, chrixxer said:

"Whatever." A telling rebuttal.

"To put it simply, I don't think 5'9" pilots will fly with the seat anywhere near as far back as 6'2" pilots." You don't think. Without any evidence or running the numbers. And ignoring completely the role that inseam, not height, plays. 

"It is not anecdotal to say that the average sized male pilot, and an even higher %age of female pilots, can fly a short body and leave enough room for an adult behind their seat." It's also not based on facts or averages. The average sized male pilot will have an inseam of 32" or longer. To reach the pedals comfortably, that dictates a seat position that leaves less than 4" behind the front seat. These are all facts. (And, sad to say, the average female pilot isn't really a consideration; how many folks coming here asking about a short- vs. mid-body Mooney are female pilots? Female pilots represent just 7% of the licensed pilots in the U.S. For the purpose of a general discussion, looking at where the bell curve sits, for the vast majority of average pilots, the short body is not a 4-place airplane.)

"Of course w&b is more likely a limiting factor trying to fly 4 above average adults in any Mooney. With 350 pounds of fuel Mooneys, even long bodies, have only 550-750 pounds for passengers and luggage." I have 1045 usable, and fuel at tabs is 300 lbs. That leaves 745 for passengers and luggage. That's four "FAA standard" adult males, or more likely, two guys and two gals, or two parents and two teenagers. Easily.

I'm 5-11 and just under 200 lb, wearing 32-33" inseams (whatever I can find that fits my waist!). In my C, I sit on a 2" gel cushion to see over the panel for smoother landings. I slide the seat forward til it locks in place, press the bar and go one more hole. My longest leg with 4 adult males was limited to 34 gals (out of 52 gal) for W&B, and lasted just about 2 hours. Pictures are in the computer, I'm not home yet.

But I'm finally out of my 90-day-long annual, and will count the numbet of holes in the rail after flying her home later this evening. 

[Tony Starke]

Regarding comfort in the cabin. Is it just me or does the slight recline of the seat bottom create discomfort for you gentlemen? I always need to make an “adjustment”  after getting settled in otherwise it makes for an uncomfortable flight.

[Marauder]

I win.   Game over

You need to be human to participate in this poll. Big Foots and Yetis don’t qualify.


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[Marauder]

Regarding comfort in the cabin. Is it just me or does the slight recline of the seat bottom create discomfort for you gentlemen? I always need to make an “adjustment”  after getting settled in otherwise it makes for an uncomfortable flight.

If your seats are original, it might be due to compression of the material. I had mine redone with new memory foam. Makes a big difference.


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[mooniac15u]

55 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

The only takeaways I wanted from this discussion are that if you are over my height at around 6’4”, a short body is probably not for you.  Buy a G if you can’t afford an F so that you will be comfortable without regard to rear seat leg room.  Screw them.  They are flying for free anyway.    

I learned something, though.  I hang out with an unusually large segment of our male society.  Seriously.  I have no idea why that is, though.

Jim

 

I should probably clarify my earlier post by saying that even at 6'5" I flew my D for over 700 hours. If you're motivated enough you find a way to make it work. 

[201er]

5 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

There's a lot of BS in the last 2 pages of posts. The average male height in the US is 5'9" according to this study. That's for all men over 20 years old. I would surmise that the average pilot is probably older (and perhaps shorter) than the general population. A few of you know that Al Mooney was well over 6' tall - I don't know how much he had to say about the size of the first M20. 

I've posted these pics from my '66E before - these were not sight seeing hops but long cross country trips. If I were more camera happy I could have posted many more with 4 adults grinning not grimacing. 

https://www.healthline.com/health/average-height-for-men#u.s.-height

Perhaps the original size M20s is not for everyone who want to carry 4 passengers but I suppose those basketball players are the exception. 

 

Bob, you must either have a magic touch or you offered those people a lot of money  to act so comfortable.

Actually what I think nobody mentioned is the pilot's comfort with rear seat passengers on short vs mid body. When I slide forward to be in the pedals for takeoff and landing, there is a ridiculous amount of space behind me. However, except for a local sightseeing flight, I don’t want to sit the whole trip that way. My J allows me to slide back and get comfortable and still allow an adult to sit comfortably behind me. In a short body, someone is getting their knees busted, the only question is in the front or the rear seat depending on seat position! 

[Hank]

9 minutes ago, 201er said:

tually what I think nobody mentioned is the pilot's comfort with rear seat passengers on short vs mid body. When I slide forward to be in the pedals for takeoff and landing, there is a ridiculous amount of space behind me. However, except for a local sightseeing flight, I don’t want to sit the whole trip that way. My J allows me to slide back and get comfortable and still allow an adult to sit comfortably behind me. In a short body, someone is getting their knees busted, the only question is in the front or the rear seat depending on seat position! 

Once I get the seat right and comfortable, it doesn't move again until I get out. Adjusting the seat and my hindquarters three times per flight is REE-dickulois! (Close for Takeoff; back away for cruise; pull back up to land). I don't do my car like that, and one of 'em's got power seats! Who slides their car seats around for driving in town, then resets the seats to cruise down the interstate so they can reset them on the exit ramp???

[201er]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

Once I get the seat right and comfortable, it doesn't move again until I get out. Adjusting the seat and my hindquarters three times per flight is REE-dickulois! (Close for Takeoff; back away for cruise; pull back up to land). I don't do my car like that, and one of 'em's got power seats! Who slides their car seats around for driving in town, then resets the seats to cruise down the interstate so they can reset them on the exit ramp???

Who can stay feet on the pedals for 10 hours straight!? Takes all of a few second to slide back or slide up again. Plus you probably make up for those few seconds in going a knot faster. Sheesh every Mooneyhole knows that! 

[Marauder]

Bob, you must either have a magic touch or you offered those people a lot of money  to act so comfortable.
Actually what I think nobody mentioned is the pilot's comfort with rear seat passengers on short vs mid body. When I slide forward to be in the pedals for takeoff and landing, there is a ridiculous amount of space behind me. However, except for a local sightseeing flight, I don’t want to sit the whole trip that way. My J allows me to slide back and get comfortable and still allow an adult to sit comfortably behind me. In a short body, someone is getting their knees busted, the only question is in the front or the rear seat depending on seat position! 

I do the same. Once I am configured for cruise, I slide the seat all the way back and enjoy being able to stretch my legs.


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[Yetti]

surprised no one has mentioned it this far in, but there is a seat rail mod to drill more holes in the seat rail at the 1.5 inch spacing.   I think it is in the downloads section.  and I am 6' 9"  not 6'7" as previously reported.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Yetti

[rbridges]

6 hours ago, 201er said:

Who can stay feet on the pedals for 10 hours straight!?

I'm still wrapping my mind around that.  You've flown 10 hours nonstop?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Yetti said:

I win.   Game over

The IO-720 of Mooney pilots!  

Clarence