Upgraded Bravo vs. Acclaim

[flybipe]

I'm a new member and 1st time poster.  I've been an aircraft owner for 15 years and am considering my first Mooney.  I live in Portland, OR and am looking for something that I can use to reliably travel to/from Seattle weekly for work by myself (138 NM), take my wife and two teenage kids to breakfast or lunch in places like Sunriver (100 NM) and the San Juans (150 NM), take approximately one trip a month to southern CA for work (750 NM), and of course fly annually to Oshkosh, along with a few other weekend trips along the way to places like the Reno and Truckee (375 NM).  (Kids are also getting close to college age and some weekend trips may be forthcoming up/down the west coast as well.) 

I've got a budget of around $350K and am thinking that a FIKI Bravo or Acclaim might fit the bill, possibly a FIKI Ovation 3.  

I don't know the market on these airplanes as well as I do other makes and I am interested in whether the group thinks the money is better spent on an G1000 Acclaim with a GFC700 (hopefully I could find a WAAS equipped one) or an older non-G1000 Bravo that I completely re-do the panel in with current Garmin avionics including a new Garmin autopilot.  I'm estimating a completely new panel is probably at least $85K, maybe closer to $100K with autopilot so I think the total investment is similar. 

Looking forward to the discussion!

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by flybipe

[KSMooniac]

Welcome!

Look for donkaye's posts here, especially his Bravo panel refurb details. He's an expert Mooney CFII and 20+ year Bravo owner and Garmin super-customer.

You'll have to check with Garmin, but I believe the G5 (and thus GFC500) aren't currently approved for FIKI birds. I don't know if they will be in the future. That obviously impacts any upgrade decisions.

STEC 3100 might be an option, and some birds already have an 55X installed so the upgrade would be easier.

I generally agree with getting a non-G1000 and upgrading to your heart's desire since the factory support for G1000 isn't great. That rules out the Acclaim and later Bravo models.

How strong is your preference for Continental vs Lycoming? An Ovation (IO-550) might be fine for your missions as they can get into the teens reasonably well. Bravos (TIO-540) may or may not run LOP if that matters to you. Eagles were de-rated Ovations (essentially) and can be upgraded to 310 hp, but I don't know if any were made with FIKI.

Don't discount a FIKI 252 or Encore (TSIO-360) either...they might be the best all-round Mooney from the factory.

There are good options...the hard part will be finding the right/best answer!

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[KSMooniac]

I'll add that if you end up with a G1000... Definitely get WAAS as you cannot upgrade a non-WAAS any longer. No more parts/support. GFC700 would obviously be preferable as well as you already know.

All that aside, if I had the budget I'd rather have a non G1000 panel and give it the Don Kaye spa treatment. It gives you the most freedom to upgrade and support in the future. G1000 is locked by Garmin AND Mooney, and the Mooney support is not great.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[DVA]

You may be Interested in learning more about my Bravo @LANCECASPER can tell you more about it’s origin. Head over to the forum about things for sale for more or pm me. Thx. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

The Bravo is a 2 person full fuel airplane.  It is a 3 person 60 gallon airplane.  It is a 4 person 45 gallon airplane.  With FIKI, take off at least 15 gallons from these numbers.  These numbers apply to all the long bodies including the Acclaim.  If you're planning on long trips with 4 people, then the Bravo or any Mooney may not be the airplane for you.  However, I've had mine for 26 years and would not have any other single engine piston airplane.  It's the best single engine piston airplane out there in my opinion.

I love the avionics package I put in my plane.  When the GFC 500 becomes available next year, it is going in.  In the meantime I'm ordering another new panel, and installing the Garmin GCU 485 Controller.  Setting altitude and vertical preselect is just not acceptable to me on the TXi alone.  When the GFC 500 comes out, I'll go back to my current panel and sell the 485, since the GFC 500 does the same thing.

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

The Bravo is a 2 person full fuel airplane.  It is a 3 person 60 gallon airplane.  It is a 4 person 45 gallon airplane.  With FIKI, take off at least 15 gallons from these numbers.  These numbers apply to all the long bodies including the Acclaim.  If you're planning on long trips with 4 people, then the Bravo or any Mooney may not be the airplane for you.  However, I've had mine for 26 years and would not have any other single engine piston airplane.  It's the best single engine piston airplane out there in my opinion.

As an Ovation guy, not much more I can add.  To the OP, I would stress considering O2 and FiKi as mandatory no matter what model you choose...along with WAAS, as @KSMooniac mentioned.  I grew up and flew in the Seattle area extensively, and can vouch for the need for all three of these technologies after making many of the trips you mentioned in multiple types.  Although the 310hp Ovation will get you comfortably to and from those destinations and more, you can’t go wrong with an Acclaim or a TLS/Bravo.  They’ll allow you a bit more altitude capability over the Ovation as you know.

@flybipe, what are you flying now?  Best of luck in your purchase, and let us know what you end up with.

Steve

[M016576]

Like Don alludes to- the only limiting factor for a Bravo is the useful load- but that can be mitigated with fuel load.

i flew a TKS J with an IO-550 on it (missile STC) out of Klamath falls for 6 years.  Similar in performance to an ovation.  What I found was this- crossing the cascades in the winter can be pretty dicey- clouds tend to build up into the mid to high flight levels- and they carry lots of ice (probably due to the winds/ocean).  A Bravo might be able to get you over the icing levels, though, if you’re OK with O2.  (From my experience- most ice in that area was 12-17K)

if you can pick one or the other, and cost is no issue, sounds like a Bravo is what you want.  If you’re ok in the mid teens and below, and don’t “have to” get somewhere in bad weather- the ovation will work well.  The ovation is fiki, and capable, but with the size of the terrain out there, should you need to cross it, and the high MEA’s- a Bravo’s turbo gives you an option to climb out of ice that us NA folks don’t have.

check the useful loads, and the status of that TKS system before you venture into that pacNW ice... it builds VERY quickly.

[FoxMike]

I have owned a Bravo for 15 years.  You asked about Bravo vs. Acclaim.  If you fly an Acclaim like the salesman describes you will be topping the engine every 300hrs or so.  If you use less power the cylinders will last longer.  The Lycoming engine in the Bravo has a system that pours oil around the exhaust valve guide.  The "wet head" does a good job of cooling the exhaust valve and adds lots of life to the cylinders.  I have just over two thousand trouble free hours on mine. Downside to using high power on the Lyc. is the exhaust pipes crack. High power at high altitude adds measurably to the cost of operation of either airplane.  My take on the Bravo is that it is the best bang for the buck in a high performance airplane.  Being an old guy I do not mind flying steam gauges.  I have read that  getting compliant with ADS-B with a G1000 is problematic so I would think  you not want to open up your bank account  to high robbery in the next year or so.  I have a KFC 150 autopilot and have had not problems with it.  I have had the KI 256 and KI 525 overhauled.  They went 1800 before overhaul.  The KFC 150 seems to be plenty adequate.  I keep my airplane in a heated hangar which maybe one reason why these gauges have done so well.  As was pointed out earlier neither model carries much.  You really need to stick someone up for a ride.  The long body Mooneys are more difficult to land than the smaller models.  Plan to find an instructor who has experience in the long body.  Any CFI would not be a good choice.  Good Luck!

[Niko182]

Id say older bravo or ovation with FIKI. there are 3 or 4 eagles that have FIKI, but I wouldn't bet my luck finding one of those. One of those came for sale about a year ago and it had FIKI but still had 1080lbs useful load. Anywhere up to around 15K bravo or Ovation doesn't matter, they both will still climb decently. In my eagle, I still see like 5 to 6 hundred ft per minute at 13k. its not a bravo, but Its pretty good for an NA bird. Nearly all the Long body moonies are some of the best long range 2 person cross country machines. I can top of my tanks with 100 gallons and I still have 530 lbs of useful load. and that should get me easily over 1200nm if I cruise at 170knots and 12 gallons per hour.

Lycoming or Continental. Pick your poison. Whichever way you go it still isnt cheap.

[carusoam]

That was easy...

Your mission is quite important.  When you intend to fly every day.  Warm or cold.

1) Decide If Turbo is the tool to fit your mission...  continued fast climbs above 10k’, turbo is important...

2) Decide if Continental is better for you vs. Lycoming... I like the 310hp, balanced air intakes, the pair of snails and inter-coolers would be good too.

3) If flying around below the O2 levels makes sense, Go O!

4) Climbing to 10k’ is fast with a 310hp Continental...

5) Nothing beats a modern panel with a G500txi...

A nice place to shop for nice Mooneys is in TX... All American Aircraft’s current listings are here... they keep a large inventory (compared to anyone else)

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1

I like the 310hp O, I would add Fiki and O2 for every day use...

Look at Don Kaye’s picture album... he has done a great job of defining and describing what he put in his panel...  and filled the shelf in the back too...

Look at @StevenL757 for a great example of how to update an O’s panel...

Enjoy the hunt!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[flybipe]

Thanks for the rapid and helpful comments!  Currently I'm flying a Pitts S-2B, and I've had a series of single seat Pitts before that, but it's time to add a traveling airplane to the hangar.  A change in roles at work has me traveling to Seattle almost every week and since a portion of my week is already used to commute by aircraft, I might as well take advantage of the new job to do it in my own airplane instead of by airline.  I used to fly Part 135 Charter in 300/400 series Twin Cessnas and I flew an Aerostar for a company for a couple of years too.  I also used to broker aircraft for the local flight school owner and two of my most memorable delivery flights were in a 2000 Ovation and a 2001 Bravo, both to the East Coast from Oregon.  (The Ovation - N1012P - went on to twice circumnavigate the globe with new owners.)  I demonstrated each of them for a couple of months before selling them and really enjoyed their handling.  I did however, get into one of the worst icing encounters of my life in the Ovation (non-TKS) over Idaho and had to make an iced up landing at Twin Falls in January with no forward visibility.  Hence my desire to have the FIKI.

I admire the efficiency of the IO-550's, but I've only ever owned Lycomings, and I've gotten to know them inside and out pretty well. 

I would of course love to have as much useful load as possible, but realistically, if the flight is more than an hour, my wife and daughter are taking the airlines.  My son does like to fly with me, and he's done Oshkosh with me for the last 6 years in a borrowed Cessna, so I'm envisioning any flight over an hour is likely only going to have 1-2 people on board.

I imagine the flight to/from Seattle could easily be done with good predictability in a FIKI Ovation since the entire flight is in the valley between the Coastal and Cascade mountain ranges.  But the MEA's are often 14,000+ going east or south/southeast and a that's where I'm thinking the turbo would be nice.

Either way I go, some of these early comments confirm my thoughts that I'd probably be happier with a non-G1000 panel if I can find a nice pre-GX airframe, which would mean Bravo or Ovation...or certainly if I went with an Acclaim, hold out for one with WAAS and a GFC700.

Airplane shopping is fun!

Edited December 1, 2018 by flybipe
typo

[Bravoman]

I love my Bravo and have had it for 5 years now. I agree with Don’s assessment above with the additional comment that the rear seats are certainly not for large/tall people even putting aside useful load considerations. When buying my Mooney I chose the Bravo because like you I have only owned Lycoming and am partial to the brand. Mine isn’t FIKI but if I lived in your neck of the woods and was using it for weekly business travel I would have that as a requirement too. I still have not ruled out the possibility of adding FIKI at some point but it certainly isn’t in the immediate plans. 

The Bravo is incredibly capable and tons of fun to fly. Some people think Mooney’s are hard to land and long bodies in particular but I find that it is the easiest plane to get consistent greasers I have ever flown. My Bravo is the only Mooney I have ever flown, so I can’t  compare to the short or mid bodys. For what you get the Bravo really should be twice the price. Did I say I love my Bravo?

[MIm20c]

Lots of experience, extensive trial flights, a well defined mission, and previous aircraft sales experience.  Not much I can add to help you search for the perfect aircraft. 

2000-2004 ovations and bravos have engine gauges that fail frequently and are not fixable/replaceable. This means a new panel is required when replacing them. 

They also have the BK 225 AP which is one of the best AP’s out there. The control it has over the aircraft is amazing. However, it doesn’t play well with the newer glass panels in two ways. First it cannot take advantage of the integrated attitude pre select via the gad43e. Second it has a unique requirement (along with the 140) that forces extra button pushes during certain approaches. 

The 2000-2004 ovations had a thin two blade prop that is very efficient but terrible getting off the ground and early climb. This can be rectified with the new thin blad top prop option. 

I can remember the year but at some point in the 90’s the bravo upgraded the interior which is really nice. 

The amazining thing about the long bodies is you can find O2 and FIKI ($75k option!) for pennies on the dollar (around 5-15k higher). I would avoid the FIKI / AC combo as it gives up too much speed and UL. 

Good luck searching!

[Danb]

Mike actually getting ADSB in the Bravo G1000 is not problematic nor any more expensive than other comparable units, I have Garmin 345 in mine for about $6000, also WAAS was installed for about $23,000 or so, I feel my Bravo like a few others on the forum G1000's are highly equipped and ready for 2020 mandate ie. ADSB  and WAAS. Our G1000's have a terrible rap, I personally would not trade mine for any of the smaller screen units, it's up to you the buyer and user. I think most Acclaim and Ovation G folks that have updated would give a similar response. Many of us went through hell to get the companies to comply with our requests which took over 10 years of pushing Mooney. I'm very satisified we went through the trouble. Garmin has now screwed the remaining G1000 owners by making the WAAS units unavailable, there must be a special place in xx for them. 

[Mark at Delta Aviation]

I’m the principal owner of Delta Aviation, the new Mooney dealer for the Western US. We are very active in the pre-owned long body Mooney market. I am based in Boise and have reps in SoCal, Phoenix and Denver.

With your budget, you are very close to getting into an Acclaim with TKS, GFC700 and WAAS. A G1000 Bravo won’t have a GFC700 and is very unlikely to have WAAS. If you are willing to give up the G-1000 you can buy the very best of the King AP equipped Bravos (easier to do before you get spoiled - we’ve worked on Don lately and while he’s not ready to admit it yet, we know we’ve made real progress:). You’ll also have plenty of money left over for those panel upgrades, but you’ll be maintaining an older airframe and it’s possible you’ll find you don’t like the math when it comes time to sell. 

Considering your previous experiences with the Bravo and the Ovation, perhaps the best way I could be a resource is to arrange an opportunity for you to fly an Acclaim. An Ovation simply won’t compare to an Acclaim, but one with the 310 HP STC will likely beat a Bravo in a climb from sea level to 15K. In cruise at 15k however, the Ovation will be 10-15 knots slower than a Bravo and 30 knots slower than an Acclaim. From the mid teens up on into the flight levels, the Bravo really starts to shine. 

An Acclaim, simply does not acknowledge altitude. Is fast down low and climbs from sea level to FL250 in 21 minutes. Its best rate of climb occurs through 14k, due to the Scimitar’s application specific prop design which is optimized for the mid teens. The 550’s critical altitude is its service ceiling - both at 25k with 280 HP still available. You can cruise climb an Acclaim at 140-145 knots IAS and see 180 knots true airspeed as you climb through 12k or so, and over 200 knots TAS as you reach the lower flight levels, while maintaining 800-900 fpm in the climb with CHTs in the 350 area - all with no cowl flaps. 

The Continental 550 used in the Acclaim (and Ovation) has a modern, balanced downdraft induction system. In most of the Acclaims you’ll find the modern induction system paired with volume matched cylinders and flow matched heads. This results in EGTs peaking very close to each other, provides smooth lean of peak operation, incredible efficiencies and a 30+ degree reduction in CHTs that run in the 330 to 340 area in high speed cruise (30.5/2500). 

Bravos and Ovations are great, but an Acclaim is a pure animal!  

Let me know if I can be a resource.

Mark Woods
Delta Aviation
M |  810.417.9950
www.deltaaviation.com

Note: The pics below are of a clean Acclaim (without TKS or AC) and it was one of our faster demos . Expect a 5 knot penalty down low and 10 knots up high.
 

 

 

[Mark at Delta Aviation]

 

Update: Sorry, the pics did not upload in a high enough res to be readable. 

Pic 1 is ROP - 224 kts TAS / 167 IAS

Pic 2 is LOP - 215 kts TAS / 161 IAS

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Mark at Delta Aviation
delete duplicate text & typo

[exM20K]

Mark:

What's up with the TIT in the LOP picture? 1300???

-de

[Niko182]

1333

[carusoam]

Picture resolution looks fine to me...  iPad. Clicked on the photo to see it better...

Welcome aboard, Mark.

Your technical input is greatly appreciated.  Please use caution on being any too commercial...  (not everyone has the same appreciation when it comes to the commercial aspect.)

There is an area that is best suited for that... 

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I can remember the year but at some point in the 90’s the bravo upgraded the interior which is really nice. 

In 94 the Ovation came out and had the new interior so I think the 94 Bravos and newer had the new fiberglass interior. I know my '96 Bravo (serial number 209) had it.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

1333

While in both pictures CHT and EGT look good - and clearly that is a superbly fast airplane on superb fuel flows whether LOP or ROP, its a head scratcher as to why TiT would be so low 1333 when LOP but so high, 1671 when ROP.  How can they be so very different and what seems otherwise to be reasonable settings.

[Danb]

Erik I guess you buy cylinders at 300 hours in the first pic and the second one goes to tbo or whatever 1300 tit?.

[Mark at Delta Aviation]

It’s a TIT probe or an indication issue. I never notice it in the pic before and don’t recall seeing it in the aircraft. The TIT setting will be the exact same temp running ROP or LOP, for a given MP/RPM setting because you (or the G1000) tracks peak TIT and then you turn the red knob, one way or the other, until the TIT temp drops by 50 degrees. The fuel flow is correct in the LOP pic and consistent with a 50 LOP setting at max recommended cruise (30.5”/2500 rpm). So It’s just an erroneous TIT indication. The CHTs are great either way you choose to run it, and they never hit 400 degrees, even in the thin air. The cowling guys really did a great job.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Mark at Delta Aviation

[aviatoreb]

3 minutes ago, Mark at Delta Aviation said:

It’s a TIT prob or an indication issue. I never notice it in the pic before and don’t recall seeing it in the aircraft. The TIT setting will be the exact same temp running ROP or LOP, for a given MP/RPM setting because you (or the G1000) tracks peak TIT and then you turn the red knob, one way or the other, until the TIT temp drops by 50 degrees. The fuel flow is correct in the LOP pic and consistent with a 50 LOP setting at max recommended cruise (30.5”/2500 rpm). So It’s just an erroneous TIT indication. The CHTs are great either way you choose to run it, and they never hit 400 degrees, even in the thin air. The cowling guys really did a great job.

That's what I figured because none of the other indications would suggest that the engine was running at near peak at a high power setting and even if it were running at peak, I am doubting that you could run the engine 350 degrees lean of peak in the lean of peak picture.

Very impressive performance all the way around.

[alextstone]

I owned (or more accurately, the bank owned and I flew for a fee each month) an Acclaim from 2007 to 2010.  Last summer, I purchased a '95 Bravo.  Both aircraft have been a joy to fly.  If I could afford to, I would definitely go back to the Acclaim however.   The GFC 700, climb performance, cruise performance and simple engine management are amazing!  That said, the Bravo, for half the money is a lot more than half the utility and fun.  Whichever you choose, calculate an operating and maintenance budget for each, then double it for the Acclaim and triple it for the Bravo.  These planes are not cheap to operate and maintain properly.  

Please post pics of your choice!