GFC500 Update

[Marauder]

What I don't understand is why Garmin "borrowed" an M model to certify the GFC500 when Garmin owns a legacy Ovation (pre-G1000). Why didn't they just install the GFC500 in their own Ovation?
Maybe they didn't want to lose ILS capability if the GPS signal was lost, or maybe they didn't want to install a G5 or two into an already crowded panel.

Or maybe it’s tied up certifying the G3 Touch for Mooneys.


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[Niko182]

24 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Or maybe it’s tied up certifying the G3 Touch for Mooneys.


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I doubt garmin would certify the g3x. It doesnt make sense, business wise. The g500txi is selling really well, and as much as dynon is stating their system is coming soon, its still a couple years out realistically for the mooneys at least. When you look at it from a financial point of view from garmin, why would you certify the g3x. It practically offers what the g500txi does for less. Theyd practically be shooting themselves in the leg.

[ArtVandelay]

I doubt garmin would certify the g3x. It doesnt make sense, business wise. The g500txi is selling really well, and as much as dynon is stating their system is coming soon, its still a couple years out realistically for the mooneys at least. When you look at it from a financial point of view from garmin, why would you certify the g3x. It practically offers what the g500txi does for less. Theyd practically be shooting themselves in the leg.

Not now, but if they didn’t do the TXI, then they could have reduced development/manufacturing costs by consolidating.
Only if the competition forces them to lower their costs will they.


Tom

[m20kmooney]

6 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I doubt garmin would certify the g3x. It doesnt make sense, business wise. The g500txi is selling really well

I'm not so sure the txi is selling really well. Or to put it another way, to whom is it selling? How many have been installed in Mooneys for example? Only a few here on ms. If you exclude the one who is a coowner of an aviation shop and the other that was an upgrade of an original G500, how many new installations have there been? A couple? Is Garmin happy about how its selling? Has it met expectations? I don't know. Do you know? I was going to install a txi but last minute decided to wait till Oshkosh. I really think they will certify the G3X touch. It is sufficiently different and I think it will sell off the shelves once certified. I think the txi has really tested Garmin's pricing philosophy. The G3X touch will make a lot more sense and will sell very well to a lot of airframes whose value just can't justify txi costs.

Edited February 7, 2019 by m20kmooney

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, m20kmooney said:

I'm not so sure the txi is selling really well. Or to put it another way, to whom is it selling? How many have been installed in Mooneys for example? Only a few here on ms. If you exclude the one who is a coowner of an aviation shop and the other that was an upgrade of an original G500, how many new installations have there been? A couple? Is Garmin happy about how its selling? Has it met expectations? I don't know. Do you know? I was going to install a txi but last minute decided to wait till Oshkosh. I really think they will certify the G3X touch. It is sufficiently different and I think it will sell off the shelves once certified. I think the txi has really tested Garmin's pricing philosophy. The G3X touch will make a lot more sense and will sell very well to a lot of airframes whose value just can't justify txi costs.

Go on over to Beechtalk and people are waiting in line to install the TXi.        

Just a fraction of the Mooney owners are on Mooneyspace and Mooney owners have the reputation in the industry of being late adopters (cheapskates). Ones we know of for sure that have installed the TXi are @John B @donkaye @Rmag @Steve Skinner and @Bryan is in line for his. @smccray , a former Mooney owner who is on Mooneyspace just put one in his Bonanza. @Junkman  and @Niko182 are strongly considering it. For it being a new product and shops being full with ADS-B upgrades I don't think that's so bad

The rumor about Garmin certifying the G3X has been wishful thinking for years. When they came out with the touchscreen TXi all of that went away.  Garmin has a certified line and an experimental line of products. Some of the features from the experimental line works its way into the certified line.  I think we are much more likely to see a little Richard Simmons Jr. running around at Oshkosh this year than a certified Garmin G3X.

 

[donkaye]

I see no upside for Garmin to certify the G3X.  It would just take  away sales from its certified products like the G500 TXi.  Comparing the legacy G500 to the G500 TXi; the G500 legacy in many regards is better than the TXi.  PFD tapes are much bigger and easier to read.  The PFD and MFD are equally sized unlike the TXi with its 60/40 size.  Altitude and V/S preselect are more easily accomplished  on the legacy unit without an extra control unit.  Unless you like the PFD to the right of the MFD, in my opinion, the GCU 485 is necessary to more easily control the TXi.  The TXi installation should be easier and less expensive than the legacy installation because both the AHRS and ADC are plug-in modules on the TXi thus saving a ton of wiring for the extra boxes associated with the legacy unit.  The TXi has better resolution, but it really is't that noticeable as compared to the legacy G500.

I did the upgrade to the TXi because Garmin offered a discount to owners of the legacy G500.  Not including labor, the box was about $8,000, so I couldn't pass it up.  After the screw up of not purchasing the GCU 485 right from the start, that addition cost an additional $4,500.  Knowing what I know now, would I have done the upgrade?  Probably, but if you are thinking about the upgrade, not doing it would not be the end of the world.  Doing it and not including the GCU 485 will make the upgrade a big disappointment.

As mentioned above, new installations should be less expensive and time consuming than the original.  When all is said and done, there is nothing like a full glass cockpit.  Comparing what we had to work with 20 years ago, we are living in a new world today.

[aviatoreb]

26 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I see no upside for Garmin to certify the G3X.  It would just take  away sales from its certified products like the G500 TXi.  Comparing the legacy G500 to the G500 TXi; the G500 legacy in many regards is better than the TXi.  PFD tapes are much bigger and easier to read.  The PFD and MFD are equally sized unlike the TXi with its 60/40 size.  Altitude and V/S preselect are more easily accomplished  on the legacy unit without an extra control unit.  Unless you like the PFD to the right of the MFD, in my opinion, the GCU 485 is necessary to more easily control the TXi.  The TXi installation should be easier and less expensive than the legacy installation because both the AHRS and ADC are plug-in modules on the TXi thus saving a ton of wiring for the extra boxes associated with the legacy unit.  The TXi has better resolution, but it really is't that noticeable as compared to the legacy G500.

I did the upgrade to the TXi because Garmin offered a discount to owners of the legacy G500.  Not including labor, the box was about $8,000, so I couldn't pass it up.  After the screw up of not purchasing the GCU 485 right from the start, that addition cost an additional $4,500.  Knowing what I know now, would I have done the upgrade?  Probably, but if you are thinking about the upgrade, not doing it would not be the end of the world.  Doing it and not including the GCU 485 will make the upgrade a big disappointment.

As mentioned above, new installations should be less expensive and time consuming than the original.  When all is said and done, there is nothing like a full glass cockpit.  Comparing what we had to work with 20 years ago, we are living in a new world today.

price vs demand curves.  Sometimes there is the possibility to make more money if price is much lower if it causes the demand to be sufficiently high.

[Niko182]

When the txi series came out I had the impression that they were certified versions of the G3X. They look practically the same, and a lot of the systems are the same. If garmin is going to certify the g3x, theyre gonna have to remove functions from it in order to sell it cheaper than the txi. What functions are they going to have to throttle. And when they do throttle some functions, everyone is going to complain, and want something better. Additinally a big portion of the price is labor. The 10 inch TXI sells for 12 to 13k at most places and the 7 goes for like 10k. Dual G5's are 5.2k. What are they gonna sell the g3x for. Pricewise, it doesnt fit in their catalog. As for the GCU485, doesnt the gfc500 do the same as that unit, as in control inputs.

[MIm20c]

Garmin is selling a ton of g5’s. I have a feeling Garmin installers are going to get really fast at putting in the gfc500. Anyone who has had major panel work done in the past will not blink at the $12k increase in cost from the g5’s to the 10 inch Txi.

[hypertech]

Its not the G500txi cost itself that is my holdup.  Its all the stuff that goes with it that push the price up pretty high.  You need a pretty expensive box to interface the autopilot.  And then you need a pretty expensive stand by instrument since the G5 cannot be installed in FIKI.  When you include the whole picture, the price doubles.

[Niko182]

1 minute ago, hypertech said:

Its not the G500txi cost itself that is my holdup.  Its all the stuff that goes with it that push the price up pretty high.  You need a pretty expensive box to interface the autopilot.  And then you need a pretty expensive stand by instrument since the G5 cannot be installed in FIKI.  When you include the whole picture, the price doubles.

Which will make the price difference even smaller between a g3x if it ever gets certified and a g500txi. Youre still gonna need all of that stuff anyway.

[ArtVandelay]

Which will make the price difference even smaller between a g3x if it ever gets certified and a g500txi. Youre still gonna need all of that stuff anyway.

If you have a G5 to drive GFC500 or TT and all you want is glass replacement of the 6 pack, that’s all, I think a 7” glass for $3-5 would be desirable. Not everyone needs all that stuff.


Tom

[Niko182]

1 minute ago, ArtVandelay said:

If you have a G5 to drive GFC500 or TT and all you want is glass replacement of the 6 pack, that’s all, I think a 7” glass for $3-5 would be desirable. Not everyone needs all that stuff.


Tom

That doesnt exist. Anywhere. The experemental g3x touch goes for 5.5k. A certified version would be at least 50% more. Example being the g5 experimental is 1300. The g5 certified is 2300. A full 6 pack replacement for 3 to 5k isnt real and wont be for at least a couple years.

[Marauder]

Which will make the price difference even smaller between a g3x if it ever gets certified and a g500txi. Youre still gonna need all of that stuff anyway.

I think you need to look at the all in cost to determine market fit. If the TXi base product is $12k and you GAD it up with options and it becomes a $25k to $30k solution plus installation, how many Mooney owners will spend that kind of money upgrading an older planes? The G5 clearly has been adopted well in the older Mooney population of planes and if a properly priced G3 line fit squarely in between the G5 and the TXi, I think to Erik’s point, there is a market. Yeah, it might mean they need to configure the products to up-sell more capable units to customers with deeper pockets, but they also need to address market opportunities where the pockets aren’t so deep. The G5 was the first step in this direction.

Don has a Bravo and he already told us he has a $100k panel. Do you think he would step down to a G3? I don’t.

Garmin is pretty savvy at market opportunities but they are sometimes late to respond market trends (think dedicated automobile GPS units).


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[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, hypertech said:

Its not the G500txi cost itself that is my holdup.  Its all the stuff that goes with it that push the price up pretty high.  You need a pretty expensive box to interface the autopilot.  And then you need a pretty expensive stand by instrument since the G5 cannot be installed in FIKI.  When you include the whole picture, the price doubles.

Garmin is working on getting the g5 FIKI certified. The expensive box is only needed with a AI driven system.  The only extra expense is if you have a floating panel (older Beechcraft) the hardware needs to be remote mounted and/or a new panel if you were not planning on that. 

[hypertech]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

Garmin is working on getting the g5 FIKI certified. The expensive box is only needed with a AI driven system.  The only extra expense is if you have a floating panel (older Beechcraft) the hardware needs to be remote mounted and/or a new panel if you were not planning on that. 

I've had many phone calls and posts / messages with them.  I've been told everything between maybe next year to never for that actually happening.  Would be great news if true.

[khedrei]

8 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Go on over to Beechtalk and people are waiting in line to install the TXi.        

Just a fraction of the Mooney owners are on Mooneyspace and Mooney owners have the reputation in the industry of being late adopters (cheapskates). Ones we know of for sure that have installed the TXi are @John B @donkaye @Rmag @Steve Skinner and @Bryan is in line for his. @smccray , a former Mooney owner who is on Mooneyspace just put one in his Bonanza. @Junkman  and @Niko182 are strongly considering it. For it being a new product and shops being full with ADS-B upgrades I don't think that's so bad

The rumor about Garmin certifying the G3X has been wishful thinking for years. When they came out with the touchscreen TXi all of that went away.  Garmin has a certified line and an experimental line of products. Some of the features from the experimental line works its way into the certified line.  I think we are much more likely to see a little Richard Simmons Jr. running around at Oshkosh this year than a certified Garmin G3X.

 

You can add my name to that small list. The planned list anyway. And now I'm wondering if I need the external control unit. 

We postponed the install to wait for the GFC500. Is it true that as long ad I have that I wont really need the external control unit. What's so difficult about not having it?

[smccray]

I expect something is coming based on the next round of experimental avionics that will also be available for some certified aircraft. I went ahead with with the G500txi based in part on the lack of GFC500 availability. I expect the next round of Garmin avionics to expand on the GFC500 certified aircraft, and the A36 isn’t on that list. 

It’s just a guess- I don’t have any inside information. I have a suspicion that the certification of the GFC500 in the Bravo could include more than just a G5 and a GFC500. Call in spidey sense- zero information.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, smccray said:

It’s just a guess- I don’t have any inside information. I have a suspicion that the certification of the GFC500 in the Bravo could include more than just a G5 and a GFC500. Call in spidey sense- zero information.

The Mooney M20M they used for the test got one G5 as part of the standard install and I believe the owner of the airplane paid for a second G5.

 

[MIm20c]

I do like the fact that Garmin certified the g5 to backup the txi display units. However, I wish they would have used the cheaper servos on smaller planes but utilize the gfc600 to drive all the certified units. The servos are the expensive items on the 600 system. $4k a piece vs $2k. The price delta on the control unit is probably about the same as the required g5...

Edited February 8, 2019 by MIm20c

[smccray]

26 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The Mooney M20M they used for the test got one G5 as part of the standard install and I believe the owner of the airplane paid for a second G5.

 

Yep- Garmin advertised $30-40k in value associated with using the Bravo for testing- for a G5 and a GFC500.  I don’t know much, but I do know that in aviation $13k in equipment doesn’t turn into $30k in value.  It may be nothing- I’ll even say I’m probably wrong- but...maybe not!

[m20kmooney]

There are aircraft owners who are reluctant to install a txi due to cost, but would if it made financial sense for their airplane. A certified G3X touch would come in at roughly half the cost of the txi. There is a large market segment but the option doesn’t exist. The choices right now are: do nothing, or txi. Nothing in between. I predict a certified G3X touch come Oshkosh. 

[Bryan]

Half the cost of a TXi is twin G5’s; that option exists today. If you add the autopilot adapters to each, still (half), so the demand is being met today. 

Remember the cost of installing is just about going to be equal on all: new panel, new wiring, new interfaces.

You want a G3X for a certified aircraft but at experimental prices; I do, too, but it is not going to happen, this year or next, unless the FAA throws out that reg.

We can revisit this again during OSH this year and next to prove it.

If you want something better than the G5 but less expensive than the TXi, but near the same install cost: Two screen Aspen Pro (Max)

[Marauder]

All of this G3 discussion is academic. Someone at Garmin who should be looking at market trends (which includes looking at competitive market share) is making investment decisions on the next gen of offerings.

If you look at the G5, it is clearly aimed at the Aspen market. But it is a product with a limited feature set. I guarantee you that at Garmin some General Manager said “let’s not put too many features in this product or we will lose potential TXi opportunities”.

What I am disappointed at is that certain competitive situations like the introduction of the Avidyne 440/540/550 should have helped keep those prices in check and even lowered them. Instead, those product prices are in line with Garmin’s GTN offerings. A 440 sells for around $11k and a 650 for $10,100 (list).


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[donkaye]

I have chosen to use Garmin Pilot as my main EFB aviation App, but I do have a Basic FF subscription as a backup.  One of the things I like about many of my student's FF app is the aural announcements of entering, leaving runways and runway lengths.  I have not been able to duplicate that with my subscription.  Can I assume that to get that functionality you need a Pro subscription?