M20F Fuel Stick - I know I know

[Browncbr1]

Here is my stick for 67 F without bladders.  

Just beginning to wet the bottom of the stick is 7 gallons.   25gallons is at the bottom of the tiny hole in the tab.  

 

Only intended to give approximate idea...   always use conservative reserves.   

[Shiny moose]

8 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

We started with the Aerospace Logic FL202 with the legacy floats.  Worked well for awhile but became so unreliable that we decided to get the Cies floats.  They are deadly accurate.  The only time we've had problems is when one of our ground wires was not securely attached.  Same gauge, different floats.

Bob,

did you state your using the SAME FL202 with legacy float as with the Cies floats, if that’s the case I would be installing one, then when my floats act up I would replace the floats.

[sdflysurf]

10 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Here is my stick for 67 F without bladders.  

Just beginning to wet the bottom of the stick is 7 gallons.   25gallons is at the bottom of the tiny hole in the tab.  

 

Only intended to give approximate idea...   always use conservative reserves.   

YES!  Thank you!!!!!  I have an M20F which has 32Gal tanks on each side.  This is EXACTLY What I was looking for in this thread.  A measuring tape right next to a Gallon representation of what is actually in the tank and explanation of where to rest the wooden stick to measure. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

 

Now since it is "my" thread I'll make a couple of soap-box comments:

1) Thank you all for posting, I love that I can come here with mooney specific questions and get a ton of advice.

2) I don't think the Fuelstik option will work for me because it only has the 27Gal per tank printable scale. :(

3) CIES is doing a great thing and makes a lot of sense!  I mean, when I tell non-pilot people that I use a stick to measure a wet tank of fuel on my plane they think I am a caveman.  When was the last time you saw anyone using a stick to measure a tank in their car at the gas station?  exactly.  Now do I want to pay the price of a used car to get that rocket-science technology?  Its on the short list...but I'm hoping the cost will come down some how.  (I know I know - low volume production in the aviation industry combined with FAA and insurance hurdles in a sue-happy society doesn't seem to allow for low-cost aviation products so we'll just hope for some change later down the line).

4) Why do people feel the need to be rude in this forum toward anyone?  I mean, if CIES wants to put a plug in for a product that works for the aviation industry/mooney pilots whats wrong with that?  If you don't like the post then don't get butt-hurt, just move on, don't whine, keep it to yourself and keep the conversation clean.  We can all agree to disagree politely if need be.

5) For now, I will be measuring with this stick from Browncbr1, then adding fuel to accomodate my flight plus 1.5hrs - setting a personal minimum, if I need more fuel then I schedule a stop in my trip, that works since I have long legs and need to stretch anyway!  In the future, I am hoping CIES or someone will be creating an accurate fuel sending system to replace my current system (which I don't trust) at a more manageable price than what is currently advertised.  I am new to this industry but I am a control systems engineer so maybe I'll come up with one even. :)

[MyNameIsNobody]

Seriously people are utterly amazing.  I try and help you by providing what you wanted (albeit for a 26 gallon tank) and the guy makes shit out of me and I am a dick for coming back at him?  There is a place to market on this website.  That is EXACTLY what he was doing.  I would not have given a shit except that he specifically called MY POST out (you know the one where I responded to a request you made) and I am the unpleasant one.  Passive aggressive is the worst kind of “mean” out there.  HE KNOWS IT NOW, if he didn’t know it then.

No minds were changed here.  Face palm....

Glad you got your “stick”.  Now go and stick it.  That’s a play on words.  Butt hurt.  Now THAT’s funny.

[sdflysurf]

6 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Seriously people are utterly amazing.  I try and help you by providing what you wanted (albeit for a 26 gallon tank) and the guy makes shit out of me and I am a dick for coming back at him?  There is a place to market on this website.  That is EXACTLY what he was doing.  I would not have given a shit except that he specifically called MY POST out (you know the one where I responded to a request you made) and I am the unpleasant one.  Passive aggressive is the worst kind of “mean” out there.  HE KNOWS IT NOW, if he didn’t know it then.

No minds were changed here.  Face palm....

Glad you got your “stick”.  Now go and stick it.  That’s a play on words.  Butt hurt.  Now THAT’s funny.

I thank you for your stick measurement and I find it extremely valuable that you posted it for the 26Gal guys/gals out there.

I think you missed that the CIES guy was replying/pointing to "ALL" of us for using a stick.....and that is his sales/marketing "schtick".   Don't let it get you flustered....we have enough distractions as a pilot right! :)

[carusoam]

What people use... and what we know...

1) Fuel floats when working well, are calibrated when in level flight....

2) A calibrated stick works well, the calibration is valid while on the ground... great for filling the tank with a partial load.

3) there is a known OHer for gauges and floats if spending a few bucks on improvements to the old system makes sense...

4) Cies is a known supplier for improvements over the old analog float system...

5) Adding the mechanical gauges into a tank access panel is pretty cool to. These mechanical floats are calibrated for reading fuel level while on the ground.  Perfect for partial filling of the tank... probably not as precise as a good stick. Five gallon increments...

6) I assume the Cies app would add a level of convenience and accuracy while the tanks are being filled... that would be sweet!  Two calibration curves are physically possible... one for filling, one for flying... accuracy for filling while on the ground. I’m all for that!

7) I’m not sure how combative posts are going to improve on any of this...

8) Some of our vendors are actually adding to our experience. Sure, it can be expensive and takes a boat load of coordination to install...but they answer a boat load of questions about how existing floats work and what their challenges may be...

9) we have a vendor section for commercial activities.  That doesn’t mean we don’t want them to participate properly in discussions...

10) We should celebrate that we have one method to accurately fill the tanks... and another one to tell how much fuel is in the tanks while flying... have at least one of each...

11) having a FF / totalizer is an excellent device to back-up the logic being visualized by the fuel gauges...

12) having 1% accuracy in all aspects of fuel level, from start to finish, is a spectacular step in the right direction...

How about those blue silicone cap seals...?  (Intentional topic deflection)

PP summary only, all stuff I learned here on MS...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

I love this place. Where else can people argue over STICKS and CiES. I "survived" 26 years using a STICK, a timer and fuel flow. I did STICK it to myself a few times over those years by doing stupid STICK tricks like skydvrboy said (STICKing with a cruise fuel burn during a requested climb). Heck, I even read the STICK wrong once. 

The STICK is simple. But after flying with the CiES senders for a year,  you get to appreciate the trust you have in the readings. If I see I need 20 gallons per side and I am at 10, the fuel pump is all I need to STICK money into.

At least we aren't talking about STICKing valves.

[Marauder]

8 minutes ago, carusoam said:

What people use... and what we know...

1) Fuel floats when working well, are calibrated when in level flight....

2) A calibrated stick works well, the calibration is valid while on the ground... great for filling the tank with a partial load.

3) there is a known OHer for gauges and floats if spending a few bucks on improvements to the old system makes sense...

4) Cies is a known supplier for improvements over the old analog float system...

5) Adding the mechanical gauges into a tank access panel is pretty cool to. These mechanical floats are calibrated for reading fuel level while on the ground.  Perfect for partial filling of the tank... probably not as precise as a good stick. Five gallon increments...

6) I assume the Cies app would add a level of convenience and accuracy while the tanks are being filled... that would be sweet!  Two calibration curves are physically possible... one for filling, one for flying... accuracy for filling while on the ground. I’m all for that!

7) I’m not sure how combative posts are going to improve on any of this...

8) Some of our vendors are actually adding to our experience. Sure, it can be expensive and takes a boat load of coordination to install...but they answer a boat load of questions about how existing floats work and what their challenges may be...

9) we have a vendor section for commercial activities.  That doesn’t mean we don’t want them to participate properly in discussions...

10) We should celebrate that we have one method to accurately fill the tanks... and another one to tell how much fuel is in the tanks while flying... have at least one of each...

11) having a FF / totalizer is an excellent device to back-up the logic being visualized by the fuel gauges...

12) having 1% accuracy in all aspects of fuel level, from start to finish, is a spectacular step in the right direction...

How about those blue silicone cap seals...?  (Intentional topic deflection)

PP summary only, all stuff I learned here on MS...

Best regards,

-a-

Can I ask you a question? How many keyboards have you gone through on MooneySpace? I'm sure by now some of those keys have to be STICKing. 

[carusoam]

Chris,

Pure glass, and no moving parts...all digital, for the digits.... 

Everything has gone touch screens nowadays...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

10 hours ago, sdflysurf said:

I thank you for your stick measurement and I find it extremely valuable that you posted it for the 26Gal guys/gals out there.

I think you missed that the CIES guy was replying/pointing to "ALL" of us for using a stick.....and that is his sales/marketing "schtick".   Don't let it get you flustered....we have enough distractions as a pilot right!

The guy knows exactly what he did.  Flustered?  I think not.  I have a sound, safe method to know what number to put into my totalizer.  I can then monitor consumption with my totalizer during flight.  I don’t value his product.  I do value my free stick and totalizer on top of my functioning fuel gauges in my plane.  I value his product just about a much as electric cars.  Hey, things change.  Better always?  NOPE.

[MyNameIsNobody]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

What people use... and what we know...

1) Fuel floats when working well, are calibrated when in level flight....

2) A calibrated stick works well, the calibration is valid while on the ground... great for filling the tank with a partial load.

3) there is a known OHer for gauges and floats if spending a few bucks on improvements to the old system makes sense...

4) Cies is a known supplier for improvements over the old analog float system...

5) Adding the mechanical gauges into a tank access panel is pretty cool to. These mechanical floats are calibrated for reading fuel level while on the ground.  Perfect for partial filling of the tank... probably not as precise as a good stick. Five gallon increments...

6) I assume the Cies app would add a level of convenience and accuracy while the tanks are being filled... that would be sweet!  Two calibration curves are physically possible... one for filling, one for flying... accuracy for filling while on the ground. I’m all for that!

7) I’m not sure how combative posts are going to improve on any of this...

8) Some of our vendors are actually adding to our experience. Sure, it can be expensive and takes a boat load of coordination to install...but they answer a boat load of questions about how existing floats work and what their challenges may be...

9) we have a vendor section for commercial activities.  That doesn’t mean we don’t want them to participate properly in discussions...

10) We should celebrate that we have one method to accurately fill the tanks... and another one to tell how much fuel is in the tanks while flying... have at least one of each...

11) having a FF / totalizer is an excellent device to back-up the logic being visualized by the fuel gauges...

12) having 1% accuracy in all aspects of fuel level, from start to finish, is a spectacular step in the right direction...

How about those blue silicone cap seals...?  (Intentional topic deflection)

PP summary only, all stuff I learned here on MS...

Best regards,

-a-

First rule of business.  The customer is always right...

[0TreeLemur]

15 hours ago, Shiny moose said:

Bob,

did you state your using the SAME FL202 with legacy float as with the Cies floats, if that’s the case I would be installing one, then when my floats act up I would replace the floats.

Just curious, where can one obtain legacy analog floats for the 1967 C model with 26 gal tanks?  Anyone know?

[Bob - S50]

15 hours ago, Shiny moose said:

Bob,

did you state your using the SAME FL202 with legacy float as with the Cies floats, if that’s the case I would be installing one, then when my floats act up I would replace the floats.

Yes.  Same gauge.

What we found was over time, we would get larger and larger fluctuations in the fuel level reading.  It might read 13.2 gallons one minute and a minute later it would say 22.4 gallons.  It would usually read higher than actual fuel.  If I walked the rudder a bit and waited about a minute, it would usually (but not always) return to what appeared to be about right.  At that point the Cies floats became available and we jumped at the chance.  My fuel gauge and totalizer now track each other within about .5 gallons for an entire 4 hour flight.  If they don't, I believe whichever says I have less gas.

However, something to keep in mind.  Cies can use either resistance (legacy) or frequency.  Cies says the frequency system is more reliable and I believe them.  After our annual last year, our right fuel gauge started acting up even with the Cies floats.  As suggested by Cies, it turned out to be a loose ground connection.  Since the resistance based system is based on very little change in voltage, any loose connection can impact your readings.  However, we have had no more problems since we tightened down that loose ground.

[Bob - S50]

12 hours ago, sdflysurf said:

2) I don't think the Fuelstik option will work for me because it only has the 27Gal per tank printable scale.

The printed scale can be removed.  Just take out the little black cap on top of the floating part, pull out their scale, print the one I posted, cut it down to the same size as the scale that came with the float, slide it into the tube and put the cap back on.  Just make sure the "11" is at the very top of the floating tube.

When we use it to measure fuel, we put it along the inboard edge of the fuel opening.

[MARZ]

Whatever one you go with - this HAS GOT TO TOP IT OFF.

 

https://www.stlfinder.com/model/mooney-fuel-dipstick-topper-DsjK83TP/8072068

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Mike Ropers

[Hephaestus]

Clearly I need to refine my design!

 

Lol

[Rwsavory]

2 hours ago, Fred_2O said:

Just curious, where can one obtain legacy analog floats for the 1967 C model with 26 gal tanks?  Anyone know?

Air Parts of Lock Haven:  http://www.airpartsoflockhaven.com/fuel-components

[Browncbr1]

14 hours ago, sdflysurf said:

YES!  Thank you!!!!!  I have an M20F which has 32Gal tanks on each side.  This is EXACTLY What I was looking for in this thread.  A measuring tape right next to a Gallon representation of what is actually in the tank and explanation of where to rest the wooden stick to measure. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

 

Now since it is "my" thread I'll make a couple of soap-box comments:

1) Thank you all for posting, I love that I can come here with mooney specific questions and get a ton of advice.

2) I don't think the Fuelstik option will work for me because it only has the 27Gal per tank printable scale.

3) CIES is doing a great thing and makes a lot of sense!  I mean, when I tell non-pilot people that I use a stick to measure a wet tank of fuel on my plane they think I am a caveman.  When was the last time you saw anyone using a stick to measure a tank in their car at the gas station?  exactly.  Now do I want to pay the price of a used car to get that rocket-science technology?  Its on the short list...but I'm hoping the cost will come down some how.  (I know I know - low volume production in the aviation industry combined with FAA and insurance hurdles in a sue-happy society doesn't seem to allow for low-cost aviation products so we'll just hope for some change later down the line).

4) Why do people feel the need to be rude in this forum toward anyone?  I mean, if CIES wants to put a plug in for a product that works for the aviation industry/mooney pilots whats wrong with that?  If you don't like the post then don't get butt-hurt, just move on, don't whine, keep it to yourself and keep the conversation clean.  We can all agree to disagree politely if need be.

5) For now, I will be measuring with this stick from Browncbr1, then adding fuel to accomodate my flight plus 1.5hrs - setting a personal minimum, if I need more fuel then I schedule a stop in my trip, that works since I have long legs and need to stretch anyway!  In the future, I am hoping CIES or someone will be creating an accurate fuel sending system to replace my current system (which I don't trust) at a more manageable price than what is currently advertised.  I am new to this industry but I am a control systems engineer so maybe I'll come up with one even.

 

 

DISCLAIMER:   The fuel measuring stick I shared on this forum is only intended for situational awareness on the ground and shouldn't be used as conclusive evidence for how much fuel is in each tank of a 1967 M20F in its OEM configuration.  In other words, do not trust or rely on the fuel measurement stick what-so-ever!   The markings on it carry no meaning and the stick should only be used for stirring paint.   

Edited October 1, 2018 by Browncbr1

[Hephaestus]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

 

 

DISCLAIMER:   The fuel measuring stick I shared on this forum is only intended for situational awareness on the ground and shouldn't be used as conclusive evidence for how much fuel is in each tank of a 1967 M20F in its OEM configuration.  In other words, do not trust or rely on the fuel measurement stick what-so-ever!   The markings on it carry no meaning and the stick should only be used for stirring paint.   

As above...

32g version from @Browncbr1's picture - added vintage Mooney logo and got a bit fancier. 300x25mm (11x1" +/-)

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3130906

Previously promised 26g that I forgot to hit publish on...

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3124205

[fuellevel]

16 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Seriously people are utterly amazing.   The guy makes shit out of me and I am a dick for coming back at him?  There is a place to market on this website.  That is EXACTLY what he was doing. 

I simply post a picture of an app illustrating  a different method with a comment of -  "You still use a stick"    

There was no sales pitch or offer of any product just my logo, which is over on the left as well   

Can't we just get along.   

[Marauder]

As above...
32g version from [mention=12959]Browncbr1[/mention]'s picture - added vintage Mooney logo and got a bit fancier. 300x25mm (11x1" +/-)
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3130906
Previously promised 26g that I forgot to hit publish on...
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3124205

This thread is getting boring and too mushy. Let’s start moving to an oldie but goodie.

“Do you have a PMA to produce this part?”

[MyNameIsNobody]

18 minutes ago, fuellevel said:

I simply post a picture of an app illustrating  a different method with a comment of -  "You still use a stick"    

There was no sales pitch or offer of any product just my logo, which is over on the left as well   

Can't we just get along.   

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

Sorry.  Not sorry.

[gsxrpilot]

@fuellevel... Mooney M20K 252, CiES fuel senders, JPI EDM-900 gauges, iPhone 8+, flying weekly. Ready to test your app... just saying 

[Hephaestus]

22 minutes ago, Marauder said:

23 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

“Do you have a PMA to produce this part?"

 

 

 

 

 

Did Mooney have a factory paint stirrer?