Landing a Mooney - Safety Culture

[Mooneymite]

16 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I started the thread because there has been a disturbing trend in 2018 of Mooneys crashing and killing the pilots.   Somewhere someone said 9 deaths.   That is one per month.   That is abysmal safety culture.   At least two I can remember are stall spins in the landing phase.

We are trying to balance Shadrach's running off the end of the runway with too much speed to getting slow and stall spinning.

What is the best way to change the habits/training so we can change the trend?

All well and good.  The Mooneyspace community should be concerned!

The way to fly safely is to fly by the book, on the numbers, stabilized approaches, operating well within the envelope, touch down on speed in the first third of the runway.  That's it.

What one does personally outside of these parameters is strictly one's own  business, but it should not be preached as an acceptable variation.  We have pilots of all experience levels reading this stuff.

Let us all foster best practices and a safety culture.  My insurance bill is already too high.

[Yetti]

2 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

operating well within the envelope,

What does that mean to you?  Because in two of the ones I am thinking of it was not about a runway and a speed indication that got them in the landing phase of flight.

Here is my one from the POH.   No turns under 90mph in the landing phase without flaps deployed.

[Mooneymite]

4 minutes ago, Yetti said:

What does that mean to you?

"No turns under 90mph in the landing phase without flaps deployed.."

If that appeared in a POH for my aircraft, I would interpret that exactly as written.  89 mph would be outside of the envelope.

[steingar]

I couldn't see didlipoo on my last night landing (my first in two years, and my first to my new to me home airport).  Managed to land the crate.  Wasn't pretty, sure as hell wasn't sooth, and boy howdy did I land long.  But the airplane still worked fine the next day, so I'll call it a success.

[MyNameIsNobody]

43 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I started the thread because there has been a disturbing trend in 2018 of Mooneys crashing and killing the pilots.   Somewhere someone said 9 deaths.   That is one per month.   That is abysmal safety culture.   At least two I can remember are stall spins in the landing phase.

We are trying to balance Shadrach's running off the end of the runway with too much speed to getting slow and stall spinning.

What is the best way to change the habits/training so we can change the trend?

There were many mitigating factors that the landing “technique” didn’t cover.  My personal take for me (my introspective evaluation on my exposures and how I attempt to mitigate)

I maintain my airplane.  If something is wrong or I suspect something is wrong mechanically I get it fixed/looked at.  I preflight checking oil/visual inspection of fuel (looking in tanks) and I test fuel for water.  I do a mag test if a mag doesn’t pass (over 100rpm drop for me) I don’t go until it’s less.

I am at a towered long (over 5000’ runways) with options to reduce wind impact.  I see this as a positive NOT an opportunity to get lazy.  I have in plane ADSB weather on three devices.  I check the weather and as a VFR pilot if MVFR I have OUTS if weather deteriorates.

I will NOT land on a runway less than 3000’ unless I practice alone and am “current” for this task.  I do not overload my airplane.  I always take off with full fuel.  I have a fuel computer.  I have a pre-stall audible alarm in my headset that also alerts for gear.  I use a checklist on my knee.  I read the checklist out loud or my wife/son does and I respond “Check” for phases of flight.

I go two three four weeks without flying.  I understand that I am NOT 100% because of this.  I don’t fly for “fun”/“sightseeing”.  I fly to get from point A to B faster.  If there is a question on weather: I/we don’t go.

I take off and land by the numbers as a reference.  I fly pattern at 100 and I don’t overbank down low.  I fly final at 80MPH and I land full flaps.  I am power off with runway made and after round out I hold it off.

I am so conservative it makes my wife angry on weather.  She knows that what I say goes.  I welcome her input, but I decide.  Read the articles on why people fly and die.  There are usually many “chain” reasons for the result.  New information on the Palo Alto Angel Flight continue to come in.

Since my gear up (while under instruction) I have added to airplane is trying to kill me the two following contributors: My CFI/Mechanic/Wife are trying to kill me.  I love ‘em all, but I trust ‘em about as far as I can throw ‘em.  ME?  I trust me even less.  Verify.  Trust, but verify.  All that and weird weather, the plane breaking, another knucklehead pilot, a deer, a bird, a health issue etc. etc. might try and kill you.  Flying is dangerous JUST like riding a motorcycle.  I quit riding a motorized bike.  Too many people trying to kill me...Flying?  Not yet.

[Yetti]

^^^^^  I like it ^^^^^

[MyNameIsNobody]

7 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

So do I. But all of that is just good ADM and really doesn't have much of anything special to do with landing a Mooney. 

True and I state as much early on.  

 

[MBDiagMan]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Js slip entirely conventionally and no differently than Cs; perhaps even better than older Cs equipped with short rudders.  With experience, though, slips should really never be needed. 

OK. I'll say it. Stuff can always happen, but generally speaking Mooneys are easy airplanes to land.  This whole conversation is a bit confounding to me. 

I do agree that they are easy to land.  My problem is that I am not a very good, very talented or experienced pilot.  There were enough things different in the feel of my F as compared to my limber controls C coupled with my desire to get comfortable with full flap landings that made the transition more challenging than I thought it was going to be.

When I went from a Cessna 140 to the C I kind of kicked the can down the road on learning the full flap landings and just started flying the C like it was a taildragger, slipping when needed and gliding it in with no flaps.  This seemed like the time to learn a full flap, stabilized approach since I am trying to get into the instrument training.  In the last three days I have turned the corner and feel comfortable with full flap, stabilized approaches and setting it on the runway with full flaps.  It was simply a matter of going through the learning process and I am glad I did.

I also agree that slips should not be needed if you are properly planning ahead.

[MBDiagMan]

11 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

You can’t spin unless you stall.  Don’t stall.  If I’m too fast or too high after a sloppy approach, I slip my F.  No different than any other normal category certified aircraft.  How else can you land on one wheel in a blistering crosswind? .. slipping

When I say slip, I don’t mean the mold slipping I do to align with the runway.  I mean hard forward slips to lose lots of altitude.

[skydvrboy]

It seems there are two very distinct views represented here on what makes for a safe pilot.  One school of thought seems to be simply avoid any situation that adds additional risk, fly every approach the same, and rely on their superior ADM skills.  On the other hand are those that think constantly pushing themselves to improve their skills is the better approach.

Frankly, the first type of pilots scare the hell out of me and I think they are a statistic waiting to happen.  Can you handle the unexpected when it happens?  If you're flying over a forest and your engine quits, can you land on that 3000' strip with tall pines on either end or is "don't fly over forests" part of your ADM process?  If your flaps quit working in flight, what speed do you fly final, how long of a runway do you need?

I'm in the second camp and like to challenge myself.  If I practice making the 1000' turnoff and make it consistently, I know that 1500' crosswind runway is available when the winds favor it.  When my flaps failed in flight, I knew 90 mph approach, 85 short final, and that 2900' runway I was flying into was sufficient for both landing and takeoff.  I know those in the first camp would think I was crazy for knowingly taking off with INOP flaps, but having practiced flying without them, it was just another routine flight.  After all, flaps aren't required equipment and aren't needed to ensure a safe flight.

It's not just stick and rudder that I practice either.  I regularly leave the GPS and iPad in the flight bag.  Calculate my crosswind correction and time to various waypoints and practice dead reckoning.  I try not to ever let my night currency lapse (though it's tough in the summer) and intentionally land with the landing light off on occasion.  I think all of this makes me a better pilot for when something unexpected happens, but maybe I'm just trying to kill myself by taking unnecessary risks. 

[Mooneymite]

34 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

It seems there are two very distinct views represented here on what makes for a safe pilot.  One school of thought seems to be simply avoid any situation that adds additional risk, fly every approach the same, and rely on their superior ADM skills.  On the other hand are those that think constantly pushing themselves to improve their skills is the better approach.

I think you over simplify this as a two camp dichotomy.  It isn't.

There is a proper way to train for emergencies/unusual situations.  The military pushes the envelope on its aircraft, but it stays within the envelope through an aggressive training program.  If you've ever flown in the military, you know that the majority of flights are, in some way, shape, or form a "training exercise".

Having your buddy hold your beer while you "try" this, or that maneuver to push the envelope is not "training".  It contributes to our dismal safety record.

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, Yetti said:

I started the thread because there has been a disturbing trend in 2018 of Mooneys crashing and killing the pilots.   Somewhere someone said 9 deaths.   That is one per month.   That is abysmal safety culture.   At least two I can remember are stall spins in the landing phase.

We are trying to balance Shadrach's running off the end of the runway with too much speed to getting slow and stall spinning.

What is the best way to change the habits/training so we can change the trend?

My 28 years of Mooney landings and from my observations of watching and recording Mooney landings, the common factors that I have observed is airspeed control, correct configurations and poor technique. The video I posted was on a day where there was a lot of crosswind and it was gusty. In addition, our airport has unique features that make it difficult. The runway sits in a valley on top of a hill. There is a huge drop off to the south and another valley to the north. In addition, we have "Ralph". The affectionately named area just before the approach end of runway 24. You can see it on the video when I said "look at that wing wobble" That's Ralph. We also have 3 windsocks on the field because of the variability of the winds due to the valleys, tree lines and topography around the runway.

What happened on that landing was a combination of factors. He was coming in too fast, hence the float, he had full flaps out on a gusty day and he bounced it by letting it down before it was ready to stop flying. And then at the end, you can hear the brakes locking up as he was trying to slow down. 

And to be honest, I have had similar landings. Mooneys are easy to land if you stay aware and execute the correct technique. They can be pretty non-forgiving when you don't.

[MyNameIsNobody]

51 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

It seems there are two very distinct views represented here on what makes for a safe pilot.  One school of thought seems to be simply avoid any situation that adds additional risk, fly every approach the same, and rely on their superior ADM skills.  On the other hand are those that think constantly pushing themselves to improve their skills is the better approach.

Frankly, the first type of pilots scare the hell out of me and I think they are a statistic waiting to happen.  Can you handle the unexpected when it happens?  If you're flying over a forest and your engine quits, can you land on that 3000' strip with tall pines on either end or is "don't fly over forests" part of your ADM process?  If your flaps quit working in flight, what speed do you fly final, how long of a runway do you need?

I'm in the second camp and like to challenge myself.  If I practice making the 1000' turnoff and make it consistently, I know that 1500' crosswind runway is available when the winds favor it.  When my flaps failed in flight, I knew 90 mph approach, 85 short final, and that 2900' runway I was flying into was sufficient for both landing and takeoff.  I know those in the first camp would think I was crazy for knowingly taking off with INOP flaps, but having practiced flying without them, it was just another routine flight.  After all, flaps aren't required equipment and aren't needed to ensure a safe flight.

It's not just stick and rudder that I practice either.  I regularly leave the GPS and iPad in the flight bag.  Calculate my crosswind correction and time to various waypoints and practice dead reckoning.  I try not to ever let my night currency lapse (though it's tough in the summer) and intentionally land with the landing light off on occasion.  I think all of this makes me a better pilot for when something unexpected happens, but maybe I'm just trying to kill myself by taking unnecessary risks. 

The big difference is that you seem to care about how I fly my plane and mitigate risk.  I could care less how you fly your plane.  I used to take off and land no flaps until Mooneyspace convinced me that was NOT a good idea.  I do all kinds of wiz bang new stuff during my time with instructors.  One even pulled power on downwind as we were doing touch and go’s.  I had a gear up.  Good times...

[MyNameIsNobody]

I used to ride my motorcycle at night with tire under pressure with a big fat dude on the back just in case I ever really had this happen.  I felt it made me a safer rider.  I would occasionally ride without a helmet just in case I left it at home.  Sometimes I would wear sunglasses at night in the rain just in case I forgot to take them off so I would be ready if it really happened.  I would close my eyes for 30 seconds just to make sure if I lost my eyesight I would be ready.  I thought I was a better rider for when something unexpected happened.  Maybe I was just trying to kill myself and the fat dude?

[Cyril Gibb]

2 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

When I say slip, I don’t mean the mold slipping I do to align with the runway.  I mean hard forward slips to lose lots of altitude.

Not trying to be argumentative, but just last week we had a 20-g25kt crosswind component in Gore Bay.  That was full rudder deflection and it was still a tad of a crabbed landing.  I hope it never happens but in an emergency (fire?) I’m gear down, flaps down, nose down and slipping.  The rudder travel is part of the certification process.  Use it with confidence, but don’t stall.

This will be heresy to many here, but I believe there is too much focus on the numbers.  The certification standards require very benign flight characteristics with a wide performance envelope.  Every pilot should develop seat-of-the-pants feeling for the aircraft they fly because there are too many variables to consider.  Get some altitude and do a few stalls.  Try an emergency descent.  Everyone should be able to comfortably fly and land visually with NO flight or engine instruments.. with or without flaps... and given a long enough runway, uphill/downhill/headwind/tailwind/crosswind. 

[skydvrboy]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Since I am the one who brought ADM into this discussion, I feel like that was directed at me and I have been insulted and I have no idea why.  If you knew me and of my life-long obsession with flying I doubt you would have drawn the conclusions that you apparently did from my posts, which tend to be brief because I don't like to type on my phone. The dangers of an Internet forum based relationship, I suppose. I'm sorry I gave you the impression that I apparently did.  I have been constantly and unsuccessfully striving for perfection in my Mooney airmanship for over 30 years now.  It is the essence of what I love about flying, in fact.

Fly safe,

Jim

This comment was NOT directed at you, or anyone else in particular.  I'm sorry that I offended you, I didn't have any specific post in mind when I wrote that.  Just a general observation that in order to improve our skills, we have to introduce a measured amount of risk to test limits, too much risk and we become a statistic ourselves.

Also, with respect to ADM, it is absolutely an invaluable tool to use, both before and during the flight.  It can get you out of, or prevent you from getting into, many bad situations.  However, it's not a silver bullet that can make up for poor stick and rudder skills.  I know I personally struggle with the macho attitude, thinking I can handle this, so I constantly have to tell myself, don't take unnecessary chances.  I was recently invited to a fly-in at an airport with a 1000' runway.  All of my old training buddies were going with their cubs, pacers, and home builts.  At first I thought, I can do this, I can stop and take off in 900' just about every time.  Then my ADM kicked in and said,  hey stupid, what about the "just about every time" did you not get.  Not worth the risk.  Landing on a 1000' runway is a lot different than only using 1000' of a 4000' runway from a risk standpoint.

Edited September 7, 2018 by skydvrboy

[steingar]

52 minutes ago, Marauder said:

And to be honest, I have had similar landings. Mooneys are easy to land if you stay aware and execute the correct technique. They can be pretty non-forgiving when you don't.

So exactly which airplanes would you say it's difficult to land?

[Mooneymite]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

So exactly which airplanes would you say it's difficult to land?

I heard that landing an A-5 on the carrier was a total bit.h!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYR8QByIOKY

 

[marcusku]

I've only been flying a Mooney for about 8 months and it's certainly more difficult for me to land than previous (C-152, C-72, PA-28) and though I have about 120 hours on the Mooney I still wouldn't call myself "good at landing".  Too me it's less forgiving than other planes I've flown.  I believe my main mistakes are flaring too high and too fast.  Lately I've been doing better to get closer to 70 knots over the fence and that seems to be helping.

One thing I have gotten better at are go-arounds!  Never had to do one until the Mooney though once or twice I should have.

[Marauder]

14 minutes ago, steingar said:

So exactly which airplanes would you say it's difficult to land?

An FA-18 with a busted tailhook, a B-26 with a shot up vertical stab and one with the engine not running and you're over the Himalayas. 

There are some though that are pretty forgiving, like the Beech Bonanza.

[skydvrboy]

42 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

I used to ride my motorcycle at night with tire under pressure with a big fat dude on the back just in case I ever really had this happen.  I felt it made me a safer rider.  I would occasionally ride without a helmet just in case I left it at home.  Sometimes I would wear sunglasses at night in the rain just in case I forgot to take them off so I would be ready if it really happened.  I would close my eyes for 30 seconds just to make sure if I lost my eyesight I would be ready.  I thought I was a better rider for when something unexpected happened.  Maybe I was just trying to kill myself and the fat dude?

I get your point, but I learned long ago that anything mechanical can, and will, fail, so you need to be prepared.  Whether that is having a redundant system in the plane or training for the failure, a contingency plan is mandatory.  I think there is a very good reason instructors cover instruments and "fail" parts of the plane during training.  However, not all training needs to take place with an instructor sitting beside you.  I'm pretty sure Micheal Jordan practiced jump shots occasionally without a coach present.   That said, if I'm doing something new or something I haven't practiced in a long time, I'm calling my instructor to see if he wants to go for a ride.

[Mooneymite]

One of my favorite activities was watching a 727 land right after the pilot said, "Hot Damn.  I think I figured how to land this thing."  His very next landing was usually, "firmer than usual".  

[carusoam]

Some thoughts....

• this is a really important conversation.
• expect everyone to participate.
• know that everyone participates differently. Some just read. Some will share their thoughts and experiences.
• English may be a second language for some.
• others can’t type very well.
• some will just write in a bullet pointed format.
• some will forget what the thread is about as it gets past page 5....
• Later tonight... Oktoberfest may have some additional effects...
• expect to feel insulted, even when your not.
• It really helps to know all the players.  It gets easier with time.

We have lost some good people over the last few years.  Where speed control, decision making speed,  proper actions would have made a difference....

We have lost a wooden Mooney, but not its pilot.... loss of lift on final approach...

We have lost a Mooney pilot in a rental M20J....  on a second attempt to land...  a late go-around attempt turned into a stall off the end of the runway...

...and our most recent loss that we don’t know nearly enough about, yet...

Some with very little experience...

Some with a lot of experience...

Nobody is immune...

 

The best part....   We have had some great success stories as well...

Loss of power on departure.  

Loss of power at altitude.

A stall on climb out at TPA.

All survived to explain what happened.  Often (but not all) with the plane in pretty good condition.

 

Please keep the conversation coming along.  It IS going to save somebody’s bacon...

Three bear strategy:  Speed and numbers are everything...

• having too much energy... bad.
• too little energy,... bad. 
• having the right amount of energy... good.

Mike Elliot’s team has been writing too many letters lately...  let’s lighten their load...   

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

28 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

I get your point, but I learned long ago that anything mechanical can, and will, fail, so you need to be prepared.  Whether that is having a redundant system in the plane or training for the failure, a contingency plan is mandatory.  I think there is a very good reason instructors cover instruments and "fail" parts of the plane during training.  However, not all training needs to take place with an instructor sitting beside you.  I'm pretty sure Micheal Jordan practiced jump shots occasionally without a coach present.   That said, if I'm doing something new or something I haven't practiced in a long time, I'm calling my instructor to see if he wants to go for a ride.

Just poking for fun.  Fly your plane however you want.  

[MyNameIsNobody]

42 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

I get your point, but I learned long ago that anything mechanical can, and will, fail, so you need to be prepared.  Whether that is having a redundant system in the plane or training for the failure, a contingency plan is mandatory.  I think there is a very good reason instructors cover instruments and "fail" parts of the plane during training.  However, not all training needs to take place with an instructor sitting beside you.  I'm pretty sure Micheal Jordan practiced jump shots occasionally without a coach present.   That said, if I'm doing something new or something I haven't practiced in a long time, I'm calling my instructor to see if he wants to go for a ride.

When Jordan or any player shoots a jump shot are they trying new ways to release while practicing or are they trying to ingrain a set manner?  Are they practicing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to increase their odds of making the shot every time through muscle memory?  Why do pro’s in every field make it look so easy?  Because they practice.  If something is NOT working i.e. a putt from four feet THEN they might try a different grip/stance/putter but the goal is to make the putt, right?  In landing an airplane practice in the same plane helps.  What helps me is doing things the way I have done them before.  Temperature, wind (direction and velocity), weight, my physical/mental state are variables BUT I know from practice and experiencing landings over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (I won’t do this 973 times) what a good landing should look and feel like.  I know what to do if it is NOT looking and feeling like it should.  Practice makes well, you know...