Looking at a Mooney this weekend, N201KB. Checklist/Items to look over?

[JamieK]

Going to look at a 1978 MOONEY M20J 201 that has all logs:

Lycoming IO-360A3B6D 1015 Hours Since Major Overhaul in 1996. Gami Injectors.
Total Time 3,965
McCauley 2 Blade Prop. 166 Hours since prop overhaul by Aero Propeller Hemet CA. March 2011
Tanks resealed 1998
Complete Strip and Paint 2009
Gamis. Garmin GTN 750.
GDL -88 ADS-B-Out
GTX 327 Xpndr

Garmin GMA340 Audio Panel with intercom and 3 light marker beacons
Garmin GTN750 Moving Map GPS, Nav/Com
King KX175B Nav/Com
Century III Autopilot w/Alt Hold (coupled)
BFG WX-900 StormScope
JPI EDM 700 Engine Analyzer
Shadin Digital Fuel Flow
Oil Air Separator
Precise Flight Stand by Vacuum
Aileron Gap Seals, Polished Spinner
Lasar Nose wheel overhaul
Whelen LED landing Light
Plane Power Alternator
 

I tried to search for a pre buy checklist but I could not find one. Before going into contract or have a full inspection done what are things that need to be looked at or asked? As for the tank reseal how long between reseals? This one was 20 years ago. 

What about value? There is always what I think it is worth, seller thinks it is worth and then what the market says it is worth. 

[Steve W]

This might be a start: https://lasar.com/prebuy-check-list/

[EricJ]

Sounds like a reasonably nice airplane.

Just check the tanks for leaks after it has been sitting full for a few days.

[JRam]

For valuations, I found this to be very useful:

http://www.themooneyflyer.com/tool.html

 

[JamieK]

15 minutes ago, JRam said:

For valuations, I found this to be very useful:

http://www.themooneyflyer.com/tool.html

 

Thank you. Using that calculator puts the price they are asking just a few thousand over what this says. Like anything there is always room for negotiation. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, JamieK said:

Going to look at a 1978 MOONEY M20J 201 that has all logs:

Lycoming IO-360A3B6D 1015 Hours Since Major Overhaul in 1996. Gami Injectors.
Total Time 3,965
McCauley 2 Blade Prop. 166 Hours since prop overhaul by Aero Propeller Hemet CA. March 2011
Tanks resealed 1998
Complete Strip and Paint 2009
Gamis. Garmin GTN 750.
GDL -88 ADS-B-Out
GTX 327 Xpndr

Garmin GMA340 Audio Panel with intercom and 3 light marker beacons
Garmin GTN750 Moving Map GPS, Nav/Com
King KX175B Nav/Com
Century III Autopilot w/Alt Hold (coupled)
BFG WX-900 StormScope
JPI EDM 700 Engine Analyzer
Shadin Digital Fuel Flow
Oil Air Separator
Precise Flight Stand by Vacuum
Aileron Gap Seals, Polished Spinner
Lasar Nose wheel overhaul
Whelen LED landing Light
Plane Power Alternator
 

I tried to search for a pre buy checklist but I could not find one. Before going into contract or have a full inspection done what are things that need to be looked at or asked? As for the tank reseal how long between reseals? This one was 20 years ago. 

What about value? There is always what I think it is worth, seller thinks it is worth and then what the market says it is worth. 

I posted my PPI list in the downloads section under Safey & Technique 

Clarence

Edited August 10, 2018 by M20Doc

[BaldEagle]

17 hours ago, JamieK said:

Thank you. Using that calculator puts the price they are asking just a few thousand over what this says. Like anything there is always room for negotiation. 

Similar spec to the '78 J I just purchased.  For comparison: appraisal tool put mine at $115k (I forget which one, might have been AOPA's), lender appraised it at $95k, and I paid $85k (what the seller was asking; I didn't negotiate because it was below market and PPI came back good).  It wasn't listed in any of the usual places and had been on the market for a while with the price recently reduced from high 80's.  We put another $10k to one side for purchase (sales tax, PPI, flights, hotel, etc. to take an initial look as it was based other end of the country, and later, ferry / delivery costs) and an additional $10k for maintenance float (the first annual is always a nail-biter).  I only mention this as it took me 3 times going through the airplane purchase process to finally figure out that the problem isn't with buying the thing, it's all the other costs that hurt, so if you can get something below market that really helps (psychologically, at least).

Budget $8k to reseal the tanks; they will start leaking sooner or later if it's been 20 years.  Might be a negotiating point, plus whatever is found in the PPI.

[bdash]

I looked at N201KB a couple of months ago, and ultimately ended up passing on it. It's a nice looking aircraft, and is well equipped. A few things that reviewing the log books revealed:

The aircraft has flown relatively little in the past 6 or so years (~45 hours, of which only ~15 are in the last 4.5 years).

The existing W&B data seems to be incorrect. It lists an empty CG location of ~12 inches aft of the datum. Since the allowable range is 41-50 inches, it'd be virtually impossible for the aircraft to ever be within CG limits. I suspect this will require re-weighing to correct, which may result in the available useful load changing a non-trivial amount.

There doesn't appear to be a log book entry for the installation of the GTN 750 and related equipment. There's a work order and 337, but nothing in the airframe log.

[INA201]

Gotta get a good PPI unless you really know Mooneys.  Everything from tanks leaking, gear discs, gear rigging, engine mounts, compressions, engine itself, corrosion,  hidden damage repair, AD compliance, SB compliance, worn rod ends, etc.  There are a lot of items that a pro can spot very quickly.  That being said, this plane could be a really good buy if the engine doesn't cause any future trouble and everything else checks out. I bought mine three years ago and it had been sitting for a couple of years.  I rolled the dice and so far so good.  Good luck in your search. There aren't a lot of good Js for sale right now.

[JamieK]

On 8/10/2018 at 1:23 PM, bdash said:

I looked at N201KB a couple of months ago, and ultimately ended up passing on it. It's a nice looking aircraft, and is well equipped. A few things that reviewing the log books revealed:

The aircraft has flown relatively little in the past 6 or so years (~45 hours, of which only ~15 are in the last 4.5 years).

The existing W&B data seems to be incorrect. It lists an empty CG location of ~12 inches aft of the datum. Since the allowable range is 41-50 inches, it'd be virtually impossible for the aircraft to ever be within CG limits. I suspect this will require re-weighing to correct, which may result in the available useful load changing a non-trivial amount.

There doesn't appear to be a log book entry for the installation of the GTN 750 and related equipment. There's a work order and 337, but nothing in the airframe log.

Awesome, thank you for that info.

I did notice the low hours recently, that concerned me. 

Total newbie question, how does one get the W&B data?

Great info on the GTN750. Can this be corrected? Does it mean it was never signed off? How does one correct this?

[kris_adams]

30 minutes ago, JamieK said:

I did notice the low hours recently, that concerned me. 

Total newbie question, how does one get the W&B data?

Great info on the GTN750. Can this be corrected? Does it mean it was never signed off? How does one correct this?

Re: the GTN 750, the avionics shop could have printed a "sticker" to put in the air frame log that was lost before it was actually put into the logbook.  Probably no biggie and corrected by contacting whomever put in the radio.

Low hours...this one is scary to me especially depending on how it was stored.  I unfortunately had to pass on a 310 that seemed like a good deal but had virtually no hours since 2014.  Major work on 1 or both engines would have killed the finances of the opportunity for me.

W&B: I've never done this but it takes an A&P.  Probably would cost you an AMU or so (totally a guess).  The concern is a plane generally just gains a little weight here and there over the years...all of the "weight change negligible".  You might have 20-30 pounds less useful load than you hope for.

-Kris

...all just private pilot thoughts...not a mechanic 

 

[carusoam]

WnB data is often found....

In ancient Mooneys...

a piece of loose graph paper kept in it’s airframe Log...  really strange to find such an important document not really well cared for...

 

In Modern Mooneys...

Well documented in it’s POH... in the WnB section...

 

Every piece of equipment that has been added or subtracted is typically accounted for.  Unless Hangar elves have been involved with the install... or removal of equipment...

 

A good PPI should be looking for things like what is in the plane and what is not... and Does it work properly... a few important serial numbers should be confirmed to make sure the logs represent which equipment is being tracked in the logs...

As a potential owner, you are responsible for the PPI and what gets covered... there is no standard to follow... the resources listed here in this thread are very good...

One needs to decide how much to spend for something that is known to be imperfect... a PPI is similar to insurance... it costs an uncomfortable amount and you hope nothing big comes up...

WnB/UL is important to have right...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[jaylw314]

57 minutes ago, JamieK said:

Awesome, thank you for that info.

I did notice the low hours recently, that concerned me. 

Total newbie question, how does one get the W&B data?

Great info on the GTN750. Can this be corrected? Does it mean it was never signed off? How does one correct this?

The W&B data (both the factory and most recent update) is in the POH, I don't think there's any requirement that any of it is recorded elsewhere (although it's certainly a good paper trail to have).

Rather than try to "correct" the W&B, it might be cheaper and easier simply to re-weigh the aircraft and have an A&P draw up a new W&B.

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

The W&B data (both the factory and most recent update) is in the POH, I don't think there's any requirement that any of it is recorded elsewhere (although it's certainly a good paper trail to have).

Rather than try to "correct" the W&B, it might be cheaper and easier simply to re-weigh the aircraft and have an A&P draw up a new W&B.

it costs nothing but time to go through it yourself and look for arithmetic mistakes . . . The seller should have his A&P make the correction if you find an obvious one.

[jaylw314]

22 minutes ago, Hank said:

it costs nothing but time to go through it yourself and look for arithmetic mistakes . . . The seller should have his A&P make the correction if you find an obvious one.

True, if the mistake is easy to correct and the A&P is willing to write up a new one based on that.  In this case, though, it sounds like it's obvious a mistake was made, but not obvious what KIND of mistake (or mistakes) were made.

[ArtVandelay]

True, if the mistake is easy to correct and the A&P is willing to write up a new one based on that.  In this case, though, it sounds like it's obvious a mistake was made, but not obvious what KIND of mistake (or mistakes) were made.

In my experience, APs don’t want to do math, they’ll just want weigh it.

[Piloto]

Check for corrosion on the spar cap splice and wheel wells.

José

[Guest]

On 8/13/2018 at 11:35 AM, JamieK said:

Awesome, thank you for that info.

I did notice the low hours recently, that concerned me. 

Total newbie question, how does one get the W&B data?

Great info on the GTN750. Can this be corrected? Does it mean it was never signed off? How does one correct this?

If you can run Excel you can run all of the amended W&B reports, start with the factory weight or last reweigh and work from there to present.

Clarence

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

If you can run Excel you can run all of the amended W&B reports, start with the factory weight or last reweigh and work from there to present.

And then check to ensure that all of the equipment actually installed and removed from the airplane has actually been accounted for between logbook entries, W&B reports, and the original equipment list.  

Paperwork gets lost or forgotten especially when there's a rush to get an airplane out the door.  Logbook entries often get printed on sticky paper and handed to the owner who may or may not remember to actually stick them into their logbooks.  W&B reports also regularly get handed to the owner who may or may not file them appropriately. 

[ArtVandelay]

If you can run Excel you can run all of the amended W&B reports, start with the factory weight or last reweigh and work from there to present.
Clarence

I did exactly this, I have 118 entries, about 15 erroneous or missing entries. In the end, it was a difference of about 2 pounds.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Andy95W said:

And then check to ensure that all of the equipment actually installed and removed from the airplane has actually been accounted for between logbook entries, W&B reports, and the original equipment list.  

Paperwork gets lost or forgotten especially when there's a rush to get an airplane out the door.  Logbook entries often get printed on sticky paper and handed to the owner who may or may not remember to actually stick them into their logbooks.  W&B reports also regularly get handed to the owner who may or may not file them appropriately. 

Don’t you guys have to submit your W&B reports and amendments to the FAA?

Clarence

[Andy95W]

4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Don’t you guys have to submit your W&B reports and amendments to the FAA?

Clarence

No.  

In days gone by (30+ years ago), it was not uncommon for mechanics to include new weight and balance information on 337s submitted to the FAA.  That practice ended a long time ago and was never a requirement.  

Back then it seems like mechanics were filing 337s for just about anything they did to an airplane more complex than an annual inspection.  Now most FSDOs take a more hands-off attitude unless the repair or alteration truly meets the definition of "Major".  My FSDO  suggests submitting a 337, even for a minor alteration, simply to make a permanent record of the work and any ICAs.  I could see including new weight and balance info in that case.

[Hank]

4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Don’t you guys have to submit your W&B reports and amendments to the FAA?

Clarence

We are required to keep a copy of the results in the plane, i.e., empty weight and CG. There's even a form, about 3" x 5", with little tiny spaces for the numbers . . . Details are in the logs, which we really aren't even required to keep more than a couple of years (but we all do anyway, from factory to scrapyard).

Edited August 21, 2018 by Hank

[BushPilot]

Was there a final verdict after you looked at this plane? The spec sheet intrigued me, but this thread steered me away.