lawsuit in Philly

[Jerry Pressley]

Anyone know the results of the lawsuit against Lycoming/Continental recently in Pa?

[Mooneymite]

[FloridaMan]

It’s a shame that thread was deleted where the lawyer wanted to rent a Mooney to put on the courthouse lawn. Pilot stalls the airplane into a perfectly good field and there’s water in the fuel tanks and lines, and they blame the dual magneto. 

[takair]

Can an entire thread be deleted?

[DXB]

It's a shame the original thread was deleted. Just to recap here is the case:  https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2015/07/engine-makers-blamed-for-fatal-plane.html&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwj0wpqLn8rbAhWFpFkKHdNIBXMQFggIMAE&client=internal-uds-cse&cx=partner-pub-6109004171498468:1635926485&usg=AOvVaw1T_0tnCvgRkdsADty98-WU

The plaintiffs are the adult children of the deceased Mooney pilot.  The suit claims Avco/Lycoming is liable for the crash based on the defective design of the J model's dual mag.  The NTSB report concluded fuel contamination with water made the engine falter during takeoff, and the issue was compounded by the pilot continuing takeoff under the circumstance. There was no evidence of mag failure found.  As revealed by discussion in the original thread, the finding of water in the fuel in the NTSB report is admissible in court but the report's overall conclusions are not.  The attorney trying the case is Cynthia Devers of the Wolk Law Firm in Philadelphia https://airlaw.com/about-2/our-legal-team-2-2/cynthia-m-devers/.   Arthur Wolk is well known for litigation success in these very tenuous aviation cases, as well as for theatrically bringing aircraft down to the courthouse in Philadelphia.  Philadelphia is an ideal environment to try these cases, given the lack of damage caps in Pennsylvania combined with the extremely plaintiff-friendly juror pool in Philly. Here they were trying to find a J model to display at the Philly courthouse for trial and may have found someone willing to lend their plane for 5k to be transported on a trailer from KPNE for this purpose.  

The case still appears active on the civil docket per public records of the Philadelphia Court of Common Pleas and can be accessed here:

https://fjdefile.phila.gov/efsfjd/zk_fjd_public_qry_03.zp_dktrpt_frames

Enter case ID#150702501

As a non-lawyer I'm unsure of how to interpret all of the listed proceedings  perhaps someone else can shed light. There was a trial date set in May, but it appears to have been delayed. As best I can tell, someone named in the suit appears to have settled, but the main defendant (AVCO/Lycoming) has not. I'm not sure what the new trial date is, or if they are still bringing a J model into the city.  I live in the city and know that part of town (as well as KPNE) well. I will certainly post a pic if I come across a Mooney on the streets of Philly.   

 

 

[thinwing]

The thing is ,we all end up paying for these “settled” lawsuits...it’s what is making light aircraft aviation so expensive ,that the middle class is know effectively priced out..so different from my Father’s Day...sad...ps while on vacation ,I was reading a novel where they have a “hang the lawyers day” the motto was “frag em,tag em”Of course ,it was simply fiction and no way represents my beliefs.

[tspear]

It would be nice if we could get some lawyers to help us sue law firms and individuals who bring such frivolous suits into bankruptcy.

 

Tim

[Guest]

Two things which would help in these situations. Make the plaintive pay the legal bill of the defendant when they lose and get smarter juries.

Clarence

[Bravoman]

It never ceases to amaze me how the most raisin hearted anti civil justice folks do an about face when it is their wife, husband or child that is catastrophically injured or killed.  I have seen it time and time again in 31 years representing both defendants and plaintiffs in personal injury and wrongful death cases. Rest assured there is usually more to the story than you think. Lawyers are not in business to go broke, and that is what happens if a so-called frivolous lawsuit is pursued , especially one too many times.   There are both statutory and other barriers to a case even getting to a jury if the evidence does not warrant the case going to a jury, such as the  Daubert standard which deals with scientific and other technical evidence. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Bravoman

[DXB]

2 hours ago, Bravoman said:

It never ceases to amaze me how the most raisin hearted anti civil justice folks do an about face when it is their wife, husband or child that is catastrophically injured or killed.  I have seen it time and time again in 31 years representing both defendants and plaintiffs in personal injury and wrongful death cases. Rest assured there is usually more to the story than you think. Lawyers are not in business to go broke, and that is what happens if a so-called frivolous lawsuit is pursued , especially one too many times.   There are both statutory and other barriers to a case even getting to a jury if the evidence does not warrant the case going to a jury, such as the  Daubert standard which deals with scientific and other technical evidence. 

As an experienced civil litigator as well as a pilot, do you have any comment on the merit of this particular case?  I suspect you'd agree the barriers to this type of litigation going forward and succeeding in Philly are far lower  than much of the rest of the country.  

[chrisk]

McDonalds and Hot Coffee.  The barrier to frivolous law suites must not be that  high.  The issues I have with the civil justice system is the quality of the jury.  Just imagine your mom (or spouses mom) on the jury of a high tech patent case or a case like the one mentioned here.  You might have justice if the jury for an aircraft accident was filled with pilots and aircraft mechanics.

[Guest tommy123]

1 hour ago, chrisk said:

McDonalds and Hot Coffee.  The barrier to frivolous law suites must not be that  high.  The issues I have with the civil justice system is the quality of the jury.  Just imagine your mom (or spouses mom) on the jury of a high tech patent case or a case like the one mentioned here.  You might have justice if the jury for an aircraft accident was filled with pilots and aircraft mechanics.

People always bring up the coffee lawsuit as frivolous when in reality a elderly woman sustained serious burns from overheated coffee n this case. She suffered permanent injuries.

[tspear]

People always bring up the coffee lawsuit as frivolous when in reality a elderly woman sustained serious burns from overheated coffee n this case. She suffered permanent injuries.

My grandmother who is a hundred said anyone who makes it to 80 better know coffee is hot.
No it was not overheated. Straight from the percolator coffee is just under boiling.

The fundamental problem is we now have a belief that someone else is to blame, and our civil system has enshrined the concept that someone else is responsible for our mistakes and for managing/elimination of our risks.

Cap lawyer fees on these cases to a multiple of minimum wage, make all pain/suffering and enhancements go to charity. Then you will see how many rituous cases you have.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk

[Igor_U]

12 hours ago, takair said:

Can an entire thread be deleted?

Yeah,

I'd be interested to hear about this as well! Apparently it can and I remember thread (or posts) about Mooney Co. personnel changes disappear since I couldn't find it when searching for it.

If that's the case, we might see this thread deleted as well.

Seems like in 1984, eh?

[FloridaMan]

7 hours ago, tommy123 said:

People always bring up the coffee lawsuit as frivolous when in reality a elderly woman sustained serious burns from overheated coffee n this case. She suffered permanent injuries.

And McDonald's had been warned multiple times regarding this. Their coffee spec was hot enough to cause severe burns in seconds. The damages were largely punitive and while the plaintiff can have windfall profits from punitive damages, it seems like a better place for those damages to go than, say, the state. It's the contingency that drives the lawyers to represent them. 

[tspear]

Just now, Antares said:

And McDonald's had been warned multiple times regarding this. Their coffee spec was hot enough to cause severe burns in seconds. The damages were largely punitive and while the plaintiff can have windfall profits from punitive damages, it seems like a better place for those damages to go than, say, the state. It's the contingency that drives the lawyers to represent them. 

So the consumer cannot read "hot coffee"?

The super hot coffee was a selling point of McDonald's. This is just a simple case people blaming others for their mistakes.

Now if McDonald's put super hot coffee in a paper cup with a little wax and the cup disintegrates, you may have a claim. But blaming the company because you got what you paid for is the ultimate in accountability shifting. And this is a symptom and the whole nanny state / helicopter parenting that has infected the civil system, and put many industries out of business or dam close (GA being one of them).

 

Tim

[ragedracer1977]

3 minutes ago, tspear said:

So the consumer cannot read "hot coffee"?

The super hot coffee was a selling point of McDonald's. This is just a simple case people blaming others for their mistakes.

Now if McDonald's put super hot coffee in a paper cup with a little wax and the cup disintegrates, you may have a claim. But blaming the company because you got what you paid for is the ultimate in accountability shifting. And this is a symptom and the whole nanny state / helicopter parenting that has infected the civil system, and put many industries out of business or dam close (GA being one of them).

 

Tim

You should spend 5 minutes reading the details of the case rather than regurgitating what you've been told.

[tspear]

1 minute ago, ragedracer1977 said:

You should spend 5 minutes reading the details of the case rather than regurgitating what you've been told.

Actually, I did read the published case documents when it was in court, but not the appeal. I have a lot of lawyers and teachers in the extended family and it was a regular discussion topic.

Tim

[steingar]

I still recall the crash where the pilot aft loaded the airplane in front of a bunch of other pilots, took off, entered a departure stall and crashed with the engine making full power.  Somehow some idiot jury got convinced the the crash was because of Lycoming's carburetors.  Also Philly, I believe.

[Marauder]

7 minutes ago, steingar said:

I still recall the crash where the pilot aft loaded the airplane in front of a bunch of other pilots, took off, entered a departure stall and crashed with the engine making full power.  Somehow some idiot jury got convinced the the crash was because of Lycoming's carburetors.  Also Philly, I believe.

Philly is a great place to file a lawsuit if you seek damages. 

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

You should spend 5 minutes reading the details of the case rather than regurgitating what you've been told.

THIS.  

[Bravoman]

10 hours ago, DXB said:

As an experienced civil litigator as well as a pilot, do you have any comment on the merit of this particular case?  I suspect you'd agree the barriers to this type of litigation going forward and succeeding in Philly are far lower  than much of the rest of the country.  

I don’t agree. Keep in mind that companies are vigorously  defended by excellent defense counsel, and there are dispassionate courts of appeal. It’s not as easy as you guys think anywhere, notwithstanding the venue.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Bravoman

[Bravoman]

10 hours ago, chrisk said:

McDonalds and Hot Coffee.  The barrier to frivolous law suites must not be that  high.  The issues I have with the civil justice system is the quality of the jury.  Just imagine your mom (or spouses mom) on the jury of a high tech patent case or a case like the one mentioned here.  You might have justice if the jury for an aircraft accident was filled with pilots and aircraft mechanics.

 I would not disagree that the jury award in that case might have been aberrationally high, but what a lot of people don’t know about that case is that the coffee was heated to the temperature of molten lava, I think north of 180°, which is unreasonable. The injuries were also fairly significant, as it caused second and 3rd° burns to someone’s genital area requiring a lot of medical treatment, including grafts. Once again, most people don’t know the facts. Our civil justice system is the best in the world. The cases you read about are very much the tip of the iceberg. The courts  and the juries usually get to the right result. As a matter of fact, in this particular case the jury award was written down significantly by the court to a fraction of its original size. Can’t remember the exact number.

[DXB]

It's easy for a skilled plaintiff's lawyer to build a compelling narrative that is tenuously linked to facts but still appears to meet the lowered standard of evidence required in civil cases. An ideal audience for such false narratives is a typical Philly juror - someone who is poor, uneducated, prone to feeling victimized by society. If you add in the lack of damage caps in Pennsylvania,  it's easy to see why Philly has become a magnet for these types of suits. The practice model for many plaintiff's firms in Philly is to quickly settle tons of garbage cases for fairly modest amounts of money.  The scope of the racket is hidden because terms of settlements are usually confidential, and it's usually cheaper and easier to pay a settlement than risk a trial before a Philly jury.  But in this case, the defendants have dug in, with pre-trial proceedings dragging on for almost 3 years. Sadly, the Wolk Firm  stills benefits some if they lose a jury trial after doing years of work on fee contingency. It burnishes their reputation as one of the premier aviation firms that will fight to the bitter end,  thus allowing them to command bigger settlements in more typical cases. If it gets tried, then at least the proceedings and outcome see the much-needed light of day, providing evidence of how the perverse system works and identifying the people who help perpetuate it.  

As I noted above, you can follow progress of this active case here:  https://fjdefile.phila.gov/efsfjd/zk_fjd_public_qry_03.zp_dktrpt_setup_idx?uid=zUa43gdNCIolqsSYDxam&o=DWgiXQ3dY!rzHdb   Enter Case ID 150702501.

 

[Igor_U]

2 hours ago, Bravoman said:

 I would not disagree that the jury award in that case might have been aberrationally high, but what a lot of people don’t know about that case is that the coffee was heated to the temperature of molten lava, I think north of 180°, which is unreasonable. 

I will not comment on a lawsuit but just a fact that good coffee (or tea) requires nothing less then boiling water - 212° F. All of my British friends complain about a quality of tea in US restaurants and that being a main reason... I tend to agree but I'm a coffee drinker.