S-TEC Looking for 15 Mooney owners

[MIm20c]

@McMooney relax and please delete your all caps profanity rant.  

[chrisk]

I have an STEC-30 with altitude hold.  It does 99% of what I need.  The one thing I want, which my autopilot does not have, is an auto descent profile.  I do see this as a safety feature.  Several times a year, we see a hypoxic pilot cruising on auto pilot, until they run out of fuel and crash.  It sure would be nice if the auto pilot would drop to 10,000 feet for 20 minutes after a prescribed location.   --Unfortunately, I am not sure if the STEC 3100 has this feature.  I do know upgrading my current STEC would cost $14K + install, and I would still have the old servos.  I'm finding it difficult to justify the cost vs benefit. 

By comparison, I can eventually go the route of a Garmin GFC with a G5, and have all new equipment for a lower price.  And I'd really like the backup AI.

 

[Bob_Belville]

@McMooney, I think that you will find that this is the wrong site for your x rated vocabulary. Most of the ladies and gentlemen here will welcome your posts if you can show us, and especially newbies here like Barry who bring us a vendor's viewpoint, respect.  

As suggested above, only you as the poster can delete or edit your objectionable post. Well, the admin could... 

[PeytonM]

My airplane came out of the factory in 1989 with a Century 2000 and the Century NSD HSI.  When the HSI went paws-up several years ago, the choices were limited to O/H, Aspen PFD, and a much more expensive Garmin option; the Aspen fit my mission and budget.  I have been happy; the interface was great and the Century flew a perfect ILS/LPV.  However, the Century 2000 is 28+ years old now, and starting to have regular trips to Texas, so I have started to look at options. Garmin, TruTrack, Trio and now Genesys have all come out with their offerings. I've tried to see what kind of servos and computers are behind each to do a compare and contrast, but details are limited. As a sage above said already: "the devil is in the details." For me, the most critical factor is: will Aspen and my Avidyne IFD440 interface and drive these autopilots?  The Garmin GFC500 will not; the GFC600 will, but Mooney is well down on their list, and it is very expensive (more than Genesys'.) THE Genesys3100 will, and I am not sure how TruTrack and Trio will play in my panel.  And then there is Dynon.

As far as pricing: market forces will drive the adoption.  The fittest (design, capability, pricing) will survive.  However, Mooney owners are enigmatic.  I have seen many examples on these pages of $30K airframes with $50K worth of upgrades.  Clearly we enjoy our airplanes: we paint them, upgrade interiors, and install avionics because it results in a safer airplane with more capability and...it is fun!  Hopefully you can share that joy with others, aviators and not, (and take your S.O. to Paris occasionally!)  I wish that Garmin would play well with others, but there are numerous examples where they have decided not to (why won't the GFC500 interface with Aspen?)  It's up to us to decide if we want competition, but not to the point where we pay thousands more for the same capability. 

I hope that many manufacturers monitor these type-sites like MS.  There is a lot of great customer input here, and it's free!  And as CBs, we want competition!

So, here I sit.  It's 4 degrees this morning; way to cold (for me) to fly anyway.  Oh, it is up to 10.  Heatwave!

[Steve W]

1 hour ago, PeytonM said:

I wish that Garmin would play well with others, but there are numerous examples where they have decided not to (why won't the GFC500 interface with Aspen?)

As I understand it the problem isn't that Garmin won't play with others, it's that the brains and display for the GFC500 are the G5 units(or for the experimental version the G3x touch). Whereas the GFC600 is the stand-alone version designed to integrate with Aspen, Garmin, etc. 

From what I've seen the GFC600 price is basically going to match the 3100 and the new King whatever(whenever it exists).

I've spoken with at least one shop who seemed to have some concerns with the build quality and repair capability for some of the other formerly-experimental autopilots, but since there are barely any of the certified versions installed I'm not sure if that's likely to be an actual issue.

The good news for me as I won't have any money for anything for a while so I get to let the rest of you be the early adopters and test everything out.

[Cris]

Well Let me go to the opposite side and say Thanks Barry! Just got off the phone with Barry who has extensive avionics experience but new to the Mooney crowd. I had contacted Stec to discuss what would be required to update a Stec 30 to either an Stec55X which I have or bettter yet. 3100.unfortunately the 3100 will require the same 15 participants as the M20R. This is due to certification costs. This is a TSO’d and STC’d product carries significant costs for each airframe. Barry spent quite a bit of time with me t explain the why and wherefore of the process. Let’s give him a break and the respect each of us deserves. He is simply trying to do his best for us as well as his employer. BTW any Eagle owners that want this autopilot let me know and I will help coordinate. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Cris

[MIm20c]

3 hours ago, Cris said:

Well Let me go to the opposite side and say Thanks Barry! Just got off the phone with Barry who has extensive avionics experience but new to the Mooney crowd. I had contacted Stec to discuss what would be required to update a Stec 30 to either an Stec55X which I have or bettter yet. 3100.unfortunately the 3100 will require the same 15 participants as the M20R. This is due to certification costs. This is a TSO’d and STC’d product carries significant costs for each airframe. Barry spent quite a bit of time with me t explain the why and wherefore of the process. Let’s give him a break and the respect each of us deserves. He is simply trying to do his best for us as well as his employer. BTW any Eagle owners that want this autopilot let me know and I will help coordinate. 

On the BT thread they stec is combining some similar aircraft for certification. I would think the eagle and ovation could be combined.

[Cris]

20 hours ago, MIm20c said:

On the BT thread they stec is combining some similar aircraft for certification. I would think the eagle and ovation could be combined.

I’ve also followed the BT thread and expected the same. Unfortunately according to Stec that would seem not to be the case. As it was explained to me the Mooney factory could do that as the mfg. as they did with the G1000 but Stec must follow the FAA STC process. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Cris
Update from ?Barry indicates that yes maybe some similar models of Mooney may be lumped together. I pointed out that the R & S with the 310 HP STC are identical AC

[xcrmckenna]

Well Let me go to the opposite side and say Thanks Barry! Just got off the phone with Barry who has extensive avionics experience but new to the Mooney crowd. I had contacted Stec to discuss what would be required to update a Stec 30 to either an Stec55X which I have or bettter yet. 3100.unfortunately the 3100 will require the same 15 participants as the M20R. This is due to certification costs. This is a TSO’d and STC’d product carries significant costs for each airframe. Barry spent quite a bit of time with me t explain the why and wherefore of the process. Let’s give him a break and the respect each of us deserves. He is simply trying to do his best for us as well as his employer. BTW any Eagle owners that want this autopilot let me know and I will help coordinate. 

What will it take to go from the 30 to the 55x?


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[carusoam]

Ugh...

The M, R, S, T, U, & V are so similar it terms of flight controls and flight characteristics.

The main difference is the density altitude the TC’d and TN’d Birds can operate in...

The laws of physics would allow the work to be done on the most challenging case, then apply to the rest...  pick the newest Acclaim for that.

The laws of the STC process definitely could use some updates.

PP thoughts only, but used this type of qualification process for FDA compliant machinery.  FDA And FAA seem to operate from the same play books.

Do we have 15 Mooneys of any one airframe with installed S-TEC APs?

I know a guy that can set up a poll if this would help collect some useful data...

Best regards,

-a-

[Cris]

17 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

What will it take to go from the 30 to the 55x?


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The short answer is an Stec 55x from either a M20 R or S donor aircraft together with the factory drawing and a willing shop to do the install. The servo’s are the same but there are wiring harness differances. The donor autopilot is serialized for a specific airframe serial number and is not cost effective to install unless it came out of an R or S as it would need to be returned to the factory. Some shops might require that in any event. I have the donor system but was waiting until a panel update which I just completed. Time to look at the next option. However as part of the panal upgrade  a new GPSS was installed. Its much less of an interest to me now but the 3100 would seem to offer some significant advantages. 

[xcrmckenna]

The short answer is an Stec 55x from either a M20 R or S donor aircraft together with the factory drawing and a willing shop to do the install. The servo’s are the same but there are wiring harness differances. The donor autopilot is serialized for a specific airframe serial number and is not cost effective to install unless it came out of an R or S as it would need to be returned to the factory. Some shops might require that in any event. I have the donor system but was waiting until a panel update which I just completed. Time to look at the next option. However as part of the panal upgrade  a new GPSS was installed. Its much less of an interest to me now but the 3100 would seem to offer some significant advantages. 

I have the gpss with alt hold on my 30 but haven’t tried to get it to track a very complicated approach. Have you? That was the main reason I wanted to upgrade for the added precision for ifr Flight. I really like the features of the 3100.


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[Cris]

2 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

I have the gpss with alt hold on my 30 but haven’t tried to get it to track a very complicated approach. Have you? That was the main reason I wanted to upgrade for the added precision for ifr Flight. I really like the features of the 3100.


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It was literally completed on Fri so I have not flown it yet but it should do exactly what any autopilot with GPSS does including the Stec 55 X and presumably the 3100. Only difference is it will only hold Altitude and not track the decent component as in an LPV approach.

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Cris

[xcrmckenna]

It was literally completed on Fri so I have not flown it yet but it should do exactly what any autopilot with GPSS does including the Stec 55 X and presumably the 3100. Only difference is it will only hold Altitude and not track the decent component. 
 

We’ll get out there and do some flying instead of replying to my comments!!!! hope you enjoy flying with it. I think I’m going to take my own advice as well.


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[chrisk]

5 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

I have the gpss with alt hold on my 30 but haven’t tried to get it to track a very complicated approach. Have you? That was the main reason I wanted to upgrade for the added precision for ifr Flight. I really like the features of the 3100.


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I have the stec 30 with altitude hold, and an aspen with gpss.   It does ok, with a standard LPV approach.  That said, I can fly them better by hand, particularly if there is a cross wind component.  I have not tired it on a DME arc, so I can't say how it does  there.  I'm not sure what would be more complicated than a dme arc. 

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, chrisk said:

I have the stec 30 with altitude hold, and an aspen with gpss.   It does ok, with a standard LPV approach.  That said, I can fly them better by hand, particularly if there is a cross wind component.  I have not tired it on a DME arc, so I can't say how it does  there.  I'm not sure what would be more complicated than a dme arc. 

I have a Sandel with GPSS and ALt30 and it does the Dme arc dead on. 

[SantosDumont]

Hmm... I have a STEC 30 w/ altitude hold on my F... so we would need 15 F's to get certified or just 15 M20s? 

[1964-M20E]

I have the STEC 30 with altitude hold on mine as well.  like someone else said it does 99% of what I need.  Being able to set climbs and descents would be nice as well as flying approaches almost hands off. However, one issue I have now is flying enough approaches.  My biggest issue would be panel space the STEC 30 uses the same space and is the turn coordinator.  The 3100 controller head would not have an easy place to reside It could be done but other items would have to move.

We all have a certain amount of discretionary income to spend on our beloved birds.

[M20kflyer99]

I'll be right upfront with you guys.  To put 20k+instlaltion for an AP into a plane that's worth 60k is absurd for most.  The avionics landscape is finally rapidly changing and the legacy companies will need to compete if they want the non-commercial GA market.  Barry, if you said 10-12k for a complete unit with installation, you'd have an order on your desk right now.

You market may be the very small newer mid 90's+ prod date of planes, which I can't see as being that big..

[Bike_rider]

Count me in on the PO.  I'm working with my shop now to ensure they submit it.  Hopefully this puts you over the top or very close! 

[Ned Gravel]

Isn't the Garmin GFC 500 coming in at close to 7 AMUs?  Digital, attitude based, etc?

[ArtVandelay]

Isn't the Garmin GFC 500 coming in at close to 7 AMUs?  Digital, attitude based, etc?

But it doesn’t work G1000, G500s IIRC, so for those this is comparable to GFC600 especially if you already have servos. I assume if using existing servos the installation is just a few AMUs.
Like most I am waiting on GFC500.

[Ned Gravel]

No G500/G600 for me.  G5 (HSI) is what I recently installed next to my new-to-me GNS 480.

A second one as an EFIS is what is needed to allow the GFC 500 to provide coupling of vertical component of an approach.  My difficulty is finding a reason to change out my STEC 50 for a GFC 500. Coupling the vertical component of an approach is nice, but I am not certain I really need that as much as having the G5 do a hold for me in bumpy clag - which I have now confirmed it can do.   The avionics shop tells me that my STEC is not providing as fine a correction as it could and they may have to install a resistor some where. 

Getting the second G5 has another advantage - no more partial panel caused by loss of vacuum pump.  First G5 rid me of the need to continually correct for DG precession (now that I have a magnetometer) and it allows me to leave my STEC in HDG mode.  

[Cris]

23 hours ago, Bike_rider said:

Count me in on the PO.  I'm working with my shop now to ensure they submit it.  Hopefully this puts you over the top or very close! 

Please Send to Barry LeBlanc the name of your shop as well as your contact info. so that he can include you on the list. There is a disconnect between the PO’s and the shops submitting them. By letting Barry know he can follow up and be sure the PO is counted. Still short as of this week. 

[Bike_rider]

I left a voicemail with Barry and am having my shop contact him directly.  Will follow up to make sure he knows.  Thanks for the reminder.