Practicing stalls in a Mooney

[gsxrpilot]

I'm happy to demonstrate any stall with an examiner or CFI on board for a flight review or checkride. But I don't see the need to practice them and never do.

[Mooneymite]

Even though I answered "no", your poll required me to answer the subsequent questions...which I didn't do.  I presume my answer was not counted?

I did many stalls in my Mooney while getting acquainted, but I don't do them any more unless I'm demonstrating them.  I do practice stalls in my other airplane and I get stall recognition/recovery every year at work, but not in a Mooney.

While I am aware that spins in a Mooney can be "special", stalls are not.  The Mooney is a very docile, predictable certified airplane that stalls pretty much like any other similar aircraft.

[Guitarmaster]

I had to think about the full power departure stall. Mostly no on that for a practical reason. If the purpose is recognition and recovery, in most aircraft I have found the nose position with full power to be too high to be a valid analog of a real departure stall. I think partial power makes for a more realistic simulation of something which could happen.

Unless you're high and hot. Then a departure stall would be a very shallow deck angle.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[jetdriven]

If you pull it off the runway too early the departure stall is also at a pretty shallow pitch attitude. You can simulate this by slowing to 55-60 KIAS with gear down and flaps half, and then smoothly adding power and keeping the airspeed where it is, then pull up more to stall.  Its a lower pitch than you think. All that induced drag takes it toll.

[Danb]

I do practice stalls occasionally, I've read above how docile our Mooneys stall, they can have a bite at times, during a flight review about 6 years ago I did a few with the instructor onboard on the last we not only had a nasty stall but went into a spin at 3000 feet, recovered at about 1800. I respect them more, I have to assume since I practice them once in awhile is the reason I recovered so nicely. Respect was gained.

[Bartman]

I spoke with Mooneymite and apparently the poll did not work the way I thought it would. Apparently if you answer "No" to the first question and click submit then you get a message saying you have more questions that must be answered. This may have affected the results of the poll. Sorry for any confusion. If someone ever tries to do a multi-layered poll like this in the future please list an appropriate response in the subsequent questions. 

Oh well, I learned something, just not what I thought I would.

[ArtVandelay]

While I am aware that spins in a Mooney can be "special", stalls are not.  The Mooney is a very docile, predictable certified airplane that stalls pretty much like any other similar aircraft.

I disagree with the above blanket statement.

Maybe short bodies are docile.

But when they extended the tail for the mid bodies, they didn’t change the wing location so that effectively moves CG aft. They also move batteries back there, which makes the mid bodies more balanced. When they went to the long bodies they added a pair extra cylinders which added weight and extended the nose.

I’ll defer to more experience CFIs who have flown all models, but seems to me the mid bodies would be the least docile.

First stall I did in my J resulted in a 90° wing drop, and I never had that happen in the C & P planes I had flown. All I did was pull it back to get a full stall break, a little aggressive, my next stalls were very gentle.

I would not practice stalls below 8000’, the POH recommends at least 6000.

[Skates97]

In my short body the power off stall is docile, the power on stall is docile, sometimes... The first one I did in transition training I had the stall and gave it one more pull on the yoke and it snapped over. I had told my CFI to be ready and he took the plane and recovered it after about a half spin. The next time once I got the stall I recovered immediately and it was not bad. The first one gave me a bit of a scare, first time I had gone into a spin. 

I still want to go out and do some actual spin training with one of the local schools that does it. 

[RobertGary1]

Departure stalls are important because the indication of stall is very different than a power off stall. The prop wash causes the inner wing to stall later so you get less buffeting warning. I have students do both and I have them talk me through the warnings preceding the stall (sloppy controls, horn, micro-buffets, macro-buffets). 

Remember that at high DA your departure stall can happen at a level pitch attitude  Fly by airspeed, not pitch  

-Robert

[Skates97]

Just now, RobertGary1 said:

Departure stalls are important because the indication of stall is very different than a power off stall. The prop wash causes the inner wing to stall later so you get less buffeting warning. I have students do both and I have them talk me through the warnings preceding the stall (sloppy controls, horn, micro-buffets, macro-buffets). 

Remember that at high DA your departure stall can happen at a level pitch attitude  Fly by airspeed, not pitch  

-Robert

Summer take offs in UT with DA above 8,000 makes for very shallow (low pitch attitude) take offs and about 200-300fpm climbs in my plane. 

[donkaye]

Practicing slow flight and stalls are very important.  The only stall that should NOT and I repeat NOT be practiced in a Mooney is the cross controlled stall.  I did a writeup about my experience with one about 15 years ago.  I think it is on my website.  I have experienced out of rig older Mooneys that have the desire to go into a spin at the stall.  That's why I aways do the first stall with a student before we practice them.  I've never experienced a long body having a tendency to enter a spin at the stall.  Each airplane has been test flown at the Factory to set up the stall strips for a perfect straight ahead stall.

I do power on stalls at the Commercial recommend power setting of 65%.  Any higher power setting gets the Mooney into a very high nose attitude, and at full power probably an attitude defined as aerobatic.

Being able to fly all the range of power settings enables you to accommodate ATC directives without flying a cross country.  For example if ATC tells you to follow a Boeing 737 5 miles out, number 2 cleared to land, Caution Wake Turbulence, it would be a good idea to go to slow flight to kill time before turning base rather than flying a downwind cross country.

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

I disagree with the above blanket statement.

Mooney was certified just like a lot of other airplanes.  Basic piloting skills should be sufficient.

In my experience, there are planes with nasty characteristics, but Mooney isn't one of them.

Practice makes perfect.

[201er]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Fly by airspeed, not pitch  

-Robert

Airspeed, just like pitch attitude, is all relative.

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

Airspeed, just like pitch attitude, is all relative.

Indicated airspeed is self correcting for density so fly the airspeed Vy or Vx as appropriate. Pitch will vary with conditions. 

-Robert

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, Guitarmaster said:

Unless you're high and hot. Then a departure stall would be a very shallow deck angle.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

Why "unless"? High and hot and poor control on a go-around  are not simulated in the "book" full power departure stall.

Actually, neither is the high density altitude departure stall. In a sense, that one actually is simulated by the partial power departure stall.

[donkaye]

16 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Mooney was certified just like a lot of other airplanes.  Basic piloting skills should be sufficient.

In my experience, there are planes with nasty characteristics, but Mooney isn't one of them.

Practice makes perfect.

As you're spinning down out of a cross controlled stall in a Mooney and normal recovery techniques aren't working, I'd like you to calmly say that again.

[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Indicated airspeed is self correcting for density so fly the airspeed Vy or Vx as appropriate. Pitch will vary with conditions. 

-Robert

Not quite sue what you mean. Yes, you fly the appropriate Vx or Vy, but those change with altitude.  The POH will typically show the differences. In the Mooney Js, the Vy Delta is about 0.7 KIAS per 1,000 feet density altitude.

Approach speeds don't change.

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, donkaye said:

As you're spinning down out of a cross controlled stall in a Mooney and normal recovery techniques aren't working, I like you to calmly say that again.

Don have you ever ended up in a spin in a Mooney - can you share your experience?  I have heard its not fun.

[Hank]

36 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Don have you ever ended up in a spin in a Mooney - can you share your experience?  I have heard its not fun.

The writeup of his cross-controlled stall / spin is on his website. Pour a drink before you read it . . . It's something I will continue to work hard to not experience myself!

[aviatoreb]

19 minutes ago, Hank said:

The writeup of his cross-controlled stall / spin is on his website. Pour a drink before you read it . . . It's something I will continue to work hard to not experience myself!

I will look..

[Guitarmaster]

Why "unless"? High and hot and poor control on a go-around  are not simulated in the "book" full power departure stall.
Actually, neither is the high density altitude departure stall. In a sense, that one actually is simulated by the partial power departure stall.

It's about training. Train like you fly and fly like you train. Do you do partial power takeoffs? Probably not. So a partial power stall is negative training.
I agree that the deck angle is extreme with standard conditions and the only real way to get in trouble is distraction. But...
If your brain associates full forward throttle with a certain deck angle, then you can be caught off guard when departing in a high or hot condition. Add in an obstacle to clear and, well...
Personally, I find a full stall a mostly useless maneuver (except to see how your airplane breaks). Much more useful is recognition and recovery BEFORE the break. In addition, slow flight (MCA) is critical to practice.
Train like you fly.


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Mooneymite]

9 hours ago, donkaye said:

As you're spinning down out of a cross controlled stall in a Mooney and normal recovery techniques aren't working, I like you to calmly say that again.

Don, my first experience with a cross controlled stall was in a Navy T-34B as a primary student.  The demo was to emphasize why keeping the ball centered is important.  The maneuver resulted in a(n unintentional) spin.  I learned a lot that day.

A cross controlled (excessive bottom rudder) stall and intentional spin entry are pretty darn close.  To take an airplane which is placarded against intentional spins and use it to practice cross-controlled stalls seems like something best left to test pilots and the suicidal.  A supercub, or a Citabria seems a better choice of aircraft.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Guitarmaster said:

It's about training. Train like you fly and fly like you train. Do you do partial power takeoffs? Probably not. So a partial power stall is negative training.
I agree that the deck angle is extreme with standard conditions and the only real way to get in trouble is distraction. But...
If your brain associates full forward throttle with a certain deck angle, then you can be caught off guard when departing in a high or hot condition. Add in an obstacle to clear and, well...
Personally, I find a full stall a mostly useless maneuver (except to see how your airplane breaks). Much more useful is recognition and recovery BEFORE the break. In addition, slow flight (MCA) is critical to practice.
Train like you fly.


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

 Guess those are my problems.

I don't fly around close to a stall or intentionally stall an airplane in regular flight operations (touchdown excepted) but do train for it.

I don't associate a stall - arrival or departure - with a certain deck angle.

[wcb]

As far as practicing power on stalls and thinking you will never be in that situation ask Cooperd0g a Naval Pilot that this year not only did it, but did it into a tree line.  Somehow was blessed to survive.  Prior Proper Planning(Practice) Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Look up his post on here regarding his incident at Hummel Field W75.

[wcb]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 5:25 PM, DAVIDWH said:

Two Words:

Svetlana Kapanina

Russian world aerobatic champion

Many u-tube videos available

 

 

Skip to about 16:30 and start watching from there