Cheapest/easiest ADS-B option for old-style steam gage M20R (2000)

[Andy95W]

4 hours ago, Cruiser said:

My understanding is that most jet/airliner are NOT equipped with ADSB. Almost all of them are equipped with TCAS. The TCAS signal is broadcast on the 1090 frequency so if you have a 1090 ADSB in device it  would detect them.

Airliners are only just starting to be ADS-B compliant, but brand new ones are of course equipped.  (My wife is a maintenance manager at a large regional airline so she's seeing it happen, slowly, first hand.)

All airliners are required to have TCAS.  They do "ping" 1090 transponders to force a reply, just like ATC radar sites.  (That is why TCAS works even outside of radar coverage areas.). This ping and reply does not do anything with ADS-B, unless that aircraft happened to have a 1090ES compliant transponder.

[Mooneymite]

19 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Airliners are only just starting to be ADS-B compliant......

And ADS-C equiped as well.  All part of FANS.

 

[StevenL757]

5 hours ago, EricJ said:

My understanding is that if anybody with ADS-B out is around to stimulate a tower transmission, anyone can receive the TIS-B/FIS-B transmissions from the tower and benefit from them, whether they have ADS-B out or not.    I don't have ADS-B out (yet) but get traffic/wx/etc frequently even in remote areas.

I did have a jet (looked like Beech Premier) pass me and turn in front of me the other day while I was between Deer Valley and Scottsdale (so I'm pretty sure he came out of Scottsdale).   The notable part was that I'm sure he saw me because he passed and turned in front me, but he did not show up as ADS-B traffic on my tablet.   This place is always thick with traffic and most of it shows up on the tablet, so it seemed a little strange to me that this guy didn't.   Personally, I'm looking forward to the mandate being complete.

Yeah, true about getting traffic, weather, etc without ADS-B, however, my part of my point earlier was that this is still service-based, and subject to coverage gaps.  To again help address Peter's original question - using your example and to Andy's point - assuming the same jet that passed and turned in front of you was equipped with at least a Mode-A transponder, you would have picked him up on TAS/TCAS if you were so-equipped.

Steve

[Cruiser]

I don't think so....... I believe TCAS requires at least Mode C transponder.

[Andy95W]

A Mode-A transponder will give a TCAS traffic alert with a location, but no altitude information. When TCAS alerts to a Mode-C transponder, it can also give climb or descend instructions to the TCAS equipped crew.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Yeah, true about getting traffic, weather, etc without ADS-B, however, my part of my point earlier was that this is still service-based, and subject to coverage gaps.  To again help address Peter's original question - using your example and to Andy's point - assuming the same jet that passed and turned in front of you was equipped with at least a Mode-A transponder, you would have picked him up on TAS/TCAS if you were so-equipped.

Steve

Yes.   I figured he had TAS/TCAS which may be how he knew where I was.   I, however, do not have TAS/TCAS in my beater.   Around here there's enough ADS-B traffic and towers that I just figure I'll get nearly everything on the tablet one way or another including TIS-B.   Apparently not, though!

[StevenL757]

Your "beater"??  Now what would she do if she heard you calling her that...especially in flight?  :-)

[EricJ]

15 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Your "beater"??  Now what would she do if she heard you calling her that...especially in flight?  :-)

Believe me, she's already punished me more than enough that I'll never catch up.   She goes by "Drama Queen", which is totally fitting for this bird.

[PTK]

On 12/28/2017 at 9:03 PM, StevenL757 said:

So Peter, to further help answer your traffic question, should Jim and/or Hank (as examples) choose not to equip for “out” capability, you would not see them on an ADS-B In-equipped piece of hardware, but would indeed see them on TAS/TCAS.

Steve

But I would see them with TIS-B would I not?

To me Targetrend is much to valuable and that eliminates the Lynx.

 

[StevenL757]

You're talking about 2 different technologies and feature sets.  TargetTrend is a proprietary technology to Garmin that is generated by a GDL88 (and GDL84).  You can receive ADS-B through any GTS-8xx active traffic display, but the GTS units don't have the software or capability to display targets using ADSB symbology...they use standard TCAS symbols.

The Lynx - whilst able to display both ADS-B and TCAS symbology on their unit - cannot display ADS-B symbology on a Garmin PFD,/MFD (G500), or navigator (GTN), but CAN display both types of targets using TCAS symbology.  So...for example, if you see 5 targets on your Lynx and two of them show up as ADS-B targets, all five would show up on your Garmin PFD/MFD and/or GTN using standard TCAS symbology.

Steve

[Hank]

As long as Mr. Garmin doesn't run into my non-ADS-B self, I'll be happy . . . . .

So please, please, please--look out the windows where I am, not just at your fancy panel displays, where I might not be!

Edited January 8, 2018 by Hank

[PTK]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

You're talking about 2 different technologies and feature sets.  TargetTrend is a proprietary technology to Garmin that is generated by a GDL88 (and GDL84).  You can receive ADS-B through any GTS-8xx active traffic display, but the GTS units don't have the software or capability to display targets using ADSB symbology...they use standard TCAS symbols.

The Lynx - whilst able to display both ADS-B and TCAS symbology on their unit - cannot display ADS-B symbology on a Garmin PFD,/MFD (G500), or navigator (GTN), but CAN display both types of targets using TCAS symbology.  So...for example, if you see 5 targets on your Lynx and two of them show up as ADS-B targets, all five would show up on your Garmin PFD/MFD and/or GTN using standard TCAS symbology.

Steve

The 345 is dual frequency in. This means that it will receive ADSB-R (rebroadcast traffic  that’s 978 out being rebroadcast on 1090.) And it will receive the traffic that has no ADS -B at all on board (like the Hanks of the world) through TIS-B. According to the FAA that covers the entire country.

And come 2020 for sure I don’t see where ADS-B would be lacking. And even the Hanks of the world probably will see the value of ADS-B by then!

So, unless I’m missing something, Garmin targettrend and terminaltraffic are far more valuable. It’s a huge step forward to be able to resolve traffic in relation to own ship. 

 

 

[Marauder]

The 345 is dual frequency in. This means that it will receive ADSB-R (rebroadcast traffic  that’s 978 out being rebroadcast on 1090.) And it will receive the traffic that has no ADS -B at all on board (like the Hanks of the world) through TIS-B. According to the FAA that covers the entire country.
And come 2020 for sure I don’t see where ADS-B would be lacking. And even the Hanks of the world probably will see the value of ADS-B by then!
So, unless I’m missing something, Garmin targettrend and terminaltraffic are far more valuable. It’s a huge step forward to be able to resolve traffic in relation to own ship. 
 
 

The only way Hank will see this value is if he flies with someone who has it and they get a traffic alert and the panel lights up like Times Square. I’ve always been an eagle eye when it comes to picking up traffic. This technology adds a whole new dimension of awareness that augments what you can see.




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[Hank]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

 

The only way Hank will see this value is if he flies with someone who has it and they get a traffic alert and the panel lights up like Times Square. I’ve always been an eagle eye when it comes to picking up traffic. This technology adds a whole new dimension of awareness that augments what you can see.




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The only way I'll see enough value to match purchase + removal of something I use + install labor is if I develop the need to fly to Bravo & Charlie airspace often . . . .

[StevenL757]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

The 345 is dual frequency in. This means that it will receive ADSB-R (rebroadcast traffic  that’s 978 out being rebroadcast on 1090.) And it will receive the traffic that has no ADS -B at all on board (like the Hanks of the world) through TIS-B. According to the FAA that covers the entire country.

And come 2020 for sure I don’t see where ADS-B would be lacking. And even the Hanks of the world probably will see the value of ADS-B by then!

So, unless I’m missing something, Garmin targettrend and terminaltraffic are far more valuable. It’s a huge step forward to be able to resolve traffic in relation to own ship. 

So the correct statement here should be that you CAN receive rebroadcast traffic...which again is subject to coverage areas.  Be careful not to misinterpret the FAA's statement of "covering the entire country" as being able to receive "all of the traffic all of the time"...which is an incorrect assumption.

Second, I'm not suggesting ADS-B won't be valuable...just that it has and will continue to experience teething pains long after the magical 2020 date passes.

To your last sentence...more valuable than what exactly?  The best and only chance I have to see all targets having an operating transponder is via a TAS/TCAS solution - which again, is not subject to coverage gaps, nor reliant upon a rebroadcast of anything.  Period.

Steve

[Marauder]

The only way I'll see enough value to match purchase + removal of something I use + install labor is if I develop the need to fly to Bravo & Charlie airspace often . . . .

During the summer I fly the gauntlet between Philly B and the SFRA of Washington. Fly with me during the summer sometime and I’ll make you a believer. The gauntlet is outside the mandate area as well.


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[Danb]

Couldn't agree more it's amazing how many planes are in your area you never knew of, yesterday few folks were flying due to the cold spell,  there was a plane 100 ft above and coming at me at one o'clock me nor my experienced copilot saw the plane until it just passed overhead. The panel and iPad was in full alert mode. 

[Little Dipper]

58 minutes ago, Danb said:

Couldn't agree more it's amazing how many planes are in your area you never knew of, yesterday few folks were flying due to the cold spell,  there was a plane 100 ft above and coming at me at one o'clock me nor my experienced copilot saw the plane until it just passed overhead. The panel and iPad was in full alert mode. 

That happens to me more often than I'd like to omit.

[MIm20c]

4 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

So the correct statement here should be that you CAN receive rebroadcast traffic...which again is subject to coverage areas.  Be careful not to misinterpret the FAA's statement of "covering the entire country" as being able to receive "all of the traffic all of the time"...which is an incorrect assumption.

Second, I'm not suggesting ADS-B won't be valuable...just that it has and will continue to experience teething pains long after the magical 2020 date passes.

To your last sentence...more valuable than what exactly?  The best and only chance I have to see all targets having an operating transponder is via a TAS/TCAS solution - which again, is not subject to coverage gaps, nor reliant upon a rebroadcast of anything.  Period.

Steve

The 345 will also combine adsb and skywatch. I feel that active traffic combined with adsb is by far the best way to go before and after 2020. 

[PTK]

On 1/8/2018 at 6:33 PM, MIm20c said:

The 345 will also combine adsb and skywatch. I feel that active traffic combined with adsb is by far the best way to go before and after 2020. 

In my view we have two ADS-B systems which approach and present traffic differently. The Lynx 9000+ includes active traffic and with ATAS enabled (extra charge) it provides voice alerts. The cost is about 9K. The other is the GTX345 which includes targettrend and terminaltraffic.  Cost is 4.5K. 

Although ATAS is nice it's basically voice alerts and not targettrend. It's a huge step forward to have a dynamic presentation of traffic. To see traffic threats in real time and be able to see where it is now and where it will be in the future in relation to own ship. Active traffic is nice but I think it will be less and less relevant come 2020 and beyond. ADS-B is here to stay and it's the future.  Also I'm turned off by L3 charging extra for their voice alerts! That's tacky and it should be included as far as I'm concerned.

I have arrived at this conclusion after researching both systems. Unless something changes I don't think I'd pay twice as much and miss out on targettrend technology. If L3 develops their version of dynamic traffic similar to targettrend and includes it in their Lynx I'd consider it.

 

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

Also I'm turned off by L3 charging extra for their voice alerts! That's tacky and it should be included as far as I'm concerned.

Got mine for free, it also comes with the Ngt9000+  as standard, and they give it to you for attending a seminar/webinar. It is a simple unlock code as they added the feature ability as an update to the firmware. Look for cool new features to be added (because they can) like they did with terrain warning, after all, this is also a wifi router in reality. The NGT9000 could easily fill the role of the FS510 without the extra charge of still yet another box and still yet another amu or 2 in labor. I dont think the 345 is anywhere near as scaleable or feature rich as is. 

[PTK]

43 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Got mine for free, it also comes with the Ngt9000+  as standard, and they give it to you for attending a seminar/webinar. It is a simple unlock code as they added the feature ability as an update to the firmware. Look for cool new features to be added (because they can) like they did with terrain warning, after all, this is also a wifi router in reality. The NGT9000 could easily fill the role of the FS510 without the extra charge of still yet another box and still yet another amu or 2 in labor. I dont think the 345 is anywhere near as scaleable or feature rich as is. 

But no dynamic traffic presentation of any sort in the Lynx.

And the FS510 is not "yet another box and still yet another amu or 2 in labor."...

Are you researching these things Mike or just reacting because Garmin's GTX345 is eating L3's lunch?

 

[mike_elliott]

26 minutes ago, PTK said:

But no dynamic traffic presentation.

It does present very nicely on the IPAD mini,(FlyQ) the aspen, the GNS, and the lynx itself. It was the only solution that could. It shows me the trend vector on all but the GNS, like target trend.  To me, this is dynamic, along with the audible callouts.  It is presented in the SV view of the Aspen much like Garmin does with its big boy products like the G500, G1000 and G1000nxi that have SV.

 

26 minutes ago, PTK said:

And the FS510 is not "yet another box and still yet another amu or 2 in labor."...

I stand corrected, the FS510 is a $1495 micro sd card that wont work with the GNS series of Garmins. Its the Flightstream 210 that is 995 plus an amu or 2 in labor that will work with the GNS and GTN's. Imagine a "tacky" $500 unlock from L3 that could do all this without the hassle of another box or card to lose/go bad.

[PTK]

13 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

It does present very nicely on the IPAD mini,(FlyQ) the aspen, the GNS, and the lynx itself. It was the only solution that could. It shows me the trend vector on all but the GNS, like target trend.  To me, this is dynamic, along with the audible callouts.  It is presented in the SV view of the Aspen much like Garmin does with its big boy products like the G500, G1000 and G1000nxi that have SV.

 

I stand corrected, its a $1495 micro sd card that wont work with the GNS series of Garmins. Its the Flightstream 210 that is 995 plus an amu or 2 in labor that will work with the GNS and GTN's. Imagine a "tacky" $500 unlock from L3 that could do all this without the hassle of another box or card to lose/go bad.

Mike the Lynx traffic presentation is not dynamic. Look at about 2:18 on this video. This is dynamic. Do you see how this removes any guesswork and how it's a huge step forward in presenting traffic? The Lynx cannot do this. Hopefully they will in the future because it's a giant leap forward in safety.

 

 

 

 

[Marauder]

I have flown both with TargetTrend and the L-3 9000+ with ATAS. No research, actual usage. All TargetTrend gives you is the relative path and closure rate of a target. In other words, the line coming out of the back of the target indicates you are closing in on a target.

 

Here is a TargetTrend display showing up on my iPad. The threat is behind me, 100 feet low and the yellow line shows the relative direction of the plane, in this case away from me.

 

 

Comparing the Garmin 345 and Lynx L-3 9000+ is not fair to either product. To make a 345 equivalent to the 9000+ you would need to spend thousands more on the TAS box from Garmin (the 800 series). As well, the 345 has TargetTrend but the equivalent ATAS needs to be added (although it is obtained free numerous ways).

 

The good news is the L-3 offering is supported on the Garmin certified boxes as shown below. You still get alerts on everything.

 

 

And the L-3 stuff shows up Aspen and various apps.

 

 

Where the real power of the ATAS is its ability to distinguish between a real threat and numerous targets that on Garmin TargetTrend you need to determine (before it displays a warning) if the threat will happen. The ATAS verbally tells you where to look. You hear, you look for traffic.

 

This clutter photo is in your backyard Peter. The Trump TFR and Philly Class B. When I flew this, Philly would not let me into the Class B. None of these targets came up as a threat.

 

 

 

 

 

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