Engine failure, what phase of flight?

[MIm20c]

Over the last couple of days I’ve really started to think about engine failures.  Being a fairly low time pilot I hope to gain a lot more experience before I have to deal with one. 

I’m wondering if there is any info on when failures occur? I would think takeoff and climb would be a lot higher probability per hour especially when looking at the short duration. 

Also what component failures cause an immediate loss of power?  I’m thinking a lot of items could be inspected.  What percentage of failures are internal (split the cases to inspect) surprises?

[RobertGary1]

14 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

 

Also what component failures cause an immediate loss of power?  I’m thinking a lot of items could be inspected.  What percentage of failures are internal (split the cases to inspect) surprises?

In my case the nut on the piston end cap backed off. It was 1000 SFNEW engine from Lycoming. These bolts are stretched but there is no hardware securing them (no cotter pin, safety wire, etc). It was about 10 minutes after take off. I only had a heads up because my voice annunciator alerted me to the fact that oil temps were rising. That gave me a couple minutes  or so before pressure started to drop. Once the nut fully backed out then everything just came apart.

 

-Robert

[N201MKTurbo]

The overwhelming reason that engines quit is lack of fuel. After that is lack of oil.

My experience after over 4500 hours flying behind a Lycoming IO-360 is that they rarely catastrophically quit. they will usually give you a lot of warning if you will just listen.

[N6758N]

I agree with Rich.

They might not be as reliable as a modern automobile engine, but they very rarely quit without giving some sign of distress. Paying careful attention to oil filters, an engine monitor, and any unusual sounds, smells, etc... can go a long way to prevent a failure. However, sometimes you can't know an engines complete history without tearing it down and sending out the pieces. I suspect that in the case of the recent E that crashed in Burbank, they will find something the previous owner did/didn't do that caused the failure. At least given their history in the past of putting airplanes back together. I think this is the 3rd one this individual has 'fixed' and sold that has crashed now...

[steingar]

Engine failures are still quite rare, and far outnumbered by stupid pilot tricks.

[carusoam]

A couple of valve issues have occurred on T/O...

Stuck and bent valve and a matching scar on the piston...

T/O has a lot of stress involved with the engine.  Temperatures changing, forces growing, full power (100%+) at low density altitude....

My O360 stuck a valve in the first 10 hours of ownership. Having a JPI would have helped.  The new Mooney pilot and young CFI were able to recognize it still had enough power to complete a loop through the traffic pattern and safely get back on the ground...  it was not able to climb. Heavy shaking vibration...

It essentially had an oil issue... the valve guides were coked up with cooked oil.  Thousands of hours flying without an engine monitor by the previous owner, then sitting outside for a year or so...

Best regards,

-a-

[KLRDMD]

10 hours ago, N6758N said:

I suspect that in the case of the recent E that crashed in Burbank, they will find something the previous owner did/didn't do that caused the failure. At least given their history in the past of putting airplanes back together. I think this is the 3rd one this individual has 'fixed' and sold that has crashed now...

More than three, I think 

[jetdriven]

Thing is the latest prospective owner was warned by a long time member as to the kind of seller JP was, and his post was removed. Seems the seller has graduated to "pillar of the community", somehow. Just ask yourself what kind of community you want. FWIW I also pleaded with Craig about this person and got nowhere, too. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by jetdriven

[Guest]

Isn't it a little premature to throw someone under the bus until we know the cause of the engine failure?

To the original poster, engines rarely fail mechanically, they are quite tough and reliable when assembled correctly.  More common failures are fuel system related, engines have two magnetos, two spark plugs per cylinder but only one carburetor or fuel injector.

Clarence

[Mooney in Oz]

Some years ago without warning, I suffered a sudden and total engine failure in my J whilst in cruise after about 10 minutes of flying. Glided into a paddock wheels up and survived with no injuries. Engine later ran fine when bolted onto the test mechanism. Fuel injection system was disassembled and thoroughly examined with no issues. Aircraft had approximately 160 litres of fuel remaining with no evidence of contamination. The power just very suddenly stopped as evident by the JPI data, which did not reveal any other issue. WTF?

Due to the suddenness of failure, an electrical issue was strongly suspected. The only smoking gun was a broken P lead and much carbon inside the starter ignition switch with obvious evidence of arcing, probably for a lengthy period of time. The switch was original and changed out for the latest, which does not present this problem.  

Unbeknown to me or my engineer at the time, we later discovered this older switch was the subject of previous documentation issued by the New Zealand CAA (there was also another country authority, but I can’t recall the one) for this type of switch to be examined every 500 hours or replaced with the latest type switch. To my knowledge neither the FAA or even Mooney had actioned any documentation relating to this issue. 

No one can be 100% certain the switch was totally to blame, but the P lead and ignition switch was the only evidence relating to the failure.

Despite less than 100% certainty, I implore all members who still have the old style ignition switch to PLEASE have it changed out. The later style switch is the same as in the Acclaim and Ovations. I don’t know if the early Ovations have the same. The later style key has the name ‘Medico’ on it and can only be acquired through Mooney. 

Mlm20c -  Flying is risky business. I do it for a living and love flying my Mooney even more. We can only mitigate the risks as best we can. One of my mitigation’s is to avoid night flying as much as possible.

Victor

[PTK]

On 9/26/2017 at 1:52 PM, MIm20c said:

Over the last couple of days I’ve really started to think about engine failures...Mlm20

I’m wondering if there is any info on when failures occur?...

Also what component failures cause an immediate loss of power?  I’m thinking a lot of items could be inspected.  What percentage of failures are internal (split the cases to inspect) surprises?

Mlm20c, you ask some very good questions. Short of a turbine engine becoming available to transform our Mooneys into turboprops, there are things we can do to drastically decrease our chances of experiencing catastrophic engine failure. Here is a concise article that explains the subject very well. 

https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2014/04/09/how-do-piston-aircraft-engines-fail/

[N601RX]

For the  members who may not be familiar with what Jim and Byron are talking about you can read the NTSB report of the seller here and form your own opinion.  This is the same person who is the seller in the recent crash. I had also suggested the recent crash pilot read it before purchasing the plane. Be sure to read the entire report, especially the additional data section at the end and aircraft information section.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001205X00519&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

Edited September 27, 2017 by N601RX

[Browncbr1]

Dang, I didn't know gixxer got his plane from Morristown.   I visited there several times in the past to look and saw (and was told) some really shady stuff.   I'm so glad I followed my instincts back then.  

[neilpilot]

I owned N1310W, a 64E, from 1989 thru it's demise in 2012.  Between 2010 and 2012 I experienced 3 incidents where my engine suddenly lost power and/or ran very rough.  During this period plugs and injectors were inspected and cleaned, new plugs were installed, ignition wiring was tested, and mags were O/H.  I also sent the entire fuel injection system out for O/H. 

Throughout the 2 year period we found some issues, such as a spec of dirt in an injector or a lead ball in a lower plug.  None of these findings were considered serious enough to explain these few incidents, which were few and far between.  Between these incidents, the engine ran fine. 

Then in 2012 I had my final engine out incident (to date).  After the off-field landing the 64E was totaled.  Later inspection revealed an internal blockage in the fuel injection system THAT THE SHOP THAT DID THE PRIOR O/H SAID WAS IN AN AREA THAT THEY NORMALLY DO NOT INSPECT.  The blockage was apparently very intermittent, since the aircraft ran fine 99% of the time and passes a bench test before the incident.  It also almost passed a bench test after the incident.

[N6758N]

1 hour ago, N601RX said:

For the  members who may not be familiar with what Jim and Byron are talking about you can read the NTSB report of the seller here and form your own opinion.  This is the same person who is the seller in the recent crash. I had also suggested the recent crash pilot read it before purchasing the plane. Be sure to read the entire report, especially the additional data section at the end and aircraft information section.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001205X00519&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

Every time I read that report I just shake my head. 

[jetdriven]

Don't forget N9218m. It was on eBay and I asked him about the plane. After a couple exchanges he kinda admits it was flooded but totally refurbished it. Radios lit up fine, it's all ok now. 

Someone likely bought this plane without knowing the history.  Does the sellers mechanic know the engine was completely submerged in flood water? What would Lycoming say about that? And even if they did know, the airframe is not airworthy and never would be again.  

But you can get a great deal. maybe kill your whole family but at least you got a good deal  

http://www.avclaims.com/N9218M.html

http://www.avclaims.com/N9218M Photos.htm

http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N9218M

 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

20 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I’m wondering if there is any info on when failures occur?

When I used to fly jets, the consensus was that the culprit was almost always during significant power changes.  One reason you find the "High" approaches is so the old military jets could stay at altitude until they were close enough to glide the rest of the way.  (That and go more than 250 kts as long as possible.)  A lot has changed since those days, with jet engines being much more reliable, but I suspect abrupt power changes are still one of the most frequent causes/contributors to dead engines, recips included.

Training changed over the years, and I saw too many of my fellow C-12 pilots abruptly pull back the throttles to descend 2000', then abruptly shove them back forward once at altitude.  I constantly corrected that behavior, but obviously the training command was not doing a very good job.

I once had a power-loss in my P-172.  The engine developed carburetor icing due to a hose clamp falling off the carb heat tube.  I had pulled the Carb Heat handle, but it did no good.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Ah-1 Cobra Pilot

[N6758N]

38 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Don't forget N9218m. It was on eBay and I asked him about the plane. After a couple exchanges he kinda admits it was flooded but totally refurbished it. Radios lit up fine, it's all ok now. 

Someone likely bought this plane without knowing the history.  Does the sellers mechanic know the engine was completely submerged in flood water? What would Lycoming say about that? And even if they did know, the airframe is not airworthy and never would be again.  

But you can get a great deal. maybe kill your whole family but at least you got a good deal  

http://www.avclaims.com/N9218M.html

http://www.avclaims.com/N9218M Photos.htm

http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N9218M

 

Didn't this one go in as well Byron?

[Jerry 5TJ]

Re engine failure risk in any phase of flight:

The PA46 community is about half turbine, half turbocharged piston. Nearly identical airframes throughout the fleet.  Around 2,000 airplanes so the sample is statistically useful.  

Why is this interesting to Mooney flyers?  Because the turbine engines are at least 10 times more reliable than their piston brethren. Perhaps 100 times.   However, the PA46 fatal accident rate is the same across the fleet.

The message seems clear: it's not engine failure that's our main risk in GA.   

Perhaps it is like swimming in the ocean on a fine day at the beach -- we worry about sharks but the far larger risk is drowning.

 

 

 

[MIm20c]

I really appreciate all the comments. However, what it really boils down to is this guy...

I’m planning on putting 100 hrs on the plane to shake out both the pilot and plane before I take him up. However, the common failure items I want to have inspected no matter how expensive it is. 

[N201MKTurbo]

42 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I really appreciate all the comments. However, what it really boils down to is this guy...

I’m planning on putting 100 hrs on the plane to shake out both the pilot and plane before I take him up. However, the common failure items I want to have inspected no matter how expensive it is. 

When my kid was about that big I took him up flying.

I strapped his car seat into the co pilots seat.

When I was about 200 feet high he put both feet on the yoke and pushed as hard as he could. ( the little guy was stronger then he looks)

They don't tell you about that in flying school!

[PMcClure]

2 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Me too. It is very difficult to read, and I’m sure infinitely more so for those who were involved. 

That was a very important aspect of my warning to Chris, but it also had to do with his expectations to turn such a plane into a night IMC rideshare platform for a bunch of young private pilots in a very high traffic and population density area.  It was the perfect storm and the outcome was unfortunately predictable.  It is a miracle no one was hurt. 

What is amazing to me is that with everything they did wrong, it was the insect that brought them down. Except for that, they probably would have made it home. 

[Andy95W]

Interesting thread.  

Started by one father who wants to protect his son, finishes with a different father who basically killed his own son through his negligence.

[PTK]

10 hours ago, N601RX said:

For the  members who may not be familiar with what Jim and Byron are talking about you can read the NTSB report of the seller here and form your own opinion.  This is the same person who is the seller in the recent crash. I had also suggested the recent crash pilot read it before purchasing the plane. Be sure to read the entire report, especially the additional data section at the end and aircraft information section.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001205X00519&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

What kind of father does this to his own son? At what point does this kind of intentional behavior become criminal? Has the FAA taken any action or made any referal for criminal investigation? How many planes need to  fall out of the sky for the feds to lock this guy up?

[Guest]

9 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Don't forget N9218m. It was on eBay and I asked him about the plane. After a couple exchanges he kinda admits it was flooded but totally refurbished it. Radios lit up fine, it's all ok now. 

Someone likely bought this plane without knowing the history.  Does the sellers mechanic know the engine was completely submerged in flood water? What would Lycoming say about that? And even if they did know, the airframe is not airworthy and never would be again. 

 

 

Was the submersion in fresh or salt water?  

Can you provide some proof that a submersion renders an airframe in airworthy.  Is it an FAA regulation? 

It sounds a lot like you statement that Comanches have the highest inflight break up rate, yet when asked for proof you could never provide evidence to support your statement.

Looking forward to some evidence.

Clarence