Do you really need a #2 NAV/COM?

[Firebird2xc]

2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I was building the best panel I could but without spending for anything I didn't need or wouldn't benefit from. So even though the KX165 looks a bit out of place, I just wouldn't spend anything on a second nav/com as I really didn't think I'd ever use it. And the truth is, in 30 hours of IFR, several IMC approaches in very low conditions, and I've never needed the second nav/comm.  It's fine to have it, and I've got nothing against having the second nav/comm, but as I never use it, I'm glad I didn't spend anything on it.

I'm confident that in an emergency situation my handheld radio, my iPad, iPhone, stopwatch, compass, etc. will get me back on the ground safely.

You and I are of the same mindset, sir.  A handheld radio and iPad GPS with Stratus will certainly get you on the ground.

If I'm VFR and switch freqs outside airport areas to call FSS, nobody cares.  If I can pull ATIS without second in panel radio, I don't think it matters to have it.  This is proof of concept, though-  the second NAV source can still run through the same box.  Easy-peasy.

Thanks for sharing, man.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I was thinking this very same way, that a 2nd comm might not be even all that useful. I've been doing quite a bit of IFR flying lately and have been evaluating what it's like not to have a second comm.

Everyone's seen my panel and you'll know that I have an IFD540 as my primary GPS/Nav/Comm/Transponder/ADSB/etc. I did install a KX165 just to have a second nav/comm. I also installed the PMA450a audio panel. With the PMA450a, I never need to use the second comm. It supports monitoring standby frequencies. And the IFD540 supports multiple standby freq's. So I can get ATIS without ever leaving ATC and all with a single Comm. 

I've logged about 30 hours of IFR in the last two months all without using the KX165 at all.  But to be fair, its the IFD540 and PMA450a combo that make that easy.

The ability to monitor the standby frequency is something common the every Apollo that I'm aware of, as well as the Garmin GNS480, the follow on to the Apollo CNX80.  It's quite handy.

Clarence

[smccray]

5 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I wouldn't fly IFR without a #2 COM.  But NAV? Totally fine with that, since I'm not busting around in low IFR anyway unless I'm at work.  If it came down to losing #1 NAV, I'd declare an emergency using my #2 COM and use my portable GPS.

It's basic CRM to me- with a second COM radio, you can ask for help from a wide range of people.  Without it, you're on your own.  I'd rather ask for radar vectors to VFR conditions than wander around NORDO trying to track a VOR course to unknown weather conditions.

So I had my 165 go out on me- I flew IFR in relatively good weather.  I don't fly really low ifr anyway, but this is exactly where my head is at. In the 5 years I've owned my plane I have needed the #2 nav exactly zero times. I use the number 2 comm every flight- if nothing else I use it to pick up the atis coming back into DFW. 

On my gns480 (appolo radio) I can monitor a standby frequency, but the monitor cuts out when the primary frequency is busy. Coming into DFW regional approach, or I assume any busy sector, is not a time to plan on getting much use out of that function.

Using the audio panel to receive the standby freq is nice functionality if it's available, but I wouldn't omit a second comm from the panel. Ifr gps is primary nav/comm with a handheald backing up the nav function. If GPS fails, use the nav, if the ifr nav/comm fails use the portable GPS. I would still want a separate piece of hardware to facilitate communications other than my portable radio.  

[Marauder]

As someone who lost comms on IFR flights in IMC, having a second comm took a lot of the stress out of the situations. It wasn't until I partially lost comm on a relatively new GTN and the Narco #2 radio at the same time that I took the number 2 importance in the panel a bit more seriously (everyone remembers their lost comm procedures right?). Based on that experience, I yanked the Narco and installed a 16W Garmin 255B.

 

I'm currently working through another issue with the GTN that I appreciate having a solid #2 in the panel.

 

In the picture below, can anyone tell me what is going on with these radios?

 

 

Since I'm in the process of replacing my fuel senders, I decided to investigate the condition of my GTN coax and antenna. What I found is the shop that installed the GTN never took the time to run new coax. And the condition of the coax, well, let's say it is time. My coax is factory original. Held in place with metal clips. So just because you have a fancy new radio in the panel, doesn't mean you won't have issues.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[ArtVandelay]

 
@gsxrpilot
This is interesting.  If the aiplane I buy has a 530 or 430, the plug and play swap to an Avidyne is up for consideration.

The 650/750 do this as well, but you can't listen to both simultaneously, as you can with a 2nd com.

[Raptor05121]

I don't even do IFR yet and I find a second NAV/COM insanely helpful! VFR flight following for me all the time

[Bob_Belville]

I replaced a KNS80 with a GTN750 and kept the #2 NavCom which is a KX155 w GS. I use the 2nd radio every flight. When flying formation we monitor ATC while communicating on a air to air freq. Being able to switch xmit freq by touching the audio panel buttons is important. When getting ASOS/AWOS/ATIS I often listen to the recorded message with a finger on the ap button just in case ATC calls. A KX155 is a strong radio and still very functional. If the GTN goes out I can still shoot a localizer or an ILS and legally/safely get down through a low ceiling with a 696 and a tablet backup for situational awareness.

A C150 with a single navcom can be legal for IFR. But for serious IFR travel legal would not be adequate for most of us.

[neilpilot]

9 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Portable comm radios leave much to be desired in flight without an external antenna and a headset/intercom input, and there is a good chance the batteries will be dead when you finally find yourself needing them.  I like having two comm radios, personally.  How many times have you heard ATC struggling to communicate with some other pilot and he switches to number two and all is well?  

I generally agree, though, that maintaining stuff in the panel that is never used is to be avoided.  I use number two for monitoring guard and picking up ATIS.

Jim

Agree that you should us an external antenna connection & headset adopter with a portable com.  I had external antennae jacks installed in both my Mooneys, and their relatively cheap.  I've also had the need to use a portable several times (2 electrical failures in my 64E, and more recentlyin our 65C 2 issues that turned out to be a faulty intercom, that prevented transmission on coms 1 & 2).  In all cases, the portable seems to transmit/receive as well as a panel unit.

As for batteries, I don't carry the Nicad recharge pack that comes with the portable.  I bought the conversion pack that uses AA batteries.  I carry copious AA, since they also power my flashlights and portable GPS.   

Edited August 25, 2017 by neilpilot
grammar, battery size

[Marauder]

5 hours ago, teejayevans said:

The 650/750 do this as well, but you can't listen to both simultaneously, as you can with a 2nd com.

That feature is also on the 255B I have in the panel. I find the PS Engineering 450 with 3D audio really makes it easy to listen to the second radio. It is amazing how your brain is able to process dual sounds coming into each ear.

[Bob - S50]

Here is what the regs say about needing two nav/comms:

"(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown."

Nothing about needing two.  As a matter of fact, when I flew the T37 in the Air Force it had one VOR/LOC (no GS) and one UHF COMM.  Period.  We flew IFR all the time.  But you better know your lost comm procedures.

The GTN series will also let you listen to 2 frequencies at the same time.  You can set up the ATIS as the monitor freq and ATC as the primary.  But as someone else already said, functionally it isn't very useful because every time something is said on the primary freq, it cuts out the monitor freq.  I don't know how they know, but that always seems to happen at the same part of the ATIS every time.  Right when they are giving the altimeter or the winds.  How do it know?

With that said, I really like having two ways to navigate and two comms.  I too use comm two to listen to ATIS/ASOS.  Also, when doing an Angel Flight and I've got one of my partners with me, when we land I can talk to ATC and my partner can call the FBO on #2 at the same time to let them know we are headed their way.  When we fly an ILS, I set it up in both navs so I can compare them.

Required?  No.  Smart?  Yes.  Especially if the airplane already has one so there is no extra cost involved.

[Marauder]

52 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

Agree that you should us an external antenna connection & headset adopter with a portable com.  I had external antennae jacks installed in both my Mooneys, and their relatively cheap.  I've also had the need to use a portable several times (2 electrical failures in my 64E, and more recentlyin our 65C 2 issues that turned out to be a faulty intercom, that prevented transmission on coms 1 & 2).  In all cases, the portable seems to transmit/receive as well as a panel unit.

As for batteries, I don't carry the Nicad recharge pack that comes with the portable.  I bought the conversion pack that uses AA batteries.  I carry copious AA, since they also power my flashlights and portable GPS.   

I learned the hard way that these inline splitters that allow the portable coms to attach to the airplane's antenna can fail and cause issues. Not sure if mine failed because of the lack of usage, but when it failed, it took out that com's antenna.

[Marauder]

4 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

 

The GTN series will also let you listen to 2 frequencies at the same time.  You can set up the ATIS as the monitor freq and ATC as the primary.  But as someone else already said, functionally it isn't very useful because every time something is said on the primary freq, it cuts out the monitor freq.  I don't know how they know, but that always seems to happen at the same part of the ATIS every time.  Right when they are giving the altimeter or the winds.  How do it know?

My personal belief is the second frequency interruptions is a conspiracy created by the same people who brought you the "Mooney XXXXX, I have a new routing for you, advise when ready to copy" just as you are reaching an assigned altitude and about to enter a bumpy cloud. 

[HRM]

14 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

I don't even do IFR yet and I find a second NAV/COM insanely helpful! VFR flight following for me all the time

Ditto. Just the thought of NORDO makes me NERVOUS.

[thinwing]

On 8/25/2017 at 7:53 AM, Marauder said:

My personal belief is the second frequency interruptions is a conspiracy created by the same people who brought you the "Mooney XXXXX, I have a new routing for you, advise when ready to copy" just as you are reaching an assigned altitude and about to enter a bumpy cloud. 

And it's a complicated reroute...no cleared direct xxxxx,the rest as filed....