Tips on Landing a Mooney Bravo?

[Skywarrior]

Hello, all -

Am having difficulty with landings in my Bravo. My approaches are fine UNTIL... I round out for landing. I continually either pull back too hard on the yoke, or not enough. Then I float about six feet above the runway and start stalling.

Never had this problem in Cessnas, but I'm looking like a novice in my new bird, and it's keeping me from passing my BFR.

I've viewed Don Kaye's landings video (which is very helpful), but I'm still not "getting it".

Can anyone offer tips to help me? It's so embarrassing...

 

Chuck M.

[sleepingsquirrel]

 HI,

 I had too much Cessna muscle memory when I got my M20 B. I know it's not a Bravo , but round out was one of my pre-conceived landing notions. What you described is how some of my first landings were not the best. I have found that the trick of looking down the runway to the end is helping me from pulling the nose higher than necessary. It's almost like a "glassy water" seaplane landing. Pitch,power, patience. She will land. I'm more consistant now that I'm not rushing the touchdown to a picked spot. Not that I can't do it but I'm learning a new plane as well ( my wife informed me just this week end that I can't land a Mooney). I'm sure that some of the more experienced Mooney pilots might remember their early experiences.

 I was just admiring a Bravo this week end ,but  it may be  too long to round out like a C172. It is a stately machine and looks as if it should be landed in a stately manner, so I can empathize with you.

[carqwik]

A few tips:

1) Speed control is essential.  A good stabilized approach below 500' AGL is important.  Cross the fence at 75 kts or slightly less depending on weight.

2) Make sure the throttle is at idle.  Even a hint of power will extend the float.

3) Never force a Bravo to land.  It will get ugly fast.

4) Speed control again - the Bravo will land when it's ready.  Excess speed destroys good landings unless you're patient and willing to continue flying in the float.  See #3 above.

5) Use your trim...don't be stingy with it.  It requires quite a bit of nose up trim.

6) Be patient...never quit flying the plane.

7) Use full flaps except in gusty wind conditions.

Go fly with Don Kaye or another experienced Bravo driver. 

 

Ken

[John Pleisse]

Speed control, agreed is paramount. Avoid deep high nosed falring. Just land a hair flatter and if you are hot, go around. One doesn't have the tail room for a pronounced flare when needed.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: Skywarrior

Hello, all -

Am having difficulty with landings in my Bravo. My approaches are fine UNTIL... I round out for landing. I continually either pull back too hard on the yoke, or not enough. Then I float about six feet above the runway and start stalling.

Never had this problem in Cessnas, but I'm looking like a novice in my new bird, and it's keeping me from passing my BFR.

I've viewed Don Kaye's landings video (which is very helpful), but I'm still not "getting it".

Can anyone offer tips to help me? It's so embarrassing...

 

Chuck M

Chuck-

Where are you looking during the flare?  I would suggest looking way down the runway and NOT just off the nose if that's what your doing.  That helps...alot.  In my K I just hold it off and let it settle onto the runway.  It's basically a flat pitch not too much nose up...you might need a little nose up pitch in the long bodies but again...not to much. Your floating because your way too fast. Speed control is key. Fly by the numbers.  Without that nothing else is going to matter because your leaving too much to chance..  My POH calls for 75KTS indictaed on final.  I like 70 better especially when I'm light.  "Be patient and wait for it" I remember my instructor telling me during my commercial training.  If you do that you will hear the chirp of the tires every time.   I have seen alot of Mooney Drivers use the "chop and drop" approach.  They find themselves too high/fast on final and just pull the throttle back to idle and float in for a couple of mile.  Constant refinement of power on final is key as well...keep your hand on the throttle the whole time...always making small adjustemnts. Think power on/ stabalized approach at 75 kts indicated on final....makes me want to go out and do some touch and goes now!  Avoid pushing the nose forward to compensate for whatever you might have going on in the landing flare...bad things happen to our Mooney's when we do that.

[Piloto]

Chuck

You are not the first having the landing problem. The floating that you are experiencing is due to the close proximity of the wing to the ground that creates an air cushion when flaps are extended thus prolonging the flare. You can either try coming at lower speed over the fence 70 -75 kts or raising the flaps after the start of the flare. Raising the flaps will insure no floating. Just raise the flaps if you find you are floating. The plane will pitch up slightly and touchdown gently without the need to pull on the yoke. I use the procedure quite often specially in gusty and crosswind conditions were the floating effect can cause severe bouncing and lead to prop strike.

José   

 

[thinwing]

Ah...landing a bravo...first of all load up a couple 90 lb cement bags and throw them in the baggage area....ah no just kidding...Most of the above advice on speed control is right on...but the bravo compared to anything else I have flown has a very narrow envelope or sweet spot for nice landings.I have got a whoopin whole year or 170 hrs inN1050q.I have found that everyonce in a while I will bounce the thing just like every once in a while I get a squeaker.6 months ago I a spell of lousy landings but a little throttle would always save a bounce as will immediate back pressure.The problem is that if you come in hot say at 90 kts short final right after breaking out at 400 agl the runway is right in front of you .You throw out full flaps and get the immediate pitch down...over the approach end you enter ground effect and start trimming all the way back.My Bravo will happily glide 5000 ft just 2 ft from the ground in this configuration.That is better than my Ventus B 15 meter Standard Class sailplane.!!!The slighest flare at this point will result in a nice 5/6 ft balloon followed by a Thud (hey how come my i suddenly got a wing weep).So your choice is go arround after the balloon or add a little throttle to cushion the thud.For some reason the obvious holding it at a 7 degree pitch attiude (the same pitch attitude as on the ground),no higher than say a foot above the runway and wait for the runway to come up and grab you,no body seems to be able to do.Its the fault of the biscuits,or the weight of that big 6 out front,or the wing itself...but it is never the pilots fault!!!So just keep practicing,keep it light ,no more than half tanks.Make sure any junk in the airplane is all the way in back.No faster than 75 short final.The Bravo rates for me the snd hardest a/c to land well behind a Pitts s1s ....have fun with it,...sinc kp couch

[flyboy0681]

I just passed my 30th hour behind the wheel of an M20J and learned early on (OK, I was told by people here) to come in over the numbers as close to 70 as I can and keep my thumb on the electric trim to the point where it's starting to get slightly nose high. I've found that unlike the Cessna I don't balloon at all.

[blacknchrome]

I think it's a great landing airplane - I think the keys are airspeed control, throttle to idle over the numbers, look down the runway (big picture-not tunnel vision), fairly flat attitude and hold that, thumb on the trim switch, slight back pressure, and patience!  Let it land - do not force it down. 

[sleepingsquirrel]

Hi , I just took a look at your photos and I know what the problem is . It's not your fault as Thinwing suggests.  You got a three bladed propeller!

[docket]

I have around 900 landings in my S model but once in a while a landing is going to screw up.   Usually what gets me is direct crosswind with a request from the tower for maximum speed to the field.  Usually, if I cross the fence at 90 kts I know it is going to be a long (read 3000 foot float) which is ok because I have a 7000 foot runway.  If I cross at 80 kts it is a 2000 foot float and at 70 kts it is a 500 foot float.  Even though I know better, I will still come in hot and high on occasion especially when they say cross mid field at 1600 feet, make a short downwind and dump for landing.   Remember, its not the first bounce that gets the prop so keep the hand near the throttle and add a little power to arrest the bounce then settle to the runway. 

[FlyDave]

Chuck,

I had problems landing my 201 for the first 5 or 6 months that I had it. It was pretty frustrating until I figured it out. I haven't flown a Bravo but here's how I land my 201:

1. 
   
2. 90 KIAS downwind, 1/3 flaps
   
3. 80 KIAS on base & 1/3 more flaps
   
4. Turn final and full flaps
   
5. 70 KIAS short final
   
6. 65 KIAS over the threshold and throttle all the way back (unles you have a long displaced threshhold)
   
7. Begin trimming the nose up at this point. Not all at once but trim, wait, trim some more, wait trim a little more ending up with about 3/4 nose-up trim. The airplane will continue to slow and gently descend. You'll get the stall warning  - don't let that throw you off - it's normal - and THE AIRPLANE WILL EASE ITSELF onto the runway gently...no need to force it. It's a beautiful thing!!
   

Obviously, cross-wind landings are different but try this on a calm day to get a feel for it.

Best of luck

[FlyDave]

One more thing to keep your flap deployment/retraction smooth:

Flaps down, trim up

Flaps up, trim down

[Piloto]

Chuck

Another thing that causes long floating is the engine idle speed. Verify that your engine idle speed is not higher than 700 rpm when the engine is warm. I tipically close the throtle completely when the end of the runway is in front of me. Sometimes even before if I am too high or too fast.

José   

 

[TLSDriver]

I just got checked out in a Bravo.  The instructor had me cross the fence at 80kts.  As soon as I did power was gently reduced to just a bit over idle.  (If you pull the power back to idle the nose heavy Bravo will complain.)  Short story is over the numbers at 70 seemed to be magic.

 

Here is the other thing that he had me do.  I had a BIG trim up set.  I had 5-10 lbs of foward pressure to keep the plange going downhill.

Once you cross the numbers you relax the back pressure.  The nose comes up in an almost perfect landing attitude.  This took some getting used to for me but I was worth the exercise.

[flyboy0681]

TLSDriver reiterated my technique exactly. I guess that means that it works.

[Parker_Woodruff]

It's all airspeed control.  Folks that say "a Mooney is going to land when it feels like it" are not exercising proper airspeed control.  Don't make it more complicated than it is.  Pitch to control airspeed, power to control altitude.  Rule of thumb - keep your touchdown point in the same place on the windscreen throughout the entire approach.

[MARZ]

Quote: TLSDriver

Here is the other thing that he had me do.  I had a BIG trim up set.  I had 5-10 lbs of foward pressure to keep the plange going downhill.

Once you cross the numbers you relax the back pressure.  The nose comes up in an almost perfect landing attitude.  This took some getting used to for me but I was worth the exercise.

[231Pilot]

Quote: maropers

I would think that one over again - the best is neutral pressure on the yoke at the right attitude for approach.  My view is that if you have that much forward pressure on the approach you are more than likely too much up trim in the case of a go around.  just my 2 cents.

[Skywarrior]

/rant on

During my most-recent dual instruction flight, my instructor commented, "When you're on final approach, your attitude is perfect - just keep that same attitude until touchdown - you don't need to flare at all."

Fighting the urge to say, "Are you RETARDED???", I told him that didn't sound right to me. (I used to teach Aerodynamics to Student Naval Aviators in Pensacola.)

YES, I need to stop pulling the nose WAY up, I agree. But, *his* method would have me striking the nosewheel first.

What I need to do is just flatten the airplane's attitude when I'm over the numbers, and simply slow the rate of descent - NOT perform a carrier landing.

/rant off

Muchas gracias to all who have contributed tips - this is a great community.

 

Chuck M.

[MARZ]

Quote: Skywarrior

YES, I need to stop pulling the nose WAY up, I agree. But, *his* method would have me striking the nosewheel first.

What I need to do is just flatten the airplane's attitude when I'm over the numbers, and simply slow the rate of descent - NOT perform a carrier landing.

 

 

 

I have to echo Flydave  I'm a 120 hr ppl - 50 in my 67 F  manual gear and hydraulic flaps (LOVE EM by the way)

Here's what worked for me in my transition training.  My instructor told me to fly the plane outside and he would call the speed, descent rate and rpm.  I would adjust without having to lose sight of my landing picture.

After a few bounce and goes here is what I learned

100 mph on the downwind - abeam the numbers pull the manifold pressure to 15  drop gear, two pumps on the flaps (approach flaps)  trim to 90 mph

Turn base at 700ft agl trim to 85 mph and keep it coming down

Turn final full flaps trim to 80 mph and adjust throttle for glide on the papi .  (on gusty days a bit more speed and no more than approach flaps)

Over the fence at 80 mph - start my flare over the numbers, the plane starts to drop @ 70 mph - keep holding it off speed will drop to 63 or so and I'm on the ground.

I'll get a good landing 85% of the time and an acceptable (won't cause leaks in the tanks) landing the rest.   Of course I'm striving for greasers 100% of the time but I'm a realist

My take on this whole landing thing is to guide the plane to the ground - heck of a lot easier than flying it there...

 Have FUN!!

[TLSDriver]

I see your point about go arounds and stalls.  

I had a bad habit of pumping the yolk as I tried to feel for the runway.  It wasn't good technique and it sure wasn't smooth for the pax.

I notice that when I have up trim on short final all I have to do is relax that foward pressue.  My landings have gotten much more consistant and the pax think so too.  I get the sight picture I want, get the airspeed pegged, cross the fence and gradually reduce the power.  Over the numbers relax the yolk.  No more pumping. 

With the nose heavy Bravo a sudden chop of the power may get your attention as that nose wants to drop.  With trim neutral the yolk travel may be to big to be consistant. 

Maybe, like most things in life, moderation is the key.  

 

 

 

[FlyDave]

Quote: TLSDriver

Maybe, like most things in life, moderation is the key.

 

[donshapansky]

I have found that when the speed is where it's supposed to be, the flare is the challenge, when it's time to flair I never pull back on the controls. I simply engage the trim up button and hold it all the way through the flair. It works for me!

[Jeff_S]

This may not apply to a long-body, but it's what I found helped transition to the J after the Warrior. I'll keep a skosh of power on until roundout, trying to flatten the arc very close to the tarmac. Then with power off I'll just keep adding back pressure to keep the nose where it is in the sight picture and let the tail ease onto the ground. I like to visualize the mains just "sitting" onto the pavement.

Doesn't always work perfectly, but when it does I have that moment of saying "when is this thing going to land?" before realizing you're already down. Dusk is the best time for this: usually no wind, and you can celebrate an awesome sunset cruise!