Garmin product announcement July 18

[Bennett]

Based on Garmin's history around approvals, I tend to agree.
And just when I thought I got my cockpit spending habits under control from the upgrade last year...damn.  :-)

Amen to that. The new autopilot sounds very attractive, especially in light of my maintenance costs (including servos and AI rebuilds) for my aging KAP 150. I've said I really like the old sacred six gauges (I'm an old timer), but I had Dynons in my DOVA for a few years without problems (although I prefer a ASI round gauge to a tape presentation). But it would be worth it to get rid of my standard vacuum system, back-up electrical vacuum pump, and two vacuum gauges.


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[gsxrpilot]

29 minutes ago, smccray said:

Paul-

If you would expand on this post I would really like to read it.  From the outside looking in, I don't see a reason to spend the $ for the Aspen, and I am in a position where I need to send my HSI out for work.  There are capabilities with the Aspen that are attractive to me (e.g. legacy radio integration, SVT), but I don't see the price premium at this point, particularly when I think about a backup AHARS from a dual G5 setup.

This won't be complete as I'm still learning how to use the Aspen.

1. OAT, TAS, GS, Wind direction and velocity all displayed in one area. I know all this can be calculated, but it's nice having up to the second information on wind. Yesterday flying home to Austin, we were weaving around buildups and the winds kept changing significantly. I was able to make a couple of course changes that both got me around the big stuff and shortened the flight. It was all based on watching the wind on the Aspen. At one point in the flight I'd told ATC I was going to 12.5. I noted the wind direction and strength as we went through 10.5. Upon reaching the top of climb, I quickly realized the wind was a bit better at 10.5 and told ATC we were going back down. I believe having immediate information on OAT, TAS, GS, and Wind helps me fly more efficiently/cheaply.
2. Multiple Nav sources. I can have up to four Nav sources displayed on the Aspen HSI simultaneously. Last flight I was displaying the GPS course from the IFD540 along with the VOR from the IFD540, the VOR from the KX165 and the heading bug all at the same time. I can then switch the autopilot between all of them as needed. 
3. Map depiction on HSI. An HSI is a wonderful instrument for navigation and the ability to paint the upcoming course on the HSI makes it even more useful. Seeing the Hold, Direction Change or Approach course depicted right on the HSI is pretty cool. This might have been number 4, but I also like that I can switch the HSI from a 360 degree view to an Arc view at the touch of a button. The Arc view seems easier when making subtle changes to course or flying the heading bug, but sometimes as with holds or course reversal turns, seeing the full 360 circle with the reciprocal is nicer.
4. One minor feature, but one I found very nice to have on a flight last Friday is the Minimums bug. You can set the Minimum altitude for an approach and it is displayed prominently in numbers on the AI. It's not a bug that I'm expecting to come scrolling up the altitude tape. It also will alarm when you reach it. Of course you can set it for any value, so setting it for 100' above minimums works just as well. I shot an ILS approach to 500' on Friday and it was nice to have that minimum altitude right in front of me as I was descending on the ILS.

The final version of the G5 AI/HSI might have these features as well, but there's no way to know at the moment. 

The main thing I like about the G5 so far is its easy to set the baro pressure. The one button is there to change the baro as it's primary function. So I found myself setting that first every time I got a new setting from ATC.  Otherwise, the G5 seems like a very nice but basic AI plus tapes. The Aspen is a full featured PFD computer giving me lots of information if I want it or allowing me to remove what I don't want. It's just much more full featured and flexible it seems to me. 

But I'm still learning to use all of it's functions. Hope this helps.

[thinwing]

On 7/12/2017 at 4:03 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'm betting on an autopilot. But of course the last time they had a big announcement it was a big nothing burger.

Winner!

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, MooneyBob said:

Do you know how much was the EA100 installed ? Do I need one for my Century IIB AP? I got quoted $5400 and that seems a little too much. Thanks 

The part alone is $2795

http://aspenavionics.com/pricing

[smccray]

Post on Beechtalk from the webinar- GAD29B is included with the GMU11 magnetometer at the current $2975 price.  Wow.

[peevee]

56 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

1. Multiple Nav sources. I can have up to four Nav sources displayed on the Aspen HSI simultaneously. Last flight I was displaying the GPS course from the IFD540 along with the VOR from the IFD540, the VOR from the KX165 and the heading bug all at the same time. I can then switch the autopilot between all of them as needed. 

 

that's one aspen function I find to be pretty confusing. I need to play with it some more I guess.

[PTK]

2 hours ago, peevee said:

...If we can replace our king 256 with a g5 and drive the AP off the Garmin for 3k in parts that would be very attractive.

Unfortunately we can't. Garmin is interested in selling the GFC500 for which the G5 provides attitude reference. I'm disappointed but I don't blame them. If they did support third party AP's with attitude  reference it would be competing with the G500 and GAD43E.

[peevee]

40 minutes ago, PTK said:

Unfortunately we can't. Garmin is interested in selling the GFC500 for which the G5 provides attitude reference. I'm disappointed but I don't blame them. If they did support third party AP's with attitude  reference it would be competing with the G500 and GAD43E.

oh, heading and course. Damn, I didn't notice the absence of attitude. Well, s***.

 

"Garmin also announced third-party autopilot interfaces for the G5 EHSI/DG, which provides heading and course data to existing S-TEC, Century and BendixKing autopilots. This requires the new GAD29B adapter."

[PTK]

7 minutes ago, peevee said:

oh, heading and course. Damn, I didn't notice the absence of attitude. Well, shit.

The KI300 looks to be the only option to eliminate vacuum. Any news on the KI300? 

A KI300 and a G5 HSI would be a nice pair.

[peevee]

14 minutes ago, PTK said:

The KI300 looks to be the only option to eliminate vacuum. Any news on the KI300? 

A KI300 and a G5 HSI would be a nice pair.

or the $5k aspen interface but at that point might as well spend 10 and get a new, better AP.

[Bennett]

I spoke to a major Garmin avionics shop today and I was told that Garmin was setting up a special tent as Oshkosh to seek input on the priorities for their STCs relative to the autopilots. The suggestion was to have all interested Mooney pilots to visit that Garmin tent and push Mooney towards the top of the list. Also Garmin will be soliciting input as to what is wanted in future features. Good chance to speak directly to decision makers. I am not going to Oshkosh this year, so I can't directly participate.


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[KSMooniac]

Challenge accepted! I can't wait to put eyes on the new stuff.

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[aviatoreb]

57 minutes ago, Bennett said:

I spoke to a major Garmin avionics shop today and I was told that Garmin was setting up a special tent as Oshkosh to seek input on the priorities for their STCs relative to the autopilots. The suggestion was to have all interested Mooney pilots to visit that Garmin tent and push Mooney towards the top of the list. Also Garmin will be soliciting input as to what is wanted in future features. Good chance to speak directly to decision makers. I am not going to Oshkosh this year, so I can't directly participate.


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Email them to your interest - I did and they even replied within a half hour.  Mooney to the front of the line team.

[Godfather]

I hope this spurs a lot off new installs to update the fleet. My guess is around $15-17k for a couple g5's and the 500 AP installed. 

Pretty much solidifies my decision to use the G5 as my backup AI for my panel makeover. A backup AI, backup HSI, and now possibly a backup source to drive my 225 AP. 

Sooo are four AI's too many for a small mooney panel ?

Edited July 19, 2017 by Godfather

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

The KI300 looks to be the only option to eliminate vacuum. Any news on the KI300?

any day now Peter, any day.......

[gsxrpilot]

Hmmm... I'd have removed my vacuum system, but it's driving my speed brakes. But it's not hooked to anything in the panel any longer. And all without a KI300.

[Greg_D]

9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I wonder what this does to Stec. My local avionics shop thinks it will be the nail in their preverbal coffin.

And it will be the final nail in Bendix King’s coffin.  I can’t wait to rip out their stuff, especially after their recent announcement about support for their products!

[jamesm]

I just added the 2nd G5 as HSI ( yeah...  I know not popular in this form) 

Since I don't have a approved panel mounted WAAS GPS installed.  I only have Gamin GNC 255 and KX155 (no G/S)  But sure beats paying  for $2200 for a CDI   taking up more  room in panel that is limited to begin with.   When I looked into getting an  Aspen or Garmin G500   installed it was $17K plus.  The installation cost seems to be   about have the unit cost. Plus Aspen or Garmin  ( some  Garmin products) won't let me   assist in the installation.     Since the airplane only worth about  mid 30's.  it really hard to justify $23k  avionics install and in about  7 years GPS will be outdated.

So despite people's  disdain  comments about Garmin's G5 not being able to to drive a certified autopilots. The real problem isn't Garmin,  but it is FAA and it bizarre way on how they are determining  what products  are   to be  certifiable. One would think with the G5 and auto pilots  being in experimental market over the  last several years.  There  should be  enough   valid data to answers any questions or concerns of the FAA. If not the the  FAA should be held accountable to US the taxpayer (their indirect employer)  an explain why and give technical reason(s) why it can't be installed in a Certified  aircraft. not some over the wall answer varying between FSDO's across the nation depending on who and when you ask.  While it very  nice to get rid of failure pron vacuum driven gyro's I am glad FAA  was active in doing so.  I scratch my head when  I see  in the G5's STC about being so limited aircraft under 6000 lbs, 6 seats of less.  I would like to understand the technical reason why the 7 person or how  an airplane gross weight  effects  the Garmin G5 that it is excluded.

Now I need to figure where to get vacuum for the step so I can get rid of the vacuum pump.  Boy lit sure looks emptier behind the instrument panel these days with no  more big fat  intake vacuum filter and 3/8" vacuum hose runs taking up  the  room. Save weight to boot.

Shortly after my ADS-B  was installed ( back in January ) the wing lever Turn Coordinator died . I am hoping that the TRIO or TRU-Trac   or Garmin  or ???? gets a STC autopilot approved for our Mooney's.

....

James '67C

 

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, jamesm said:

Shortly after my ADS-B  was installed ( back in January ) the wing lever Turn Coordinator died . I am hoping that the TRIO or TRU-Trac   or Garmin  or ???? gets a STC autopilot approved for our Mooney's.

Garmin will. Especially now that you have the G5's installed that would be the way to go once they have the GFC500 STC for the Mooney.

[smccray]

14 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Garmin will. Especially now that you have the G5's installed that would be the way to go once they have the GFC500 STC for the Mooney.

That assumes Garmin STCs the GFC 500 instead of the GFC 600. The 500 makes sense to me for aircraft under $150k, but garmin STC'd the GFC 600 for the A36. Admittedly I don't have a full understanding of the technical differences, so I may be wrong here, but it appears to me to be a market pricing determination.  A36 owners may pay for a 600- where does Garmin put the M20M and/or the M20R?

From my perspective, the GFC500 is revolutionary in terms of the price point and the capabilities. At $20k, the GFC600 is still a very high priced retrofit that will be very hard to justify for airplanes valued under $150k.  I'm interested at the price point of the GFC500, the 600- not so much. 

[LANCECASPER]

4 minutes ago, smccray said:

That assumes Garmin STCs the GFC 500 instead of the GFC 600. The 500 makes sense to me for aircraft under $150k, but garmin STC'd the GFC 600 for the A36. Admittedly I don't have a full understanding of the technical differences, so I may be wrong here, but it appears to me to be a market pricing determination.  A36 owners may pay for a 600- where does Garmin put the M20M and/or the M20R?

From my perspective, the GFC500 is revolutionary in terms of the price point and the capabilities. At $20k, the GFC600 is still a very high priced retrofit that will be very hard to justify for airplanes valued under $150k.  I'm interested at the price point of the GFC500, the 600- not so much. 

As long as we're speculating, I wouldn't be surprised if they STC'd the GFC600 for long bodies (M, R, S - the TN and Ultras already have the GFC700), and then the GFC500 for K and before. But that's just a guess. It would make sense since the long bodies would benefit from a a Yaw Dampener more, which will be available on the GFC600. Plus it also makes sense based on the value of the airframes - the K's and before probably are going to have a hard time justifying 25% of the airframe's value on an autopilot..

[Marauder]

18 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I wonder what this does to Stec. My local avionics shop thinks it will be the nail in their preverbal coffin.

Probably not a healthy thing for us STEC owners. If they are securing a significant portion of their revenues from GA sales, losing sales of these boxes will probably take them down the Bendix King path, i.e. trying to make up revenues by relying on support.

[smccray]

2 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

As long as we're speculating, I wouldn't be surprised if they STC'd the GFC600 for long bodies (M, R, S - the TN and Ultras already have the GFC700), and then the GFC500 for K and before. But that's just a guess. It would make sense since the long bodies would benefit from a a Yaw Dampener more.

I wouldn't be surprised either- hope we're both wrong. Press release said that a yaw damper will work with the 500 as well as the 600. Biggest difference appears to be compatibility of the flight director with other displays such as the G500/600 and control wheel steering. I assume the servos for the 600 are bigger, or that there is some mechanical reason why a larger airplane would need the bigger servos.

I hope Garmin puts our planes in the 500 category, or perhaps in the both category- ability to install either autopilot depending on desired integrations. Hopefully A36 owners have the option to install the 500 as well.

[Marauder]

17 hours ago, MooneyBob said:

I got some quotes for Aspen 1000 PRO as I got excited about their last promotions. Once the avionic shop quoted me AP EA100 interface ( that I think don't even need as I have Century IIB only with no pitch control) for $ 5400 I got cold feet. The GAD 29B for $ 425 sounds much more reasonable. 

Bob -- I went back to the Aspen site and re-read the AP support. The ACU is required. It appears that an EA 100 can be used but is not required. There may be additional functions that the EA 100 will do that the ACU won't (like a go around button). I think that is what you need to get answered.

[toto]

19 minutes ago, smccray said:

it appears to me to be a market pricing determination 

It does seem like this problem will take care of itself.  Garmin will need to provide value for the money, and if customers see the $11k bump as a shakedown, they won't buy the 600.  The Trigs and Trios of the world will be more than happy to sell digital units to the piston market.