Flaps on touch and go

[Hank]

12 minutes ago, TheTurtle said:

My second though was if people are doing no flap takeoffs regularly and IF people are doing no flap takeoff T&Gs why do we even use flaps to take off normally?  I have a min of 2400' of runway if Im on the small side of the airport.  5500 on the other.  I dont really need flaps.  But I do like getting off the ground as soon as possible because like I said before the few seconds before takeoff always feels sketchy to me.

And speaking of the POH.  Lots of guys including MAPA say knobs all forward until cruise altitude with just some leaning as you climb.  SO I blabbed that to my CFI since I generally go 25/25 at 1000agl and this time was going to climb out full forward.  He reached behind me and pulled out the POH and the climb procedure says 2500RPM (or something like that)  not balls to the wall.  

Secondly, I am "one of those guys" whose Takeoff SOP is no flaps. When I'm loaded heavy, I use flaps  but for the overwhelming majority of my flights, I do not. To make matters worse, I follow my Owners Manual on landing, and on final it is "Flaps--Landing or as desired" so I tweak them to be wherever keeps me on speed and on glideslope; I do the same thing with the throttle, using the ancient "pitch for speed, throttle for altitude" rule.

And how dare you mention the POH (that our planes don't have) as an authority for reducing power after takeoff!    My Owners Manual says something like 2550-2600 RPM, but I was taught during transition training, and later by MAPA, to just leave everything full forward. Just as I was taught during transition training about no flaps takeoffs in my short body. Sure, the turbo long bodies are a different animal, but neither Turtle nor I fly one . . .

It's all part of being Pilot in Command, you get to make the calls. Just be safe while doing it.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So if there is a mile of runway left, what's the harm in taking off again instead of stopping?

I've been doing them in Mooneys for 33 years. I didn't know they were hard or dangerous until I joined Mooneyspace.

Nothing wrong with that. That's why I said . . . .

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

 There's no one right answer though for everyone - do what you are comfortable with.

We all get to make our own choices. If it works for you and makes you happy go for it.

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, 201er said:

You forgot to open cowl flaps. And you're just thinking it through on the ground.

My cowl flaps are fixed. I don't open the cowl flaps because I cannot close them.

I also didn't mention partial throttle while waiting for the turbo to spool up, cause I don't have one of them either. Same for setting rudder trim, etc.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Hank

[201er]

1 minute ago, Hank said:

My cowl flaps are fixed. I don't open the cowl flaps because I cannot close them.

I also didn't mention partial throttle while waiting for the turbo to spool up, cause I don't have one of them either. Same for setting rudder trim, etc.

On a C model? I know some of the long bodies don't have cowl flaps but I c models have adjustable cowl flaps?

[Hank]

Just now, 201er said:

On a C model? I know some of the long bodies don't have cowl flaps but I c models have adjustable cowl flaps?

Varies by year. By 1970, they were fixed. Later models, too. Not sure when the change was made, I'd guess no later than 1969, when electric flaps, electric gear and standard six pack were used on all of them. 

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I've been doing them in Mooneys for 33 years. I didn't know they were hard or dangerous until I joined Mooneyspace.

Bingo. (25 years for me.)

For The Turtle- I use "take off flaps" (2 pumps) for touch and go landing practice.  One reason is so that I have one less thing to do when transitioning from landing to takeoff, the other is that it lands so dang nice with partial flaps.  I would be very reluctant to do them on a 2000' runway.  I'd prefer 4000'. 

I like doing them every now and then because they're fun, different, decent practice for a go around or bounced landing, and I'm not afraid of my airplane.  I like trying to not let the nose wheel touch the ground.

[jaylw314]

For the OP, what did you mean by "squirrely" before takeoff?  Were you talking about just being busy in that phase, or actual directional control?  Did you train in a Cessna?  I notice that pilots moving from bungee-cord steering in Cessna's to rigid nosewheel steering in most other plane's take a while to figure out the need to suddenly kick in rudder when the nosewheel comes off the ground.  The difference is even more pronounced in free-castering nosewheels like RV's and Grumman's (I think), where you don't move your feet at all when you rotate (since the rudder is already doing all the directional control).  If that's the problem, practicing the rotation might help your discomfort.

There is a line of thought that complex aircraft are not safe to do T&G's because there is little time between the takeoff phase and the landing phase.  As such, you end up rushing your landing/GUMPS checklist, and the big consequence in complex aircraft is, of course, forgetting the landing gear.  Of course, T&G's get you more practice quickly.  My CFI said there is no right answer but showed me how.  He left it to me to decide for myself.

I've got about 100 hours and 150 landings in my 201, so I do still do T&G's.  My rationale is that I only spend 6 seconds in the roundout/flare per landing, so in total I only have practiced that phase of flight for 900 seconds, or about 15 minutes.  T&G's allow me to get more landings in early on.  Maybe when I've gotten a few hundred landings under my belt can I be assured I'm good enough I don't have to practice.

I do T&G's on a 3600' runway.  If I land in the first third, there's plenty of room.  Raise flaps for 3 seconds to get to 1/2 flaps (or just land with 1/2 flaps), then full throttle.  When passing 100', retrim, raise gear, then flaps up, fuel pump off and cowl flaps open.  I do NOT retrim until after applying full power, I want to learn the muscle memory of needing to push the nose down on go-around's.  It's heavy, but possible to hold with just one hand.

I make it a point not to turn crosswind until 700' AGL, and not to turn downwind until pattern altitude.  This results in a nice, wide pattern, and I then make it a point to configure for cruise when I turn downwind (cowl flaps closed, decrease throttle and prop, and lean near peak).  Now when I'm abeam the numbers and do my GUMPS check, everything is set as it normally is before the GUMPS check.

Edited June 24, 2017 by jaylw314

[TheTurtle]

Just now, jaylw314 said:

For the OP, what did you mean by "squirrely" before takeoff?  Were you talking about just being busy in that phase, or actual directional control?  Did you train in a Cessna?  I notice that pilots moving from bungee-cord steering in Cessna's to rigid nosewheel steering in most other plane's take a while to figure out the need to suddenly kick in rudder when the nosewheel comes off the ground.  The difference is even more pronounced in free-castering nosewheels like RV's and Grumman's (I think), where you don't move your feet at all when you rotate (since the rudder is already doing all the directional control).  If that's the problem, practicing the rotation might help your discomfort.

 

im not sure what it is exactly.  Maybe poor crosswind control?  I just call it squirrly.  Just doesnt feel stable after it gets over 50mph.  feels like it wants to wander.  Wind pushes it around more than I like.  Just feels much better when the wheels leave the ground.  I feel in control again.  

[Hank]

Just now, TheTurtle said:

im not sure what it is exactly.  Maybe poor crosswind control?  I just call it squirrly.  Just doesnt feel stable after it gets over 50mph.  feels like it wants to wander.  Wind pushes it around more than I like.  Just feels much better when the wheels leave the ground.  I feel in control again.  

That's because it wants to fly! Look up your stall speed with gear down and full flaps . . .  That's why I raise flaps soon after the nose is down and I'm sure I have directional control--it puts more weights on the wheels by reducing lift.

When you take off, what speed do you rotate? My Manual says 65-75 mph, so I generally use 70, but will go faster on the ground if heavy or in gusty winds. 

[TheTurtle]

Just now, Hank said:

That's because it wants to fly! Look up your stall speed with gear down and full flaps . . .  That's why I raise flaps soon after the nose is down and I'm sure I have directional control--it puts more weights on the wheels by reducing lift.

When you take off, what speed do you rotate? My Manual says 65-75 mph, so I generally use 70, but will go faster on the ground if heavy or in gusty winds. 

about 65 or 70 as well.  75 is to fast.  Im starting to pull around 61ish.  I want to get the duck out of fodge asap

[carusoam]

Keep an eye open for other things causing squirlyness...

Aka the eight second ride, when parts of the steering system wear.... 

I have not had the squirlyness as described. I'm thinking it may be something unusual...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

1 minute ago, TheTurtle said:

about 65 or 70 as well.  75 is to fast.  Im starting to pull around 61ish.  I want to get the duck out of fodge asap

This is how my Manual says to do it. Your F will be slightly different, but probably very similar. If your nose is wanderingredients or jittery, have your nose wheel bearings checked out. Don Maxwell has a link on his website called "The 8-Second Ride" that tells how to fix this. 

[midlifeflyer]

Funny. This question just came up on another site, although not about Mooney. 

Aside from the question of whether to do touch & goes in a retract to begin with (I generally don't)...

I don't think of a  touch and go as a flight maneuver. It is a timesaver in which you perform a landing of your choice, reconfigure the airplane during the rollout  for a takeoff of your choice, and perform the takeoff. 

If the takeoff of your choice is a no-flap takeoff, retract the flaps, if you want your takeoff to be a takeoff with x degrees flaps, put in x degrees flaps. If you want to practice a go-around, practice a go-around. If you can't accomplish the reconfiguration  while still rolling down the runway, find a longer runway or don't do a touch and go.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I'm really confused now.  "Don't do touch and goes, they're too dangerous".  

Mean while on the west coast we have an esteemed Mooney instructor who deliberately teaches a bounced landing and recovery.

Clarence

A bounced landing recovery is not a touch and go. It is a bounced landing recovery. Similarly, a  go-round after landing because a simulated animal ran on to the runway is not a touch and go. It's a go-round. 

There is nothing inherently wrong or dangerous about a TnG. Just a history of insurance claims from people who didn't expect to be distracted and accidentally raise the gear while still on the ground. So, it came to be disfavored by many who simply felt the risk, even if small, was not worth the reward of saving a few minutes taxiing back. It's a choice, like many others in aviation. Some take a middle position. It's ok if it's during instruction since a second pilot is there to ensure the gear is not retracted early (although I have to point out I have handled only one inadvertent gear up case, and it was during a TnG on an instructional flight).

i'm going to bet the primary thought on the mind of the esteemed instructor is the same as mine when I do this type of emergency maneuver in a retract. "I'm watching that gear handle and I'll whack you if your hand goes anywhere near it until we have a clear positive rate of climb."

[kpaul]

This question seems to come back around like ROP/LOP.

As for T&G in complex aircraft, Yep I have done them in my Mooney, T-6II, BE-200, C-130 and PC-12. 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, kpaul said:

This question seems to come back around like ROP/LOP.

As for T&G in complex aircraft, Yep I have done them in my Mooney, T-6II, BE-200, C-130 and PC-12. 

Last week I was in Portsmouth NH, a KC135 was doing touch and goes for quite some time, they seemed to have no troubles either.  Perhaps it has more to do with crew competency and training.

Clarence

[Guest]

8 hours ago, 201er said:

You forgot to open cowl flaps. And you're just thinking it through on the ground.

Shouldn't they have been opened prior to landing in anticipation of a possible go around a long with prop forward, mixture rich (as needed based on field elevation) etc?

Clarence

[M20F]

11 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I'm really confused now.  "Don't do touch and goes, they're too dangerous".  

Mean while on the west coast we have an esteemed Mooney instructor who deliberately teaches a bounced landing and recovery.

Clarence

They are ok if you do them 100 LOP....

[mike_elliott]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

Varies by year. By 1970, they were fixed. Later models, too. Not sure when the change was made, I'd guess no later than 1969, when electric flaps, electric gear and standard six pack were used on all of them. 

The 1970 F model I owned had manual flaps, Hank.

[Yetti]

I think the problem here is trying to learn some route thing.   You should configure the plane to land as needed by the conditions.   You should configure the plane to take off as conditions warrant.

 

[Rmag]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Shouldn't they have been opened prior to landing in anticipation of a possible go around a long with prop forward, mixture rich (as needed based on field elevation) etc?

Clarence

They are closed in cruise descent and landing.  Opening them are in the after landing checklist or the go-around check list.  It's not critical to immediately get them on a T&G or a go-around, but you do want to get them.

The go-around check list which I memorize:  "Throttle, flaps, gear, flaps, flaps."  The last flaps being cowl flaps.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Shouldn't they have been opened prior to landing in anticipation of a possible go around a long with prop forward, mixture rich (as needed based on field elevation) etc?

Clarence

Purely a technique thing. "The book" says to have them closed and then re-open after landing or on the go-around. Many others re-open them just before landing. Mechanics can correct me, but it's probably harmless either way. We keep them closed in descent to allow the engine to cool gradually (another hotly disputed thing, pun intended). By the time we are on final, our power levels are low enough, that's no longer an issue and opening them saves a step on a go.  Likewise, it's hardly the most critical item on a go.

I kept them closed for years. My flying club powers-that-be like them to be reopened, so I'm happy to oblige. I tend not to get religious about this stuff.

[Hank]

46 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

The 1970 F model I owned had manual flaps, Hank.

Sorry, I was replying to NYC Mike's question about cowl flaps on C models. Early Cs have movable cowl flaps, later Cs don't.

I have a handful of hours in a 75 F, and it took a few operations to regularly remember the cowl flaps. What I didn't like about his F was the 3-position-only wing flaps; I really like the infinitely adjustable flaps on my C. The F, though, landed much better with full flaps than with partial, while I'm generally in between but closer to Takeoff (I bump the button as required on final).

[kpaul]

20 minutes ago, Hank said:

What I didn't like about his F was the 3-position-only wing flaps; I really like the infinitely adjustable flaps on my C.

Interesting, My 75F are infinitely adjustable.

[kpaul]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Perhaps it has more to do with crew competency and training.

Absolutely, and that is an argument I can live with vs. because it is a complex aircraft.  If one were to say that as a single pilot, with limited touch and go practice they don't feel comfortable then I have no arguments.  But for me with 1000's of T&Gs in multiple complex, high-performance aircraft, I have no issues resetting flaps, trim and increasing the throttle, just saying its a complex aircraft is a copout.