Avionics Upgrade Opinions

[Mscheuer]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 9:23 PM, INA201 said:

After first meeting with a shop I've come up with a few options.  I am quoting with a Garmin dealer for round one.  We are looking at both GTNs(750 is about 5 amu more all in). Also, like some of you mentioned I'm leaning toward JPI 900 now after looking at what all we can remove and he said that only 15 hours labor would be added vs 35-40 if we did it by itself. I'm really impressed with the 900. Seems like the 900 would simplify your engine scan quit a bit and would fit right where the 700 is now.   Looking at GMA 35 remote mounted if getting the 750 or panel mounted GMA 350 with the 650. He said that he sells a lot more PS audio panels but in his opinion these newer model Garmin units are very comparable to the PS and not like the older Garmin stuff. Anyone have experience with either? GTX-345 for ADSB.  I'm going to try and find a used DAC GPSS converter that will go in as well.  I know nothing about GPSS stuff.  Also, pull the old panels and cut out new and powder coat.  Is there anything we should think through for the future when they are cutting out the panel? I know if we go with a G5 etc and a Tru Trak kind of set up it in the future it would be nice to flush mount them but wondering how you plan it that way now? Planning to clean up all of the wiring. I've got plugs and wires all over the place that seem to have no home.  You guys didn't warn me about the "while we are at it," disorder. Thanks again for all the input from you guys! This forum is great.

 

 

My only comment is that

1. Aviation Consumer compared GARMIN's 3D directly against our IntelliAudio and called it "A Better Way", you can read the reprint at www.ps-engineering.com/PMA450A.shtml

2. If you are going to go with a stand alone audio panel, you really should evaluate the user interface between the GMA350c and the PMA450A. Ask your avionics shop how to change music distribution on the 350c, do it nicely, he probably won't know how to you and you don't want him to feel bad.

3. USB-c is starting to be the new standard. It provide 15 watts of charging power. All iPad 4 require USB-c now and more iPads are going to need this type of power in the future

4. You get me for free! Actually, my entire dedicated team is here to assist you, audio control is all we have been doing since 1985. And we aim to keeping striving for excellence.

[INA201]

Put a deposit down on GTN750, JPI 900, GTX 345, and GPSS for the century 2b. Also going with the Garmin remote audio/voice control tied into the 750.  We are going to mount a vertical card and remove the old compass. Thinking of putting a USB port where the compass is now.  We are going to recut a panel for the 6 pack area and the smaller panel where the transponder is. Any other panel work starts to add up it seems.   It'll be a couple of months before we get her in the shop and completed at this point. Please let me know of any suggestions you guys have. I really appreciate everyone's input and opinions on this project it's been a great help and a lot of fun.

Here are a couple of "before," pics.

[Bob_Belville]

Approve your choices! You might consider a light colored panel. It seems to be the current wisdom to provide a contrast to the radios and instruments. 

[Marauder]

A couple of things to consider as you go through this. I would seriously consider installing a new audio panel. The KMA 24 is ancient technology and the newer audio panels are much more capable (3D audio, real com monitoring, bluetooth capability, built in intercom, etc.). The audio panel is the cornerstone of the avionics stack. 

I would also keep in mind your future state (trust me, there will be a future state once the upgrade fever gets into your bloodstream). If you plan on upgrading the second com (like another GTN or perhaps a GNC 255), the form factor may be different and cutting a new center panel should wait. You don't want to pay for two center panel cuts.

You didn't mention yoke switches, but now would be the time to install those. There are a ton of options ranging from com freq flip flops, ident, Stormscope clear and others. Have the installer provide you a complete list of the options. The standard Mooney yokes can handle 3 microswitches but you can get the yoke extender and add more.

As for the color selection. I would have the shop show you the color palette. You may find a complementary color to your interior. If you are planning on doing the interior or repainting the plane, staying with a neutral color would be advisable. One thing you should keep in mind is your center console is black and need to find something that would complement it. I looked over the entire color palette and found staying with a powdercoated black was the most appealing for me. Why? Maybe it is OCD, but looking at Paul and Bob's panels, those black screws would drive me nuts on a lighter colored panel. I think I saw Don Kaye's panel picture and I believe his screws were colored coded. Something a shop would need to be willing to take on. Also talk to the shop about your required placards (will they reuse the black ones or print new ones) and the way they plan on doing the labeling. That is the one disappointment I have with my panel (but I am working on a solution).

Hope this helps.

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Maybe it is OCD, but looking at Paul and Bob's panels, those black screws would drive me nuts on a lighter colored panel. I think I saw Don Kaye's panel picture and I believe his screws were colored coded. Something a shop would need to be willing to take on. Also talk to the shop about your required placards (will they reuse the black ones or print new ones) and the way they plan on doing the labeling. That is the one disappointment I have with my panel (but I am working on a solution).

Hum, I'll offer that swapping out the mounting screws, which it a fair criticism of my panel, will be a lot easier than silk screening your textured black panel. 

Bob. always paying attention and looking for cheap improvements, Belville

[Marauder]

Hum, I'll offer that swapping out the mounting screws, which it a fair criticism of my panel, will be a lot easier than silk screening your textured black panel. 
Bob. always paying attention and looking for cheap improvements, Belville

Do it Bob. It's driving me crazy.

Yeah, I've been down the textured panel labeling path already. Rmags (you know the beautiful 205) stopped over at my airport and I talked to him about the situation. He pointed out a local business that makes labeling for my kind of challenge.

At least there are NO fingerprints on my panel to see. The touchscreen displays are all together a different matter.

Fix those screws, I'm twitching here


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[Bob_Belville]

11 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Do it Bob. It's driving me crazy.

Yeah, I've been down the textured panel labeling path already. Rmags (you know the beautiful 205) stopped over at my airport and I talked to him about the situation. He pointed out a local business that makes labeling for my kind of challenge.

At least there are NO fingerprints on my panel to see. The touchscreen displays are all together a different matter.

Fix those screws, I'm twitching here


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

Consider it done. Shouldn't be more than a few hundred...

[INA201]

My fault, I forgot to say that I'm putting the Garmin remote audio in as well.  I went over on my original budget by doing the 900 but I'm strongly considering a bottom nav/com to replace the old BK units. Seems like the Garmin Nav/com is $3800 or so. I'm guessing I could get 1.2 to 1.5 for the old units. What do y'all think, just eat at and finish off the center?  Would it be a big expense trying to upgrade those radios later on?  New placards will be done as well.  I want to come up with a vinyl or some type of placard to go over the annunciator but not sure how to get that done exactly. 

[Marauder]

My fault, I forgot to say that I'm putting the Garmin remote audio in as well.  I went over on my original budget by doing the 900 but I'm strongly considering a bottom nav/com to replace the old BK units. Seems like the Garmin Nav/com is $3800 or so. I'm guessing I could get 1.2 to 1.5 for the old units. What do y'all think, just eat at and finish off the center?  Would it be a big expense trying to upgrade those radios later on?  New placards will be done as well.  I want to come up with a vinyl or some type of placard to go over the annunciator but not sure how to get that done exactly. 

Having done multiple upgrades (2012, 2013, 2014 & 2017) anything you can do to consolidate upgrades will cost you significantly less than if you did it over multiple upgrades. The wiring is tedious and if you use another shop for any of the subsequent upgrades, they will need more time to understand what the last installer did.

Think of avionics upgrades like surgery. The fewer the times you need to open the patient, the better off you'll be.


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[Oldguy]

35 minutes ago, Marauder said:

At least there are NO fingerprints on my panel to see. The touchscreen displays are all together a different matter.
 

 

My Mooney transition/complex instructor had a habit of touching the screens of the MX20 and GNS430 to make a point. Drove my poor OCD mind crazy! Always spent time after he flew with me cleaning the screens. Probably why I am leaning to the IFD's if I ever replace the center stack components. 

[Bob_Belville]

4 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Hum, I'll offer that swapping out the mounting screws, which it a fair criticism of my panel, will be a lot easier than silk screening your textured black panel. 

Bob. always paying attention and looking for cheap improvements, Belville

So, I asked Robbie Greer about those screws. Here's our exchange. I think they'll stay black.

 Robbie, do you have a source for the instrument mounting machine screws to match the color of my panel? I think you powder coated the ones that mount the panel itself.

 

Bob

From: Robbie Greer Subject: Re: painted flat head machine screws

Nope. They come in black, stainless, or CAD plated.

Typically we sand blast, paint or powder coat the screws that mount the panel (the ones that would almost never be removed) and then we use black screws on the instruments because we know that at some point a mechanic (or us) will have to remove an instrument and when he does the screw heads will get buggered up and black screws are easy to match back.

 

Do you need more of the mounting screws or are you just thinking about replacing the instrument screws? If it's the later may I strongly recommend you don't because you will hate it later on unless you have a bag of replacement screws.

 

Thanks,
Robbie
Twin Lakes Avionics

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

So, I asked Robbie Greer about those screws. Here's our exchange. I think they'll stay black.

 Robbie, do you have a source for the instrument mounting machine screws to match the color of my panel? I think you powder coated the ones that mount the panel itself.

 

Bob

From: Robbie Greer Subject: Re: painted flat head machine screws

Nope. They come in black, stainless, or CAD plated.

Typically we sand blast, paint or powder coat the screws that mount the panel (the ones that would almost never be removed) and then we use black screws on the instruments because we know that at some point a mechanic (or us) will have to remove an instrument and when he does the screw heads will get buggered up and black screws are easy to match back.

 

Do you need more of the mounting screws or are you just thinking about replacing the instrument screws? If it's the later may I strongly recommend you don't because you will hate it later on unless you have a bag of replacement screws.

 

Thanks,
Robbie
Twin Lakes Avionics

Thanks Bob, you've saved me the trouble of the research... 

[Marauder]

So, I asked Robbie Greer about those screws. Here's our exchange. I think they'll stay black.
 Robbie, do you have a source for the instrument mounting machine screws to match the color of my panel? I think you powder coated the ones that mount the panel itself.   Bob From: Robbie Greer Subject: Re: painted flat head machine screws
Nope. They come in black, stainless, or CAD plated. Typically we sand blast, paint or powder coat the screws that mount the panel (the ones that would almost never be removed) and then we use black screws on the instruments because we know that at some point a mechanic (or us) will have to remove an instrument and when he does the screw heads will get buggered up and black screws are easy to match back.   Do you need more of the mounting screws or are you just thinking about replacing the instrument screws? If it's the later may I strongly recommend you don't because you will hate it later on unless you have a bag of replacement screws.   Thanks,
Robbie
Twin Lakes Avionics

I think you need a big fat hangar fairy to sneak in your hangar and identify what each screw type is and have a couple of sets of powder coated versions made up.

So, in the 5 years you have had the panel, how many times have those black screws come out?


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[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I think you need a big fat hangar fairy to sneak in your hangar and identify what each screw type is and have a couple of sets of powder coated versions made up.

So, in the 5 years you have had the panel, how many times have those black screws come out?

 

Hmmm.... can you power coat brass? I'll have to find out.  And if mine is ever done... it will never go back in the shop so those screws will never be touched.

Sending the hangar fairies a note now...

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, Marauder said:

 

I think you need a big fat hangar fairy to sneak in your hangar and identify what each screw type is and have a couple of sets of powder coated versions made up.

So, in the 5 years you have had the panel, how many times have those black screws come out?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

Off the top of my head: I personally removed the EDM and shipped it to JPI. Lynn removed the vacuum IA and sent it off for overhaul. And After Lynn and I installed the CYA 100 using ss screws Robbie noticed and replaced them with black.

I count 10 radios and instruments and about 40 screws, not sure if they're all the same size and length. (When Robbie built my panel he powder coated a few extra screws just in case.)

[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hmmm.... can you power coat brass? I'll have to find out.  And if mine is ever done... it will never go back in the shop so those screws will never be touched.

Sending the hangar fairies a note now...

"Powder Coating can be used on any object that is made from metal including: aluminum, steel, brass, copper, bronze, titanium, magnesium, and much more! But, now powder coating is an increasingly popular finish for many of our every day products because it is solvent free."

[drapo]

12 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Approve your choices! You might consider a light colored panel. It seems to be the current wisdom to provide a contrast to the radios and instruments. 

I also prefer a "Lighter shade of pale"...

[INA201]

Does anyone know how the 7 antennae Works exactly? The 430 in the plane has limited range compared to my king radio beneath it and I wanted to make sure it's not the antenna. My front 7 antennae has what appears to be a repaired crack or break in it.  My guess is that piece would have flown off if it was an airborne situation.  I've got the upgrade slated for 2 weeks out and wanted to have everything in order.  Does the functioning antennae wiring extend to the back of these or just straight up?  Thanks

[DonMuncy]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 3:25 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Hmmm.... can you power coat brass? I'll have to find out.  And if mine is ever done... it will never go back in the shop so those screws will never be touched.

Sending the hangar fairies a note now...

Harbor Freight has some powder coating stuff. I have never looked into whether it is something a competent hangar elf could take on.

[carusoam]

Ina,

there is something just wrong about the installation of that ’7’.... The funky silicone bead around the bottom doesn't instill confidence that the antenna is properly attached to a ground plane...

A radio installer can probably test the strength of the system and give some insight on how to fix...

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

11 hours ago, INA201 said:

Does anyone know how the 7 antennae Works exactly? The 430 in the plane has limited range compared to my king radio beneath it and I wanted to make sure it's not the antenna. My front 7 antennae has what appears to be a repaired crack or break in it.  My guess is that piece would have flown off if it was an airborne situation.  I've got the upgrade slated for 2 weeks out and wanted to have everything in order.  Does the functioning antennae wiring extend to the back of these or just straight up?  Thanks

If the radiator element is broken it will ruin the antenna.  People often break these putting aircraft covers on. The correct replacement is Comant ci-196.  About 450$!   That forward antenna is fun to change, the nuts are buried under a lot of things like the headliner. 

I just did a majornaviojics upgrade and a PS engineering PMA8000bt for 1200$ was hard to beat. And you keep the 4 data Fields on the GTn750. I did spend on the gtx345r remote transponder.   Also for a com2 consider a sl30.  3k and it's small enough to put in the lh radio stack. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by jetdriven

[INA201]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

If the radiator element is broken it will ruin the antenna.  People often break these putting aircraft covers on. The correct replacement is Comant ci-196.  About 450$!   That forward antenna is fun to change, the nuts are buried under a lot of things like the headliner. 

I just did a majornaviojics upgrade and a PS engineering PMA8000bt for 1200$ was hard to beat. And you keep the 4 data Fields on the GTn750. I did spend on the gtx345r remote transponder.   Also for a com2 consider a sl30.  3k and it's small enough to put in the lh radio stack. 

I like your set up. How do you know if the radiator is busted?  How did you do your annunciator too? My annunciaor has some out of date components to it currently.

[carusoam]

+1 for the @jetdriven re-purposed flushmounted color screen...

Also, for the OP...

Expect that the whole 7 shape is there for a purpose.  It is hiding the bent antenna wire in all that shape.  If the plastic part is really broken, it probably broke the wire antenna hiding inside.  If the antenna has been accidently shortened that is probably going to affect the strength of the radio that is attached to it.

If at all possible can you swap the com1 and com2 wires between the two antennas? See if the problem follows the antenna?

Unfortunately, the troubleshooting is going to eat up some capital that may be better placed on swapping out the antenna...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[jetdriven]

I did add one from a later model. We had so many shotgun single piece lights and switches, I consolidated them all to one place. 

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, INA201 said:

I like your set up. How do you know if the radiator is busted?  How did you do your annunciator too? My annunciaor has some out of date components to it currently.

Usually they will receive ok but not transmit very far. But to be honest, the labor involved to troubleshoot the antenna is similar to to the cost  of replacing it.