Trim Before Gear Retraction?

[MBDiagMan]

I went to an open house last week where I hangar my 140.  A medical air transport company, opened a base at the Hugo, Ok airport.  They had the open house to engage with the community and get to know the pilots in the area.  The company was founded by a doctor who I met and got to know a little bit.  He showed me his personal plane, a beautiful turbine engined Malibu.  He combined his medical profession with his love of aviation.  It is a great group of people and aircraft.  It is great having them around.

In the course of visiting with the pilots, one of them talked about his time years ago as a young flight instructor.  He said the FBO where he worked had a Mooney C model that he did complex training in.  He said that he learned to trim on take off before retracting the gear.  He said he did this to eliminate the waggle on gear retraction.  I didn't think to ask what speed he trimmed for.

As you can see, I can't ask a simple question quickly, but has anyone done this or do any of you do this on a regular basis?

[carusoam]

Trim before departure.

Set it and forget it...

The gear comes up so fast, you run out of hands to do both trim and gear retraction...

Speed changes are going to require trimming.

Change of flaps are going to require trimming.

Setting climb angle/speed requires trimming.

Sounds like the conversation wasn't as detailed as it would need to be to describe what the pilot was actually doing...

Did he have an electric trim?

hard to get so much technical detail out of a casual conversation, when the event is essentially a meet and greet regarding the new business...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 24, 2017 by carusoam

[Andy95W]

Sounds kinda goofy to me.  I'm with Anthony, I think he is probably mis-remembering.  Trimming with flap extension or retraction, yes.  

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks guys!  I have gotten pretty comfortable with just rotating, ensuring positive rate of climb and yanking up the gear.  I know that I waggle a little while yanking the gear, but it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

[Skates97]

43 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks guys!  I have gotten pretty comfortable with just rotating, ensuring positive rate of climb and yanking up the gear.  I know that I waggle a little while yanking the gear, but it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

You have the manual Johnson bar, correct? Most of that will go away as you get more and more time in the plane. Eventually it will be very smooth. The other part of it is that the manual gear goes up fast and you just move on to the next task. For me, it is positive rate of climb, gear up, flip the flap lever up so they start coming up, boost off, and then trim as necessary for whatever rate of climb/speed I am looking for.

[Hank]

7 hours ago, Skates97 said:

You have the manual Johnson bar, correct? Most of that will go away as you get more and more time in the plane. Eventually it will be very smooth. The other part of it is that the manual gear goes up fast and you just move on to the next task. For me, it is positive rate of climb, gear up, flip the flap lever up so they start coming up, boost off, and then trim as necessary for whatever rate of climb/speed I am looking for.

That's what I do for my electric C, except I only use flaps when I'm loaded heavy--then I climb at Vx to clear obstacles, retract flaps and accelerate to Vy or Vy + 10.

[Ned Gravel]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

That's what I do for my electric C, except I only use flaps when I'm loaded heavy--then I climb at Vx to clear obstacles, retract flaps and accelerate to Vy or Vy + 10.

For my manual E model, I do the same as Hank.  Flaps and associated trim set before takeoff, depending on the planned departure configuration.

On rotation, check wings are clear, fuel caps are still there, flaps are OK, then gear before the end of the runway. All below 100 mph.  Climb at Vx.  Flaps up at 1000'.  Climb at Vy or Vy + 10.  Trim after gear up.  Trim after flaps up.  Trim after transition to Vy.

[Aron Peterson]

For my manual E model, I do the same as Hank.  Flaps and associated trim set before takeoff, depending on the planned departure configuration.
On rotation, check wings are clear, fuel caps are still there, flaps are OK, then gear before the end of the runway. All below 100 mph.  Climb at Vx.  Flaps up at 1000'.  Climb at Vy or Vy + 10.  Trim after gear up.  Trim after flaps up.  Trim after transition to Vy.

Does anybody apply the brakes prior to gear retraction?


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[midlifeflyer]

20 minutes ago, Aron Peterson said:

Does anybody apply the brakes prior to gear retraction?


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Un-oh. Now you've done it.

[Bartman]

3 hours ago, Aron Peterson said:

Does anybody apply the brakes prior to gear retraction?


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Yes

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, Aron Peterson said:

Does anybody apply the brakes prior to gear retraction?

No

With a manual gear Mooney, you're best off getting the gear in the wells ASAP on positive rate of climb. The tires shouldn't be scuffing or touching anything in the wells if they're sized correctly. You can extend the gear just as fast if you need to get back on the ground. You'll climb much faster which equals safety. You'll also reduce engine heating before it gets started... and besides all the safety benefits, it looks cooler as well 

[steingar]

I trim mine for an 80 mph climb out, so minimizes gear forces.  Being a dwarf has its disadvantages.  After sucking up the flaps the aircraft gets a new trim setting for a 100-120 mph climb out.

[Hank]

My gear is electric, and I don't waste climb flying above the runway with the gear hanging out. Positive rate, gear up; they usually thump home as I pass the treetops. Then establish desired climb speed, set trim and go up.

[Stetson20]

I'm still in that awkward stage where I can't get the Johnson bar to lock down on the floor on the first attempt. I get the feeling that my arm is about 3 inches too short for the design 

[gsxrpilot]

32 minutes ago, Stetson20 said:

I'm still in that awkward stage where I can't get the Johnson bar to lock down on the floor on the first attempt. I get the feeling that my arm is about 3 inches too short for the design 

There is a secret move that can be done with the yoke to automate that last 3 inches. 

[carusoam]

1) half of it is knowledge of the speed it works best at.  Vr, is too soon. Vx, is good.  Vy, is more of a challenge.  Cruise climb, you will need Arnold arms and the seat belt firm/tight against your hips. If going too fast to get the gear up, raise the nose. Pulling the power is poor technique.

2) the other half is knowledge and practice of the procedure. Release the button, lower the release handle, and get your hand on the top side of the bar.

3) the third half is the strength required to do this maneuver.  There isn't much strength available to be applied to the bar under the most ideal situations.  Ideally (for this calculation) the pilot is about 170#...

• Legs are about 80 of those pounds and can't really be used to press this bar.
• That leaves about 90#, where half needs to stay on the seat to stabilize the left arm for flying the plane...
• This leaves about 45#, to do the work of raising the gear.
• If you don't get the timing right, the speed will be rising and the force requirement goes higher with it...
• A subtle hint that you are going too fast for you, your butt comes off the seat and you pull back on the yoke.

4) you know you have it right, when you are holding the nose, transitioning through Vx on the way toward Vy.  The bar goes back smoothly into its lock. At 1,000' AGL, fuel pump and flaps are next.... if you cognitively goof up a step, the pump gets forgotten and flaps are still down... 

5) Practice your multi-tasking, memory, and cognitive skills... the window of smooth operation opens quickly then slams shut equally quickly. Don't fear raising the nose to make it easy on yourself...

6) 200 raging horses really want to accelerate the light aluminum airframe...

PP ideas only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 26, 2017 by carusoam

[Stetson20]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

There is a secret move that can be done with the yoke to automate that last 3 inches. 

A slight unload? I'm trying to do that, albeit still awkwardly.

[jan.eric.madsen]

There is a secret move that can be done with the yoke to automate that last 3 inches. 

Aw yes, The Mooney Dip!


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[carusoam]

Welcome out into the posting open, Jan!

Thanks for reminding me.  The maneuver actually has a name.  

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 27, 2017 by carusoam

[jan.eric.madsen]

Welcome out into the posting open, Jan!
Thanks for reminding me.  The maneuver actually has a name.  
Best regards,
-a-

Its just me, madjano, but for some reason on a different account on this iPad.


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[SantosDumont]

I usually set my trim just below the takeoff mark on my F.  Otherwise as soon as I perform the manual gear retract maneuver and put the gear away I feel like I'm too nose high and have to trim from 80 to 105 for climb.

[HRM]

On 5/25/2017 at 6:56 AM, Aron Peterson said:

Does anybody apply the brakes prior to gear retraction?

Only the Boy Scouts (On my honor, I will do my best. To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Flight Manual).

[HRM]

On 5/25/2017 at 7:37 PM, gsxrpilot said:

There is a secret move that can be done with the yoke to automate that last 3 inches.

Mooney nod, sometimes more formally called the "Nod to Al Mooney," who designed and patented the gear and first executed the nod.

[steingar]

On 5/25/2017 at 7:01 PM, Stetson20 said:

I'm still in that awkward stage where I can't get the Johnson bar to lock down on the floor on the first attempt. I get the feeling that my arm is about 3 inches too short for the design 

You can't be much shorter than I.  Just keep at it.  I have to admit, I do need a look down on the floor to make certain mine is locked.  But it only takes a moment and is done.  just keep at it, you'll get there.

[MBDiagMan]

On May 25, 2017 at 6:01 PM, Stetson20 said:

I'm still in that awkward stage where I can't get the Johnson bar to lock down on the floor on the first attempt. I get the feeling that my arm is about 3 inches too short for the design 

I think my take off/landing count is about 60 or so and I feel very confident with the gear retraction/extension process now.  The bar got to a point of being sticky in the upper socket.  Once my Mooney mechanic told me to twist the bar if necessary to get it out of the socket, I made it to the full confidence level.

This is not to say that I no longer have the wag.  Today, I flew in the hot Texas afternoon thermals.  Sandy and I took off from Sulphur Springs KSLR and I pulled up the gear as soon as I saw some vertical air speed, exhibiting some wag.  Not long after that, the right wing went down at least 45 degrees.  As I pulled on the ailerons, about a second later the wing jerked just a little, but stayed there for another second or two.  I was at pretty low altitude, but I didn't seem to appreciably lose any altitude.  I didn't freak out or anything, but just stayed with it.  Since I didn't seem worried, Sandy didn't get worried.

I have experienced the wing drop as I described three times in the last few years.  Twice in my 140 and today in the Mooney.  All three times it was the right wing that dipped and all three times it was at low altitude just after take off.  I am glad that today, the gear was already up and the climb out was already mostly established, with the wag already finished.