Landing Gear Down

[flyboy0681]

Just now, gsengle said:

If you know distractions are the real cause of gear ups you can also get extra alert any time your routine is broken.
 

 

We have a SAM GPSS installed and it's programmed to give an aural warning at about 1,300 feet "Check GUMPS". So far it's never reminded me to put it down.

[midlifeflyer]

11 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

All of these suggestions are great, until the one time that you are distracted for some reason. 

Maybe. Maybe not. How's this for reason to be distracted? 

I was in a retract when I had a loss of power in the clouds. Over the Rockies. With ATC's help made it to a diversionary airport and broke out of the clouds. Power came back but I needed to land NOW. My wife was terrified, practically in shock and I was not in a great emotional state myself with the adrenaline pouring through me. My memory is not all that clear, but as far as I can recall, that gear went down at the same point in the sequence it always does.

It's one of the reasons I preach the power of habit.

[flyboy0681]

18 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Maybe. Maybe not. How's this for reason to be distracted? 

 

You call that a distraction?

[Simon]

54 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Maybe. Maybe not. How's this for reason to be distracted? 

I was in a retract when I had a loss of power in the clouds. Over the Rockies. With ATC's help made it to a diversionary airport and broke out of the clouds. Power came back but I needed to land NOW. My wife was terrified, practically in shock and I was not in a great emotional state myself with the adrenaline pouring through me. My memory is not all that clear, but as far as I can recall, that gear went down at the same point in the sequence it always does.

It's one of the reasons I preach the power of habit.

I'd be happy to land gear up in a situation like this.  Just being on the ground - nothing else matters.

[RobertGary1]

I remember when I had my engine failure as I saw the airport come into sight I was immediately worried I'd forget the gear. I wasn't going to lower it then (waited until I was about 50 feet and made the runway) but I immediately thought "this is where guys forget the gear". Otherwise I was someone calm. We practice engine losses all the time so it was almost more "finally get to try one for real"  

 

-Robert 

[N6758N]

Other than the normal checklist items for putting the gear down, one of my instructors taught me whenever you turn final (or have the numbers in sight) call out verbally, "Numbers in sight, gear down and locked" as you check for 'three greens'. I have never had to rely on it to remember but it is a nice backup and one last final check before you pull power and flare...

[RobertGary1]

The Mooney is also unique in that it's one of the few planes in which you can see the gear indicator light while coming over the numbers looking out the glareshield. Most planes it's down on the panel. So I make a habit of noticing it out of the corner of my eye over the numbers as a final check. 

But im not stupid enough to say I'll never forget  always vigilant 

-Robert

[carusoam]

Memory items that are standing out...

1) Hand stays on the gear switch until the gear is verified it went down.

- gear thump is one hint.

- green light on the panel is another.

- green indicator on the floor is a third.

- manual gear is easier, since the lever goes up at exactly the same time the gear is down.  

 

2) PIC doesn't rely on anyone else for error checking. Even when the copilot is a CFII.

 

3) multiple times around the pattern can mix a previous memory of putting the gear down recently with the latest trip around the pattern.

- recent memories can be funny this way.

- age, amount of sleep, and tiredness have a way of interrupting recent memories.

 

4) coming in with a non-standard routine like slightly high and fast covers over the gear not being down... Some 'acceptable' logic for additional braking can get used.  

- slightly high and fast with gear stowed..

- brain recognizes the high and fast as the reason.

- takes out throttle, raises nose. 

- uses a slip, thinking the high and fast has caused the issue.

- plane slows to an acceptable speed and altitude for continuing to the landing.

 

5) rationalization.

- the buzzing noise gets ignored.

- I'm busy landing the plane, I'll pay attention to the cause of that buzz in a minute...?

- that's the buzz of some other warning, I can ignore it...?

- I'm so busy, I don't even recognize the buzzing noise...

- it would be nice if the stall horn and the gear horn got voices. Red (or Alan) Foxx in my back seat...  'Hey, put the gear down, dummy'

 

6) check that the gear horn is actually working...

- older Mooneys use a combination of gear up and throttle out, horn comes on. 

- newer Mooneys use a combination of gear up and flaps down all the way..?

 

7) The green light on the panel can get dimmed automatically if you are using nav lights during the day.  The dimmed light may be hard to see while looking at the runway.

 

How the brain prioritizes decision making must be an interesting science.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by carusoam

[RobertGary1]

53 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

2) PIC doesn't rely on anyone else for error checking. Even when the copilot is a CFII.

We're usually trying to come up with ways to distract you to try to forget. I'll pull the gear breaker and then put my watch on the opposite arm. That really irritates me so hopefully it will ensure I don't forget myself I pulled the gear breaker. Never pull the horn breaker of course. I do the same to remember to close a VFR flight plan.

 

-Robert

 

[jaylw314]

I'm a low time pilot and had no retractable time before I chose to by an M20J, transitioning from a Cherokee 140.  I had my instructor do my complex training in the new plane for my first flights.

Transitioning to a Mooney is not a huge issue, even for a low-time pilot.  Just make a point of doing all the checklists, there aren't more than in a Cessna 172.  There's a lot to learn about the details, but the basics are easy:

Get your speed on final right
Don't forget the landing gear
Don't hurt yourself climbing out of the door

[Hank]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Memory items that are standing out...

1) Hand stays on the gear switch until the gear is verified it went down.

- gear thump is one hint.

- green light on the panel is another.

- green indicator on the floor is a third.

 

4) coming in with a non-standard routine like slightly high and fast covers over the gear not being down... Some 'acceptable' logic for additional braking can get used.  

- slightly high and fast with gear stowed..

- brain recognizes the high and fast as the reason.

- takes out throttle, raises nose. 

- uses a slip, thinking the high and fast has caused the issue.

- plane slows to an acceptable speed and altitude for continuing to the landing.

 

Not in my own limited experience, it doesnt! No gear means no drag, I could hold glideslope fairly well but still trended high, an speed control was not there. Whenever I reigned in the speed, I went way high . . . But I was still a ways out on approach, not in the pattern, it could be briefly doable there.

[bonal]

Getting the Mooney C down to gear speed is a very conscious effort for me and as I am fast and getting close to my destination I find my 120mph gear speed to be a great way to put me into a gear down state. Setting up for approach and pattern I find my gear speed is the perfect tool for not forgetting my gear. 120mph means gear down. Then with each phase of pattern to landing I repeat my Gumps. 

[zulu168]

22 hours ago, carusoam said:

First year of insurance is always about 1AMU more expensive than year two.

Depending on how your brain works remembering the gear is pretty easy.

There is one problem with that...

Do a search on the word 'distraction', here on MS.

This is the word they use to describe how the brain can malfunction and allow the wrong switch to operated, or the brain to remember putting the gear down when it was actually put down 15 minutes earlier during the last landing...

I invite you to understand how the brain works.  It is a great device.  Put the word distraction and gear up in the search box above.  See what falls out.

There used to be a time when people would say, that doesn't happen to me...  we have learned a lot about how the brain works and some things about us that make the brain operate under less than standard conditions.

being ill, tired, hungry, sleepy, in a rush, have something important like where you are going to visit (a sick, dying, or dead person)

There are a lot of things that can fill the brain up.  The checklist is the one thing that when used, doesn't fail.

I was young once, I used to memorize my check lists. I could draw out the entire VFR cloud clearance chart and airspace chart.

I am happy to use my checklists. I won't land without seeing the green gear down light in line with the runway ahead.

 

Wait til your memory gets aged.  See how many strategies you use to support the memory challenges.  

Best regards,

-a-

Landing Gears down seems like a no brainer for me on final. Knowing myself pretty well I don't think I would forget this checklist,  Thanks for all the responds. 

[Rmag]

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

6) check that the gear horn is actually working...

- older Mooneys use a combination of gear up and throttle out, horn comes on. 

- newer Mooneys use a combination of gear up and flaps down all the way..?

 

The M20J is an airspeed switch goes on when gear switch is up below 60 knots  

The only time I have heard it was during practicing stalls, or during a ground gear swing on jacks. It's loud as s#%t.  No way you can ignore it.  You can hear it in this video quite prominently. 

 

[kortopates]

29 minutes ago, Rmag said:

The M20J is an airspeed switch goes on when gear switch is up below 60 knots  

The only time I have heard it was during practicing stalls, or during a ground gear swing on jacks. It's loud as s#%t.  No way you can ignore it.  You can hear it in this video quite prominently. 

 

I believe you miss understand the Air Speed Safety switch. It has nothing to do with sounding the Gear Warning horn. The Gear Warning horn is set off by a throttle switch, when MAP drops to specifed low value and the gear is still up. This switch is located on the throttle control cable directly behind the instrument panel on the vintage models and at the engine end on the modern Mooneys. The pulsating gear horn, triggered by the throttle switch, is what you hear in your video.

The Airspeed Safety Switch is a ground safety device. Its to keep the gear from being retracted while still on the  ground just as it says. It does not sound a horn, but illuminates a red Safety Bypass light depending on the model. Pressing the red illuminated light allows you to bypass an In Op Air Safety Switch. 

Two different safety mechanism, one to prevent landing with the gear up, one to prevent raising the gear on the ground.

[kortopates]

Just one short comment on the thread in its entirety, I see a lot of really good post from the very experienced pilots saying how important it is to have ingrained patterns for dropping the gear at the same pre-determined points, checking for gear down multiple times, checking what Mooney tells us is the Primary gear down indication - the flow board indication- at least by short final are all very important IMO. These habits stem from realizing we are only a distraction away from altering our normal routine and need to have multilple safe guards as additional checks to prevent a gear up.

Those that think they can rely on the checklist alone and things like the airplane being too fast on final or even the gear warning horn to save them obviously don't believe it can happen to them. But anyone that has has been following the FAA incident and accident stats knows we see multiple gears up every week across the country; often more than one Mooney doing it in a week and we're only something like 3% of the GA fleet. So the accident record really disagrees and shows us that very smart people do this all the time. Smart people make mistakes all the time, primarily because they became distracted at the critical moment and had no backup safeguard to catch it. Its not that hard to pull the power further back to slow down a little hot, or miss the gear horn when other stuff is going on that distracted you from completing the checklist. How else do you explain the hundred plus gears ups a year. (I am guessing a ball park #). These are all smart people. But we're all only human. Adopt a pattern of multiple checks.

I also use a P2 Audio Advisory device that says "Check gear". So much of the fleet these days with an insured value below 70K is just  going to get totaled after a gear up.  

[carusoam]

Looks like Rmag copied pages from the MM. an excellent resource for the plane it applies to.

1) it says the airspeed switch with gear up will cause the horn to sound.

2) in a note at the bottom of the page it also says the airspeed switch is designed to be accurate, as air speed is increasing. It's primary function is to keep the gear from being raised while in contact with the ground.

3) 55-65kias is the activating range for the switch. What is the approach speed for the plane? 90 - 70kias? (Using a range of MAPA numbers) this would put the gear warning approximately at the time when expecting to hear a stall warning. Expecting one and getting the other....?

4) I am perplexed by what would actually cause a gear warning sound in each Mooney. 

5) The M20C uses the gear up position switch/light and the adjustable throttle position switch. Confirmation of this comes from the wiring diagram in the POH.

6) one thing for sure... the volume of the various horns is much louder on the ground without head phones on. I demonstrated the stall warning sound for my new flight instructor earlier this week during the pre-flight.  It's not very alarming.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 22, 2017 by carusoam

[Mooneymite]

10 hours ago, kortopates said:

So the accident record really disagrees and shows us that very smart people do this all the time. Smart people make mistakes all the time...

When was the last time you heard of an airline landing gear up?  It doesn't  happen very often.  Why?

EGPWS.

Technology is the solution.

[midlifeflyer]

30 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

When was the last time you heard of an airline landing gear up?  It doesn't  happen very often.  Why?

EGPWS.

Technology is the solution.

Regulatory SOPS, required checklist use, and multiple cross checks, often involving  a two-pilot crew who are trained in FAA approved training programs,  require more currency and undergo rigorous required flight checks more often than we do, and whose day to day compliance with procedures is a job requirement might have a little to do with it too.

I wasn't aware EGPWS was dependent on the position of the gear but even if it is, technology is just a tool. It's not the solution unless it flies the airplane and we become passengers.

 

[RobertGary1]

The space shuttle has never had a gear up either. Gear is automatic.

-Robert

[Raptor05121]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

The space shuttle has never had a gear up either. Gear is automatic.

-Robert

 

Piper tried that, and people are now paying that to get rid of it

[kortopates]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Looks like Rmag copied pages from the MM. an excellent resource for the plane it applies to.

1) it says the airspeed switch with gear up will cause the horn to sound.

2) in a note at the bottom of the page it also says the airspeed switch is designed to be accurate, as air speed is increasing. It's primary function is to keep the gear from being raised while in contact with the ground.

3) 55-65kias is the activating range for the switch. What is the approach speed for the plane? 90 - 70kias? (Using a range of MAPA numbers) this would put the gear warning approximately at the time when expecting to hear a stall warning. Expecting one and getting the other....?

4) I am perplexed by what would actually cause a gear warning sound in each Mooney. 

5) The M20C uses the gear up position switch/light and the adjustable throttle position switch. Confirmation of this comes from the wiring diagram in the POH.

6) one thing for sure... the volume of the various horns is much louder on the ground without head phones on. I demonstrated the stall warning sound for my new flight instructor earlier this week during the pre-flight.  It's not very alarming.

Best regards,

-a-

Yes, and I should have allowed for that rather than being dismissive saying it has nothing to do with the stall horn sounding. Its a distraction to the horn going off in flight discussion because the airspeed switch ONLY activates the horn on the GROUND when the airspeed is below its threshold speed 60 kts. Vr or rotate speed to liftoff on the J is 62 kts depending on which POH (62 for '81). Secondly, your second bullet point is very important in that the air speed switch is designed to operate only with  increasing airspeed. It will not set off the alarm in flight if you slow below 60 kts such as doing stalls. The only time a normally operating airspeed switch will set off the horn is on jacks or you really do flip the switch on the ground. In flight the airspeed switch has nothing to do with the horn, it is does not trigger the horn when getting slow. The throttle micro switch triggers the horn when MAP has been reduced below its threshold value with the gear switch still up. Two different systems...

Edited April 22, 2017 by kortopates

[Mooneymite]

8 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I wasn't aware EGPWS was dependent on the position of the gear but even if it is, technology is just a tool. It's not the solution unless it flies the airplane and we become passengers.

Thousands and thousands of landings day in, day out and you don't  think there will be break downs in SOPs, crew discipline, and training?

I assure you fatigued crews (given enough opportunities) are capable of making every mistake known to aviation.....but still there are virtually no gear ups.

EGPWS.

Technology is the answer.

[midlifeflyer]

23 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Thousands and thousands of landings day in, day out and you don't  think there will be break downs in SOPs, crew discipline, and training?

I assure you fatigued crews (given enough opportunities) are capable of making every mistake known to aviation.....but still there are virtually no gear ups.

EGPWS.

Technology is the answer.

There are no perfect answers. Thinking technology is, is just another form of "children of the magenta."

[chrisk]

Here is my favorite example. They land with the warning horn going off.   All it takes is a distraction. It can happen to any of us.   Paranoia and a multi check habit is probably the best protection.