Seat rollers.

[MooneyMitch]

Possibly I've missed past threads and discussions on such, but I'm requiring 4 new seat rollers for my 1963 M20D.  I'm assuming (uh oh!) the same vintage C model rollers will suffice.   

Thank you in advance for your assistance and advice.

[RLCarter]

LASAR?

[carusoam]

Seat rails haven't changed very much, seat bottoms have not changed very much.

But Lasar always has better answers than my guesses.

The little nylon wheels can't cost very much, can they??? 

1960's nylon wasn't as good as nylon is today.

My C struggled with broken wheels for years... I didn't know they were there.

If you get new rollers they should last for the rest of your life.

How is that for positive polymer thinking?

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 17, 2017 by carusoam

[jetdriven]

Lasar sells Delrin seat rollers. About 50$. Better than the phenolic originals. 

[MooneyMitch]

THE REST OF MY LIFE?   Hmmm...........wonder what that will turn out be?    When I was vacillating several years ago, whether to buy my former Ovation, a friend of mine viciously [joke] reminded me that I was "in the 4th quarter".  Yikes!  I bought the Ovation and am thrilled I did.  This new little Mini-Mooney will more than likely out last me [and with new seat rollers too]!  

Interestingly enough, the current rollers appear to be manufactured from a bakelight [spell?] material.  One set is in fine condition, while the other set is very worn, yet still functional. 

Thank you for the input.

[KSMooniac]

LASAR replacements are great.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

[jetdriven]

Phenolic 

[MooneyMitch]

Fin All Lick.    That's what I meant to say ! 

[Yetti]

When the seats were out... I rotated the front to the rear and I believe the rear may receive more abuse.   Figure they should go for another 30 years.

[RLCarter]

hmmmm? when I had my seats out, I removed the rollers for cleaning & inspection and they were metal, not sure of the alloy but were gold in color and weighed a lot for there size. 

[MB65E]

Lasar! Overhauled mine last year. Third best improvement to the airplane.

1.engine

2. G530

3. seat rollers!!

-Matt

[Yetti]

Correct size Derlin rod.  Lathe... done in a couple of minutes.   Or without a lathe.  Drill bolt hole insert into drill and use a round file to shape...

[MooneyMitch]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Correct size Derlin rod.  Lathe... done in a couple of minutes.   Or without a lathe.  Drill bolt hole insert into drill and use a round file to shape...

I'm liking this! 

[carusoam]

By looking at the wear on those wheels, it is clear that just about any material of a similar shape and size with the right hole drilled in the center can work...

-------

Remaining good wheels were on the pilot side. Missing wheels were on the copilot side for some reason.  The copilot seat kind of still worked because the bolt still acted sort of like the wheel.

Cool polymer knowledge...

Phenolic resin is a thermoset polymer.  After the chemical reaction is complete, it doesn't melt and form into shapes.  Thermoplastics are the things we usually call plastics.

Bakelite is a trade name for this resin. Last owned by Union Carbide in central Jersey

it's density is pretty high. It can probably withstand some pretty good temps.  It used to be used for pot and pan handles back before the 90s or so.  Brown is probably its natural color, easy to color black.

phenolic sheet is what used to cover kitchen counters.  Phenolic resin soaked brown kraft paper with a fancy colored paper top layer.

 

I should have known better...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite

Their brick smoke stack still exists here in NJ with the name Bakelite running down the side of it in bricks...

Now I have to remember to go see if it still exists... Union Carbide was a huge plastics company back in the day.

best regards,

-a-

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by carusoam

[Yetti]

I was talking to a guy with a production machine shop out in the country.   He was saying how cool Amazon was because his stuff could be ordered on Amazon and show up 2 days later.  Then he was talking about having to go steal all the carbide inserts from the other tools to make a run.

 

here you go have fun

https://www.amazon.com/Plastics-Delrin-Raw-Materials/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A16414291%2Cp_4%3ADelrin

 

Oh and I thought bakelite was the hard ceramic in electronic devices...  Mis spent youth.

[rbridges]

20 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Lasar sells Delrin seat rollers. About 50$. Better than the phenolic originals. 

It amazes me what people on this forum know.

[MooneyMitch]

"Oh and I thought bakelite was the hard ceramic in electronic devices...  Mis spent youth."

Yep, that's what we called it back in the day, having worked in that industry.  

Now I'm going to measure the diameter of these little roller critters!  Vewy vewy intewesting I say. 

[carusoam]

Selecting different materials could isolate the chair from vibration in an interesting, but hard to measure way.

If you have ever selected skateboard or roller blade wheels...

Softer polymers conduct less vibration, but have higher rates of wear.

Harder polymers conduct a lot of vibration, but have Better resistance to wear.

Something to consider...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 18, 2017 by carusoam

[MooneyMitch]

I'll hit them with a hammer and bounce them on concrete and see which ones I like !

[cliffy]

Skates have no load until skated with so the load is distributed all around as it rolls lessening the chance of taking a set. Seat rollers move only occasionally and then sit stationary fully loaded taking a set. Softer roller probably wouldn't work. Nice idea though.

[MooneyMitch]

14 hours ago, Yetti said:

When the seats were out... I rotated the front to the rear and I believe the rear may receive more abuse.   Figure they should go for another 30 years.

Hmmmm..........this may be an option too!  I'll investigate.   Thanks for all the fun and interesting input everyone. 

[carusoam]

Mitch,

drop them off a table, evenly, see which ones bounce the highest or scatter furthest vs. give a dull thud and minimal bounce...

Measuring hardness of polymers is pretty interesting...  Essentially, pushing a point into the surface and measuring force required to go a set distance...

For how little travel these wheels actually get.  In the photo, The worn Bakelite ones are still pretty round...

When buying the skateboard wheels they typically offer up the hardness detail in the spec list.

To avoid getting the setting effect of marauders girls sitting on the chair.  The polymer guys might offer up a cross-linked polymer that would resist the setting and have some memory to return to being round... this would be a rubber material...

A combination of rubber and polymer could be interesting. Thermoplastic olefins or TPOs could be worth looking into if a similar supplier offers rods like Yetti gave the Amazon link to...

My chairs move twice per flight, Getting in and getting out... so they have the opportunity to wear or get flat spotted evenly...

I suspect that much of the wear is a biproduct of vibration.  If you used aluminum wheels, they would probably wear a spot in the seat rail, leaving a lot of black dust.

Just some other things to consider...

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

Thank you....... great thoughts and input.  

Yep, seat movement is minimal and I suspect my little rollers could be original, or at least relatively old.  They've done a great job thus far and really still are.  

While repainting front seat frames I simply noticed the wear and thought hmmmm.......investigate!

Seat movement you say........ in the Ovation I would move seat to intitial flying position for myself, then at altitude, and if I engaged the KFC150, I'd slide that seat all the way back and take a little nap .

No AP in Mini-Mooney (MM), so no more naps !  

Thanks to all again.  

[MooneyMitch]

"To avoid getting the setting effect of marauders girls sitting on the chair."

i just read your post again.... crack up!

[MooneyMitch]

Ok, enough digital perusing now, I'm going flying! 

Enjoy this gorgeous day you all!