Foreflight Legal for IFR Navigation?

[gsengle]

Interference isn't hard the GPS signal is very low power...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flight2000]

10 minutes ago, cnoe said:

I LOVE my iPad/Stratus combo and geo-referenced plates BUT...

Just this past weekend my Air2 shut down mid-flight due to temperature while it was charging and getting some sun exposure. It doesn't happen frequently but it does happen occasionally. OTOH my GNS530W has never even denied me an LPV/glideslope approach.

Having an EFB does not make one's plane a /G no matter what Mike's lunch-buddy says.

cnoe,

You need one of these.  Haven't had an iPad overheat in the cockpit since buying and placing it in operation.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/x-nautipda13-19502.php?clickkey=4007009

Cheers,

Brian

[carusoam]

The original Garmin panel mount GPS navigators experienced interference challenges early on in MS history.  When mounted too close together their antennae would cause interference problems.  New updated antennae and proper installation solved the early problems.

GPS signals are very weak and can be over powered pretty easily.

My 65C Narco nav radio would overpower my portable Garmin GPS.  Noise on a particular VOR frequency while flying to SnF became a challenge.  VOR or portable GPS were the choice of the day... VFR, I chose the VOR anyway...  took a while to learn about the interference and where it came from...

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

23 minutes ago, flight2000 said:

cnoe,

You need one of these.  Haven't had an iPad overheat in the cockpit since buying and placing it in operation.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/x-nautipda13-19502.php?clickkey=4007009

Cheers,

Brian

Where's Jose when you need him. He's got a much cheaper ~$20 Walmart solution for relief. And don't you dare bring up this piss tube again, I'm talking about heat relief!

[M016576]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

Be aware that there is an antenna failure mode in the 430/530 series (I don't know about the later models) that not only disables the panel mount, but also prevents other GPS's from receiving satellite data.  Garmin is well aware of this problem, but mostly keeps quiet about it.

If this happens, one must turn off the 430/530 to allow other GPS devices to regain reception.

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/11114-garmin-430w-gps-antenna-problem/

 

I had this happen to me on a hard IFR day near KSUN.  My 430W antenna failed, which caused all the gps devices in the cockpit to fail.  I was already diverting to my alternate, in hard IMC, in a non-radar environment.  Luckily I had my KNS-80... I was able to arc to the ils at TWF.  Broke out at 1000' agl and landed uneventfully.

its true- there is a failure mode in some of the WAAS antennas for the 430W that wipes out all your gps's in the cockpit (I think it must emit noise that washes out the relatively weak gps signal within a certain radius).  It's pretty well documented- not only here, but beechtalk and PoA.

that was the second most stressful day I had in my mooney.

[peevee]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Where's Jose when you need him. He's got a much cheaper ~$20 Walmart solution for relief. And don't you dare bring up this piss tube again, I'm talking about heat relief!

Instructions unclear. my iPad got hot so I pissed on it. 0/10 would not try again.

[Piloto]

14 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Not for TSO type stuff but, technically, ForeFlight does have "FAA approval" for other things. Although we vanilla Part 91 folks can use EFBs pretty much reg-free, more highly regulated operators need approval under the guidelines in AC 120-76c.  ForeFlight is one of a few apps that have received approval. The airlines are, of course, mostly using Jepp apps but ForeFlight has been approved for a number of 132, 135, and other regulated ops. The even have a function set up to provide some of the approval documentation. https://www.foreflight.com/campaigns/electronic-flight-bag-approval/

 

You can use any portable EFB application as long as the airplane is equipped with an FAA TSO approved GPS navigation system. The waypoints you are going to navigate by are the ones in the navigator not in the EFB. A tablet or a phone runs multitasking operating systems that can jeopardize its operation by other applications. A certified system only runs one program thus it can not be affected by unknown applications. It is very difficult to implant a virus on a GNS 530W. But possible on a tablet or a smart phone.

José 

[midlifeflyer]

1 minute ago, Piloto said:

You can use any portable EFB application as long as the airplane is equipped with an FAA TSO approved GPS navigation system. The waypoints you are going to navigate by are the ones in the navigator not in the EFB. A tablet or a phone runs multitasking operating systems that can jeopardize its operation by other applications. A certified system only runs one program thus it can not be affected by unknown applications. It is very difficult to implant a virus on a GNS 530W. But possible on a tablet or a smart phone.

José 

Of course.

[BradB]

3 hours ago, Piloto said:

You can use any portable EFB application as long as the airplane is equipped with an FAA TSO approved GPS navigation system. The waypoints you are going to navigate by are the ones in the navigator not in the EFB. A tablet or a phone runs multitasking operating systems that can jeopardize its operation by other applications. A certified system only runs one program thus it can not be affected by unknown applications. It is very difficult to implant a virus on a GNS 530W. But possible on a tablet or a smart phone.

José 

I think the viruses on the pilot relief tube would worry me more.  Just sayin...

[Marauder]

Maybe. But the direct-but-not-/G game was going on long before the 1st iPad appeared with (or even without) real aviation maps and charts. People were using this to go "direct" 20 years ago.

Personally, I was using one of these to go "IFR direct" when I had a loss of power and an emergency. Never even part of the equation.

 

I was one of those guys who did a lot of "direct to" without a /G behind my model. But there would be no way on earth I would substitute a portable for an certified GPS for an approach on a non-emergency basis.

 

Before I had this bad boy from the past (check out the revision date) I flew with a GPS 55 (see Peter Garmin, I do use Garmin products). Both were lightyears ahead of my STS LORAN-C in terms of accuracy. In 1993 during an low ceiling IMC flight I experienced an inflight engine problem episode. It was the portable GPS that gave me the info needed to proceed direct (with confidence) to an airport to set down.

 

 

My point wasn't that portable units and iPad versions don't have a place in aviation. It's just that can't be considered a replacement for certified boxes -- which I think was suggested as the topic of this thread.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Marauder]

Want to hear something funny? I powered up that unit 19 minutes ago with new batteries. It's still acquiring the satellites.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[gsengle]

Let's us know if it comes up - my old one succumbed to the Y2K issue without some elaborate firmware update I decided not to try and do...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Marauder]

Let's us know if it comes up - my old one succumbed to the Y2K issue without some elaborate firmware update I decided not to try and do...
 
 
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

It's got one bar and that's all she's got. The last map update shows 1998. That sounds about right. I bought one of them new fancy color versions (296).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

I was one of those guys who did a lot of "direct to" without a /G behind my model. But there would be no way on earth I would substitute a portable for an certified GPS for an approach on a non-emergency basis.

****

My point wasn't that portable units and iPad versions don't have a place in aviation. It's just that can't be considered a replacement for certified boxes -- which I think was suggested as the topic of this thread.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Yep, that was where the topic was heading. You and I are in complete agreement.

...although if it were back then, no onboard GPS, and I needed to shoot an NDB approach and the ADF and my Garmin handheld disagreed, I'd be very tempted to trust the accuracy reliability of the handheld over the needle.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

Want to hear something funny? I powered up that unit 19 minutes ago with new batteries. It's still acquiring the satellites.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

I don't see any reason it wouldn't. when I stopped using my 95 XL, it was because it was no longer "supported," which only meant the Jepp database had outsized the unit's capacity.

[Cruiser]

54 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Yep, that was where the topic was heading. You and I are in complete agreement.

...although if it were back then, no onboard GPS, and I needed to shoot an NDB approach and the ADF and my Garmin handheld disagreed, I'd be very tempted to trust the accuracy reliability of the handheld over the needle.

and that is where you would get into major trouble. I flew with a Garmin GPS18 PC connected to my laptop (years ago) and had several incidents where the GPS signal was more then a 1/2 mile off, something about picking up the wrong cycle on the satellite signal. I also remember an accident (fatal) in which the NTSB suspected the pilot was using a portable gps on an instrument approach (equipment found in the wreckage.

[midlifeflyer]

35 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

and that is where you would get into major trouble. I flew with a Garmin GPS18 PC connected to my laptop (years ago) and had several incidents where the GPS signal was more then a 1/2 mile off, something about picking up the wrong cycle on the satellite signal. I also remember an accident (fatal) in which the NTSB suspected the pilot was using a portable gps on an instrument approach (equipment found in the wreckage.

1/2 mile off? I don't think I've ever seen an off-airport NDB approach that accurate.  On-airport NDB, sure. Even homing would get you to the runway pretty good. But with the way very small errors get magnified when the NDB is 5-6-7-8 miles from the runway? 

But you make a good point. One reason non-certified GPS is not proper for primary IFR navigation is the lack of integrity monitoring functions.

See if you can find that NTSB report. I'd be curious about the exact situation.

[jetdriven]

On 3/2/2017 at 5:24 PM, BradB said:

I think the viruses on the pilot relief tube would worry me more.  Just sayin...

  I've been flying a /A plane for five years now with a Garmin Aera 500 GPS in a panel dock. Pretty much all the time we get cleared direct IFR to fixes and Ill accept them. Once in Canada, Sault Ste Marie, we were going to Kingston Ontario. Solid IfR, I had to file this long convoluted airways route which is about 50 waypoints. About five minutes after take off the controller asking "can you navigate direct to Kingston?" I replied "I could navigate direct Tokyo if you'd like me to..l.  He laughed and cleared me direct to Kingston and that was the end of it. It was nearly 400 miles away but I guess those VOR's are a lot more powerful up there, I swear it was centered with the "to" flag on. 

[bradp]

One subtopic not in this conversation is how portable GPS IFR buddy presents his information. He must not fly a lot of IMC or ever experienced spatial disorientation that can be induced by looking down at your lap when climbing or accelerating or if he's looking across the panel. The presentation of data rotates if he has it on the yoke. I find that to be more of a disconcerting issue that the hardware and software that presents the data.

Also I have had non heat related freezes of foreflight and random reboots on my iPad.

I've been flying with an old 296 gps slaved to my GNS box. Best of both worlds- use it as small MFD for day to day use and can use it as a VFR gps backup otherwise. I had a GNS data card go recently and actually liked using the panel temporarily mounted 296 to present data over my iPad because it was front and center on the panel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cruiser]

6 hours ago, jetdriven said:

  I've been flying a /A plane for five years now with a Garmin Aera 500 GPS in a panel dock. Pretty much all the time we get cleared direct IFR to fixes and Ill accept them. Once in Canada, Sault Ste Marie, we were going to Kingston Ontario. Solid IfR, I had to file this long convoluted airways route which is about 50 waypoints. About five minutes after take off the controller asking "can you navigate direct to Kingston?" I replied "I could navigate direct Tokyo if you'd like me to..l.  He laughed and cleared me direct to Kingston and that was the end of it. It was nearly 400 miles away but I guess those VOR's are a lot more powerful up there, I swear it was centered with the "to" flag on. 

That is why they ask........ it's on tape and you become responsible. There is nothing stopping you from filing /A, /B, /C. /G, /anything

It is the PIC responsibility to decide if an ATC instruction can be followed. i.e. "unable"..................

(all above written in the context of legal vs practical)

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, bradp said:

One subtopic not in this conversation is how portable GPS IFR buddy presents his information. He must not fly a lot of IMC or ever experienced spatial disorientation that can be induced by looking down at your lap when climbing or accelerating or if he's looking across the panel. 

I think I am missing something. Why would our handheld or tablet GPS IFR buddy do that any more than our certified IFR GPS buddy? 

[bradp]

Point being where you place your handheld / portable gps in the cockpit is important. Some motions like reaching down to pick something up - like seat next to you, or certain head motions, like staring at something on your lap and then picking your head up can increase the risk of spatial disorientation and vertigo.

 

One of the panel GPS benefits is that the data you need to navigate is placed front and center in your scan. No rubbernecking required.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[gsxrpilot]

I think it's important to differentiate between Navigation data and Attitude data.  The two certainly tend to merge on approach as one gets close to the runway. But enroute, they are two very different things.

I would not want to rely on my iPad to keep me right side up in hard IMC, (although it might work in an emergency). But I'd have no problem using the iPad or even phone, to get me from A to B, in that same IMC or nighttime on a cross country flight.

I want my Attitude data to be front and center in the panel, hard mounted, permanent and certified.

Nav data can fall on the floor, be retrieved and reloaded if necessary without any adverse consequences.

[HarryB]

Can ForeFlight mirroe (in real time) an approach from an FAA approved navigator (like a GPS 175)?

[bradp]

6 hours ago, HarryB said:

Can ForeFlight mirroe (in real time) an approach from an FAA approved navigator (like a GPS 175)?

ForeFlight does indicate your gps position and will show it overlayed onto an approach chart.  It will also replay your previous tracks to show position and altitude.