Second GPS or Nav/com

[milotron]

Looking for some input.

 

I currently have a GNS430W as primary and a KX165  with GS in position 2. I am considering adding a second GPS unit and moving the 430W in as #2. The thought being that the GNS will be a better backup ( technology, reliability and capability ) than the KX165. I also still have and ADF, and am keeping it as we still have and use it in many approaches in BC.

Thoughts on this?  The second GPS will be a 530W or 540 if I can find some $$. I do fly IFR often and user the WAAS approaches.  Is this a better approach for a second unit or do I have panel envy from the other upgrades going on in this board?

 

Your wisdom is always appreciated.

 

 

[Bob - S50]

I would think either way would work.  Personally, I'd be too cheap to buy the new GPS until the KX165 broke and I had to choose between repairing it or replacing it.  Our KNS80 just broke and we repaired it rather than buy another GPS.  I like the idea of having a true DME rather than needing to do math on some approaches.

If I was going to spend the money to put in a second GPS, I wouldn't bother with a 530W.  It won't give any more capability than the 430W you have other than a larger screen.  However, putting in a GTN650/750 or 440/540 gives you not only newer equipment, but more capability.  That includes loading airways, holding patterns, and easier waypoint loading.

[Jerry 5TJ]

How about

   sell the 430W

   sell the KX165

   buy a GTX750 and install it

   buy a 796 for panel or yoke as NAV backup 

    buy a FlightStream 210 to give you another AHRS displayed on 796 and iPad and to link everything together.

 

Both the 430W and KX165 are still selling at fairly high prices 

 

Disclaimer:  I am not unbiased -- I have a 750, 796, FS210 and like the system very much.  

 

 

[StevenL757]

5 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

How about

   sell the 430W

   sell the KX165

   buy a GTX750 and install it

   buy a 796 for panel or yoke as NAV backup 

    buy a FlightStream 210 to give you another AHRS displayed on 796 and iPad and to link everything together.

 

Both the 430W and KX165 are still selling at fairly high prices 

 

Disclaimer:  I am not unbiased -- I have a 750, 796, FS210 and like the system very much.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the portable units are certified to act as legal backup for IMC operations.  Nice to have in the cockpit as an emergency only and in VFR, but not legal for IFR.

I'd vote for this scenario above, but keep the 430W (if it were a 430, I'd say probably not worth spending the $3800 to make it WAAS-capable), buy either a 650 or a 750, and incorporate the FS210.  14V KX165s are going for a little bit more than the 28V flavor, but admittefly, there's still a bit of an investment to realize the safety through redundancy of the 430W + 650/750 combination.  As always, a personal choice...

Steve

[OR75]

The 430W is a good GPS

the King 165 is s great radio 

iPad or any portable is a good back up. Mostly for loss of electric power 

 

 

[Marauder]

Just now, milotron said:

Looking for some input.

 

I currently have a GNS430W as primary and a KX165  with GS in position 2. I am considering adding a second GPS unit and moving the 430W in as #2. The thought being that the GNS will be a better backup ( technology, reliability and capability ) than the KX165. I also still have and ADF, and am keeping it as we still have and use it in many approaches in BC.

Thoughts on this?  The second GPS will be a 530W or 540 if I can find some $$. I do fly IFR often and user the WAAS approaches.  Is this a better approach for a second unit or do I have panel envy from the other upgrades going on in this board?

 

Your wisdom is always appreciated.

 

 

I went through this thought process last year. My old reliable Narco began giving me problem and I began looking at solutions. I thought about adding a second GTN but came to the realization that in theory, the #2 is really a backup. Short of a failure of the GTN 650, the second radio would be relegated to a backup function. That is a lot of money for something acting as a backup. I decided that the failure rate of these navigators was low enough that putting in a second GPS was not going to buy me much. In addition, my Aspens retain the flight plan route from the GPS, so it was still present in case of a GPS failure.

I elected instead to install a GNC 255B. It is a 16W radio and is VOR/LOC/ILS capable unit. If someone offered me a free or really low priced 430/530 WAAS unit, I might consider it. At the prices they are commanding, I wouldn't.

[KSMooniac]

My plane came with a 530/430 combo that I upgraded to WAAS during the promotion in 2007. I love the capability and redundancy, and especially the ability to show 6 data fields on the 430.

Having said all that, I think two of these boxes is overkill. A modern nav/com would be sufficient for #2 in my opinion. Especially if supplemented with an ipad and/or x96 portable that is tethered to the panel mount GPS.

I'd put excess cash towards an engine monitor if not already present (far more valuable than second GPS), GPSS for the autopilot, etc.

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[Piloto]

Adding the GNS 530W will enhance your panel and capabilities. The bigger screen on the 530 makes it easier to see your flight path at glance with no need to zoom out and in or scroll on the map, great for approaches. With the 430 you can look at other data without disturbing the 530 map display. Great combination

José

[carusoam]

Reliable and Narco in the same sentence... (the knob gears broke reliably in all of my M20C's Narco radios) 

The ADF has to go like a B&W television. Unless it leaves an ugly hole in the panel.  Wait, does it still provide inflight entertainment? 1010WIN... 'give us ten minutes, we give you the world...' (old AM radio in the NYC area) the ADFs are slowly being removed around the US. The current ADF locations are also in the current GPS databases...

Two nice things about the KX165 is its broadcast strength and its ability to show which VOR radial you are on. Pull or push the right knob...

Time keeps stepping forward, there is no going back. Sell off the old stuff while it has some residual value, or it sits in a box or on a shelf collecting more dust next to the coffee grinder light and mechanical rpm gauge...

Fun ideas from a PP...

Best regards,

-a-

[milotron]

Thanks for the input. My thought experiments are clearly not unique.  I currently have an EDM700, but am getting it upgraded to add USB and fuel flow, plus will wire this into the 430W for fuel data. I need to get a price on the EDM 800 upgrade as that would make me really happy, but don't have space for it....yet.

After flying today, I really do wonder what function it will add? The 430W still works really well and does everything it needs to. I am familiar with the inner/outer twisty dance so the interface issue is not a selling feature so much.

The KX does work well, and I am a CB....  ADF stays also. A couple of approaches and departures in the mountains here require them; the GNS does not model them, but maybe the newer systems do. No GNSS on the them yet.

 

BTW

On 1/27/2017 at 10:26 AM, carusoam said:

 

Two nice things about the KX165 is its broadcast strength and its ability to show which VOR radial you are on. Pull or push the right knob...

 

I have being flying behind a KX165 in various planes for 10 years and never knew that!

[Guest]

11 hours ago, milotron said:

Thanks for the input. My thought experiments are clearly not unique.  I currently have an EDM700, but am getting it upgraded to add USB and fuel flow, plus will wire this into the 430W for fuel data. I need to get a price on the EDM 800 upgrade as that would make me really happy, but don't have space for it....yet.

After flying today, I really do wonder what function it will add? The 430W still works really well and does everything it needs to. I am familiar with the inner/outer twisty dance so the interface issue is not a selling feature so much.

The KX does work well, and I am a CB....  ADF stays also. A couple of approaches and departures in the mountains here require them; the GNS does not model them, but maybe the newer systems do. No GNSS on the them yet.

 

BTW

I have being flying behind a KX165 in various planes for 10 years and never knew that!

I'd put the #2 AI in place of the turn coordinator, you now have an open hole for an EDM 730/830.

Clarence

[milotron]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I'd put the #2 AI in place of the turn coordinator, you now have an open hole for an EDM 730/830.

Clarence

Interesting idea. The existing AI has no turn or coordination info. So replace that AI with one that has info, otherwise the turn coordinator of some kind if required is it not?

 

After another review yesterday, the GNS430W is 14/28V version. The original one was 28V only so there is a power converter in the back and the associated extra wiring and circuit breakers installed. I can now rewire back to 14V only and remove the extra bits, likely freeing up some room in the right hand stack to move the TKS panel around, coordinate the other switches in to something more cohesive and possible fit the 800 in there.

Edited January 29, 2017 by milotron
more words

[cnoe]

Slip/skid indicator screws right on the front of your backup AI. Not only does the FAA allow removal of your turn coordinator, they actually encourage it. I'll link the advisory circular upon request.


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[milotron]

I'm in Canada, but would like see the FAA advisory. Thanks cnoe.

 

So... no 1 minute turn indication required?  Just the ball?

[Guest]

At the risk of starting another pissing contest, Transport Canada also allows turn coordinator replacement with an AI with a slip skid ball.  As has been pointed out, your AI may have provision for the ball to mounted to the front.

Clarence

[Andy95W]

What are you saying, Clarence?  You tryin' to start sumthin'?

Hey, we got a lot goin' on down here right now.

[milotron]

Thanks Clarence. I was poking through the CARS but could only find reference to removing this device if you have a 'third attitude indicator'. Not sure if that means to indicate a third attitude ( yaw? ) or actually three AIs.

 

Yes, it looks like I can screw one to the front bezel. $200 CDN from aircraft spruce.

[cnoe]

I'm in Canada, but would like see the FAA advisory. Thanks cnoe.
 
So... no 1 minute turn indication required?  Just the ball?

This should be a good link to FAA Advisory Circular 91-75.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC91-75.pdf


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[milotron]

thank you sir.