Will Samurai Husky pass his checkride?

[Conrad]

Thanks Samurai for all these updates! I'm going to be going through many of the same things soon, and it's super helpful to have a better idea what kinds of things I need to be prepared for. Actually my situation is about to become even more similar to yours, as I'm about to move my Mooney over to KPAO.

[cnoe]

1 hour ago, Samurai Husky said:

I know how to check the maps DB; they were up to date; It was only the self test portion that i wasnt sure on; The CDI wasn't displaying the self test information on the screen and i had no idea why. 

I think its because i have to set the PFD nav to VOR1 and verify it, then switch to VOR2 and verify it again. There was also a message that popped up on the screen for the MFD that said 'heading data invalid' to which i said it would go away once the self test was over. He asked if i was sure and i didnt want to lie, it was mostly a guess but made logical sense. 

Turns out that is the right answer and the 2 430's push data to the screens during the self test. The message is making sure that you dont take off before ending the self test and fly on its test data. 

Here was a personal pet peeve of mine back in the days of renting planes during training...

Many schools bill you for flight time based on a Hobbs wired to the master or avionics master switch (without an oil-pressure switch wired in). If I wanted to sit in the airplane and study the avionics and systems I had to pay $100+ per hour to do so. Therefore very little time was spent actually learning and understanding these things at my own pace while on the ground. Then when you're actually flying it's often not a great idea to spend significant time with your head in the cockpit fiddling around with the GPS/radios/navs etc.  No wonder new pilots aren't all that familiar with these things.

Don't sweat the missed opportunity. The real lessons come once you've got the cert and start flying on your own!

 

[Samurai Husky]

Yea, i was thinking the same thing. If i want to know the system its going to cost me hobbs time. Its not like they have a manual for the 430 when coupled to a Ex5000

Edited August 21, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[bradp]

This was most likely the examiner making a point that the aircraft for the ride was a technically advanced aircraft (TAA).  He wants you to know the systems of the aircraft inside and out.  If it had TKS or a turbo installed, you may have just as easily been grilled on the functionality and failure modes of either of those technologies even though the pessimist in me thinks he may have reacted the same way many of us did when hearing about a primary student doing primary training in a Cirrus and he was going to grill you (and your CFI, indirectly) for it.  

If it makes you feel any better my IR hours building buddy failed his IR check ride because he couldn't maintain separation from cloud in VMC coming back from his check ride ride over a ridge. The ride was essentially passed, but he did something dumb and pushed it showing poor ADM.  This was before the decision  making emphasis that the new standards are based on.  The DPE is one of the most reasonable guys I met, and gave him an out before he saw a problem coming, but the examinee nonetheless took the bait and caused a bust. He is also lucky he didn't have any action as I believe he caused a loss of separation for anther IFR flight above him coming over the same ridge (which he could not see).  My buddy was bummed like you'd never imagine with his pink slip, but he picked himself up and brushed himself off and retook the test showing good ADM.  He went on to do the commercial and his CFI rides with the same examiner.  

This same examiner made me draw the workings of a constant speed prop and a propeller governor on a whiteboard during my oral even though I hadn't even been in the cockpit of a high performance or complex aircraft. I think it was because I was running my mouth about something else and flying though the exam showing off how much I knew.  Alright smart guy - draw.   Lesson learned - answer the question and no more and no less.   

Continue forward.  You're almost there.  Study up again and prepare even more.  You'll get it.  He also gave you a great hint.  Calling off a flight for a good reason shows good ADM (maybe the weather was marginal or the winds were squirlly). Next time if something comes up with the plane or the weather or whatever, still use your get out of jail card if you need to.  It shows good ADM.     

 

[Danb]

Sam, I'd get another DPE, sounds like he's treating you like a more advanced pilot going for another rating. Ive only been flying for 30+ years so don't go by what I mentioned.

[Samurai Husky]

Yea, i tried to get another one. They are all booked until Sept; 

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Danb said:

Sam, I'd get another DPE, sounds like he's treating you like a more advanced pilot going for another rating. Ive only been flying for 30+ years so don't go by what I mentioned.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment.  

1.) The examiner is required to ask systems questions about the aircraft in which the checkride is to be administered.  The GNS-430 is installed in the airplane, it is fair game for questions.

       - if he asked how to tune in and fly an ILS, I might agree- but he didn't.

2.) He didn't bust you.  He probably could have rationalized a bust if he had, but he didn't.  He isn't supposed to be easy, he is supposed to be tough, but fair.

        - Take a second and think about your favorite teacher from school.  I will bet money that teacher was one that challenged you, but was still fair.  Your examiner was fair.

I suppose since I've only been flying for 27+ years you may feel like taking Danb's word for it instead of mine.  I've had more checkrides than I can count, and still have 2 per year, so I've had experience with good, bad, and too-easy examiners.  Yours sounds tough but fair.  I think the worst examiners are too easy.

       - think about the things in your life that you consider truly worth having.  I'll bet they weren't easy.

[mccdeuce]

I wouldn't get another examiner. 

While I don't agree with some of his questions he didn't fail you. He is potentially trying to help you learn more which is what is important. 

Yes you you should know your systems. Basic operation that goes with your rating.  If you feel that he is diving into a realm past your rating you should ask him about it; have that conversation. He'll probably respect and help you more. Or guide you as to why it applies to your flying. 

[Andy95W]

22 minutes ago, mccdeuce said:

I wouldn't get another examiner. 

While I don't agree with some of his questions he didn't fail you. He is potentially trying to help you learn more which is what is important. 

When you pass a checkride with a too-easy examiner, you feel like you cheated the system and didn't have a chance to prove yourself.  You feel cheap, like you got away with something you shouldn't have.

When you pass your checkride with an examiner like yours, you will feel a sense of relief, accomplishment, and pride.

But mostly pride.

[thinwing]

 

nd 

[thinwing]

5 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

Yea, i tried to get another one. They are all booked until Sept; 

i think I see why this guy was available and the others are booked up...word gets arround if a de is a BB

[Samuri Husky]

Im just going to keep this guy and see how it goes, if he stops the check ride for another technicality then i will take issue.

i was told he is very fair on the check ride part and thats all i am looking for.

[carusoam]

Sam,

What's with the new Avatar?  

You changed your identity/gone into hiding over this???  

Let us know if you need help to get logged back in as yourself.  Craig can work some magic to find the keys.

-a-

[Samurai Husky]

:0

Its my alter ego.... maybe i should put the other dog on that one

i should mention is the alter ego that didnt know how to spell Samurai

Edited August 23, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[Samurai Husky]

So I think i am about to lose my mind; 

I've done 1 check ride and just had another discontinuance. 

The first check ride this guy laid into me; Started off overcast and he said lets just do pattern work until it fog layer burns off. Great, get all of that out of the way at a airport i am familiar with. 

That is exactly where the good stuff ends. I was already jacked up and anxiety running high, but, Upon starting the plane i am going through my check lists and all the sudden the question start flying; 'The fuel flow gage isnt working' The ALT2 light is on, VOR2 isnt passing self test; He was about to get out of the plane at that point, but i said well, we can plaqerd the items as inop, but i cant disable or pull them. So i pull out a bunch of post-it notes and start tagging everything. None of the equipment is needed for VFR flight, and some how he just said 'what ever' and we continued. 

Well, that got me really rattled, but manged to get to the run up area and take off with now problems. Came back around and landed no problems. Went up again no problems, but this time he said 'now do a no flaps landing' I said 'unable, the runway is too short of this plane. He said 'BS, you can do one here', I insisted that i was not comfortable doing a no flaps landing on a 2400' runway on a 0 wind day when my GS would be higher than normal. He insisted again but this time insinuated that if i didnt the ride would be over. So i asked 'can i do it with 1 notch of flaps' he said yea. We landed with maybe 300ft of runway left with almost burning up the brakes. Well now my anxietly level is way high. We take off again and this time he asks for a short approach. We get it and he said pull the power. "here?' , 'yes here'; We had just turned down wind and were barely at the halfway point of the runway. I had always pulled power at the numbers; 

So i pulled the power and prayed to Jesus. I ended up slipping in my turn because i was anticipating wind like we normally have and added rudder (this was my fault) and we ended up fast and low so 'go around'. Well at this point my brain is fried. So he asked for a soft field, botched that up, went around again; This time we just went off somewhere near by and did turns around a point, that went fine; Went back did a short feild landing, that went fine. Test over. 

I asked about doing all the other things now that the clouds had lifted, he said since i didnt pass the first part you cant do the next part. Done 

Forgot to mention, when he did the fail write up; i didnt get no flaps landing credit. I asked about it, he said i didnt do a no flaps landing so no credit.... WTF, then why did you let me land with 50% flaps. Anyway.

Scheduled for a week later (today); 

Last night went out with my CFI flew the whole test no problems; I noticed that there was a flat spot forming on the right tire; so i called maintenance an grounded the plane so they could change the tire first thing. Well wake up this morning and my schedule was cancelled with the plane off line until 4PM CRAP test is at 12.

So i race 20 miles to the airport, weaving through traffic to talk with the maintenance people. They said no worries, it will be done by 11. Good.

Go home and get on the treadmill to burn off some excess energy and anxiety; While on the treadmill the DPE calls, we need to start 1 hour early. I said we are unable to because the plane is in maintenance, should be ready by 11 then i have to preflight. He said he would be there at 1130. Great, so now i up the speed on the treadmill because now i just just 10 mins to get ready and go.

Get to the airport at 1045, plane is still in pieces (WTF); They said it would be ready by 1130 now.....

DPE shows up and we go through some paperwork... Guess what, my CFI for got to fill out IACRA for the retest and he is up in the air with another clinet. So i call txt etc. to get him back down. In the mean time the DPE leaves and goes off somewhere and tells us to call him when its ready. Go out preflight the plane, put all the same plaqards up as last time. Go back in and spend the next hour doing another IACRA with my instructor; We then get into a argument over my middle name. On my student license it just has my initial, on everything else it has my full middle name. After about 20 minutes of back and forth he said he would accept it but the FAA might now, so dont cry to him.

We finally get that done and head out to the plane;

I get as far as sitting in the plane when he starts pointing out the placards. I said it was the same as last time and they are not needed for VFR flight. Then he sees the one for batt2. He asked about that and what happens if batt1 fails. I said we should be fine as long as the alt doesnt fail. Not good enough.

We then get into an argument because the plane is fit for VFR flight and its no worse off then a 172. He didnt care and was not going to fly in that plane. I said we can move over to the other plane but i need 20 mins to do the preflight. Nope, he has a hard stop at 230 and its now 130 and we need at least an hour to do the flight. 

Now im pissed and demanded my check back. At first he refused and so i threatened to pay the 10 and cancel the check... He handed it back and got out of the plane. My CFI just so happened to be walking by at the time with his other client; They talked for a bit and my CFI basically said the same thing i was saying, but the DPE wasn't budging. He eventually said he had to go and left. 

So here I am... I am questioning my entire flying experience. Nothing has been easy and at every turn i keep running into more walls. I have manged my way through most of them, but im to the point of exhaustion and dont know what to do any more. 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[N601RX]

Probably not what you want to hear, but a Cessna 150 with a single com radio, transponder and a few page POH is an excellent plane for training and check rides.

[TWinter]

Sam,

I've watched this thread and I am glad I did my PP many years ago. Obviously, times have changed and the rules seem more stringent. It looks like you have done everything in your power to get there..Now I'll put my flame suit on because I know you have earned some solid followers on MS.

Here is my take..Step away and look at the whole picture of where you are and why?

It's seems like every challenge you have been faced with has had some relationship tied to the complexity of the plane, instructor and location. Some of these things you have control of, other parts you may not. 

"now do a no flaps landing' I said 'unable, the runway is too short of this plane. He said 'BS, you can do one here', I insisted that i was not comfortable doing a no flaps landing on a 2400' runway on a 0 wind day when my GS would be higher than normal. He insisted again but this time insinuated that if i didnt the ride would be over. So i asked 'can i do it with 1 notch of flaps' he said yea. We landed with maybe 300ft of runway left with almost burning up the brakes. Well now my anxietly level is way high. We take off again and this time he asks for a short approach. We get it and he said pull the power. "here?' , 'yes here'; We had just turned down wind and were barely at the halfway point of the runway. I had always pulled power at the numbers; 

So i pulled the power and prayed to Jesus. I ended up slipping in my turn because i was anticipating wind like we normally have and added rudder (this was my fault) and we ended up fast and low so 'go around'. Well at this point my brain is fried. So he asked for a soft field, botched that up, went around again; This time we just went off somewhere near by and did turns around a point, that went fine; Went back did a short feild landing, that went fine. Test over". 

 

"That is exactly where the good stuff ends. I was already jacked up and anxiety running high, but, Upon starting the plane i am going through my check lists and all the sudden the question start flying; 'The fuel flow gage isnt working' The ALT2 light is on, VOR2 isnt passing self test; He was about to get out of the plane at that point, but i said well, we can plaqerd the items as inop, but i cant disable or pull them. So i pull out a bunch of post-it notes and start tagging everything. None of the equipment is needed for VFR flight, and some how he just said 'what ever' and we continued"

In a simple 152 or Cherokee 140 or like you do not have complex features you have been faced with or the possible failures..Those planes are simple..no two batteries etc, no complex electronics and very easy to fly and manage speed. Brother, I promise I want you to pass, I would not be following the posts. You are trying to learn on the west coast (busy, busy airspace), you are trying to learn in a higher end plane and it seems like the examiners are extra picky out there, probably because of the busy airspace.

You are stuck between a rock and hard place. You appear to know your stuff, take a long weekend or mini-vacation and go someplace and learn in a less complicated plane, maybe pick the brain of a different instructor and consider a less complicated airspace. Do all of this and the when he says "pull the power" you will glide that thing in like "butter".

I think if you continue on the path you are headed you soon be giving up and hanging up the headset, or spending a whole lot of money on retakes.. You've come this far..

You can do it brother...Just re-evaluate, regroup and most of all make a new plan of attack.

-Tom

[FBCK]

Dont feel to bad about it.  When I was getting my license it was a real shit show, it took 1.5 years and 8 different instructor.  Busy flying club where if you were not there when they first opened there doors the first day of every month to book your training flights for that month you would not be flying for the month.  The flight instructors would stick around for a few months, build some hours then move on, and you would have to bring the next guy up to speed.  Most instructors were 20 year olds fresh out of school with no communication skills what so ever, when I look back at it I,m surprised I didn't push a couple of them out of the plane in midair.

 

Point being this is not the real world, so be patient with the process, and laugh the ridiculous off, you will find things will actually go smoother for you. Dont let it beat you.

[donkaye]

I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know what plane you are taking the test in, but I would terminate any connection with that DPE and report him to the FAA as being dangerous.  There is no way I would do a no flap landing in a Mooney at Palo Alto, let alone a no power emergency landing.  The risks are too great.  The place to do those safely is San Jose, just a short distance away.

As far as the airplane is concerned, I also wouldn't use an airplane that has any problems associated with it.  Clubs that don't maintain their airplanes also should not be used, and this one seems like one of those.

Who was the DPE and what is the name of the Club so I can call the FSDO and report him and not recommend anyone join that club.  I don't teach Private so I don't care if the DPE knows who I am or not.  The guy is a danger to the public.

 

[Samurai Husky]

4 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know what plane you are taking the test in, but I would terminate any connection with that DPE and report him to the FAA as being dangerous.  There is no way I would do a no flap landing in a Mooney at Palo Alto, let alone a no power emergency landing.  The risks are too great.  The place to do those safely is San Jose, just a short distance away.

As far as the airplane is concerned, I also wouldn't use an airplane that has any problems associated with it.  Clubs that don't maintain their airplanes also should not be used, and this one seems like one of those.

Who was the DPE and what is the name of the Club so I can call the FSDO and report him and not recommend anyone join that club.  I don't teach Private so I don't care if the DPE knows who I am or not.  The guy is a danger to the public.

 

If you dont mind, let not use any names or 'scenarios' if you go to report him., I dont want it somehow being tied back to me. 

The plane is a SR20; 

Flight Club is West Valley; 

DPE is Tom H.... he has been around for a while so i will guess you know him.

The problems with the plane weren't exactly horrible. The fuel flow gauge in the dash is a back up to the one in the avionics; The NAV2 HDI was off, but the rest of the Garmin 430 was perfectly fine. NAV1 was also fine; The biggest problem I think is probably the ALT2 light, which then causes the BATT2 breaker to pop. Some times its fine, other times its not,. so its grounding out somewhere. Oh and the #4 CHT probe is broken; it inconstantly reads bad temps. Thats been happening since my Solo XC. The plane has almost 1900 hours on it since OH, its due for a lot of TLC.

I dont think its a accident waiting to happen; there are a lot of issues; but nothing that i would consider dangerous. Not every plane has redundant alternators or batteries, so i wouldn't say that its more dangerous than any of those. '

I will say that the DPE does have something against cirrus. A lot of times i was corrected with information that would work in a 172 but could be fatal in a cirrus. IE after my last test he said 'during your pre take off briefing you said you would pull the chute at above 500' on take off if the engine failed. I would never do that, you should always fly the plane. What if you were at 498' would you still do it?' I asked what my alternative was; 'You should land straight ahead'...... Uhhh, straight ahead is either the Facebook parking lot, a marsh with no smooth surfaces, or a ocean'.....

No at 500' im pulling the chute and landing safely in the marsh.

We then got into a discussion about impossible turns. He asked if i practiced them, i said no. He said i should and that a good pilot can make the turn back to the runway at about 1000'. Well, in a SR20 1000' is about 2nm from the airport. so you are not going to make it back. Not only that, but there are documented fatalities while trying to practice it.

I want to be a safe pilot, i want to be a good pilot... I dont want to be a dead pilot. I would have been more than happy to do nor flaps or engine out at mid field at KLVK or KRHV; but not KPAO.

[glafaille]

Husky:

I've been a professional pilot for almost 40 years and taken many many check rides with the FAA. I can tell you right now that getting into any airplane with a lot of broke stuff is going to set a bad tone for the entire ride.  The FAA attitude is if it's installed it should work, period!  And realistically, we all want everything in our aircraft to work.  So using this particular airplane for your ride is a bad idea in my opinion.  

You should be assigned the best in the fleet for checkrides.  Why take a chance irritating the DPE?  Not worth it in my opinion.

There once was a wise and well known aircraft designer/promoter/huckster/manufacturer, named Bill Lear, perhaps you have heard of him.  I once read a quote attributed to him that is very prophetic.  If you don't install it in an airplane, you don't have to maintain it.  In other words, simpler is usually better.  

[thinwing]

SH...I have read this entire thread..and have to agree with Don Kaye...The DPE (Tom H) is going to end up killing his student !There is no reason to demand a no flap landing in a Sr 20 on a short strip.You didn't mention your fuel load but will assume full tanks with two up front!...accident waiting to happen plus very hard on the equipment!As I mentioned...he's a BB!..and since you stiffed him for the last check ride  (good for you)you might as well bite the bullet and get another DPE...I would also make the report to the local fsdo

[thinwing]

Ps..if you run into a lengthy delay...can't you arrange another solo xcountry say to Ksac...I can put you in touch with a local DPE ,take the exam there...no fog or short strips (at least within reasonable exam range) This is one of those times to get out of dodge!Best of luck

[XXX]

Hi Sam,

Get a new examiner. This guy is a total dick and has done an incredible disservice to you. Has your instructor had any previous issues with this guy with other students?

 

 

[Samurai Husky]

Just now, glafaille said:

Husky:

I've been a professional pilot for almost 40 years and taken many many check rides with the FAA. I can tell you right now that getting into any airplane with a lot of broke stuff is going to set a bad tone for the entire ride.  The FAA attitude is if it's installed it should work, period!  And realistically, we all want everything in our aircraft to work.  So using this particular airplane for your ride is a bad idea in my opinion.  

You should be assigned the best in the fleet for checkrides.  Why take a chance irritating the DPE?  Not worth it in my opinion.

There once was a wise and well known aircraft designer/promoter/huckster/manufacturer, named Bill Lear, perhaps you have heard of him.  I once read a quote attributed to him that is very prophetic.  If you don't install it in an airplane, you don't have to maintain it.  In other words, simpler is usually better.  

100% agree, my problem is that there is no rental that is 100%; Its about risk reward; Worst case scenario, i said we could use 'pilotage' to get to KTCY which is a non towered airport and call a friend of mine that lives close by to give us a ride back. 

He didnt go for it. 

If it was my plane and i was going on a long distance flight, i wouldnt have gone. But at the same time, i wouldnt have left it broken for 2+ months either. I really just want to get this over with so i can move on from this club and get my own plane.

The other SR20 is in better condition, but its beyond booked and its a G3 which changes the flight characteristics (and rents for more); The next time i can even get into it is Thursday...

At this point I am just waiting for my CFI to tell me what i can do. 

I read all these Flair updates on reddit and they all are SO easy; The DPE is even helpful. My experience so far is the opposite. 

 

@thinwing

Dude, might take you up on that. Im waiting to see what my CFI says; I even told him I am all for flying out to somewhere else to take the ride. It doesnt have to be in the bay area. KSAC seemed like a pretty chill airport when i was out there. My problem is that i dont know any of the other airports out there. So if he diverts me to some random place i would be pretty unprepared. Also i still have to get passed the clouds to get there; so i would still be weather dependent.