How to fly with another pilot?

[carusoam]

Mike,

Your stall warning sounds ('goes off') briefly at the moment of each landing.  A precision that is not always standard for many pilots.  I believe it's a compliment.

GS,

See how many can answer that in the husband/wife category...

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, PMcClure said:

I tell every passenger to keep their fingers off my panel, this goes especially for other pilots, CFI's and even flight examiners. 

You mean you won't like it if I reach over to set up your radios the much better way I like them? 

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, gsengle said:

But my question, which no one has tried to answer, is if you do want to fly as a 2 person crew, what is a good division of responsibilities?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Depends on the pilots. First and foremost, one and only one needs to be the PIC. "Pilot in Command" means "Pilot in Charge". 

Beyond that it should be the subject of discussion but the assignment of duties is ultimately up to the PIC.

One pilot flying while the other takes care of the radios is pretty common. I've done that and I think it's often done as an SOP in "real" 2-pilot crews.  But some pilots prefer to handle their own radios and I've also participated in flights where the flying pilot handles everything, unless he asks the other pilot to do something.

i had a friend some years ago with whom we would take family trips. Two standards we developed were pretty simple. One was the second system I described. Pilot flying did everything unless he wanted to assign it to the other pilot. The other was about making a diversion decision: "he who is most chicken wins".

Both came in handy on a trip to KOSH one year as we headed toward a line of thunderstorms in our way. 

[chrisk]

6 hours ago, 201er said:

What do you mean by this? Is this sarcasm or what is the direct meaning?

I've seen several of your videos where it looks like you have made some really nice landings.  Your clearly doing things right there.  And it looks like you work hard to have good technique.  -And if you look at the number of Mooneys that have prop strikes on landings, that is not the case for all pilots.  

From what I have seen, I would have no problem flying left or right seat with you in the plane.   

[Mooneymite]

This  thread is very interesting viewed from the perspective of "the other pilot".

Airline SOP's have dealt with the foibles/antics/likes and dislikes of individual pilots for years.  I attended my first CRM briefing in 1978.  The objections and skepticism expressed by many of the pilots sounded much like some of the posts on this thread!  Most of the pilots who really needed CRM training the worst dismissed CRM as being a bunch of psycho-babble.  For those guys, enlightenment came slowly.

40 years later, CRM is checked just like stick and rudder skills everytime professional airmen undergo training, or a linecheck.  CRM is an incredible safety tool.

Seeing the other guy in the cockpit as a resource instead of a pain-in-the-ass is a skill that comes easily to some, but can be learned by anyone.

 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Mooneymite

[201er]

1 hour ago, chrisk said:

I've seen several of your videos where it looks like you have made some really nice landings.  

Didn't really think about the stall warning that much on landing. I only pay attention to it on takeoff. And before Peter pokes his nose in, I'm talking about on landing once over the runway!

The first aircraft I learned to fly were gliders so it was all just stick, rudder, and pitch. You get them down in ground effect and float them out till the wing no longer flies. Then the first airplane I learned in was J3 cub. You land that with the stick in your crotch.

i love landing the Mooney with some people in the back, then it really touches nice on the mains and rides them till the nose comes down.

[Bob]

A few weeks ago, I was on the other side of this discussion.  We departed 400 overcast, 2.5hr flight and landed 600 overcast.  I was the Pic in my plane.  The passenger/copilot was a 150hr PP with enough instrument training to finish his Instrument checkride in a few days.

Since I had the Instrument rating and he was instrument training, I felt that I should share things that were not 100%, things I should have done better.  There were about 3 items that I told him I did not like and felt I needed to improve upon. While I did avoided being overcritical of myself.  His response was "Bob, we are not professional pilots"!

It caught me by surprise and I did not know what to say.  Giving a pilot a "pass" for performance weaknesses or slop, I don't agree with. 

I am not in IMC to not be a professional pilot!

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

I always welcome the opportunity to have other pilots in my right seat. It seems that I always learn something even if they are much lower time pilots than I.

On a related note, and just a little "tongue in cheek", my younger brother who is a long time Southwest Captain says that the worst FO's he flies with often turn out to be ex-fighter pilots. The likely reason being, they've spent a career flying solo, where bad habits grow and solidify without any criticism or feedback.

[midlifeflyer]

6 minutes ago, Bob said:

A few weeks ago, I was on the other side of this discussion.  We departed 400 overcast, 2.5hr flight and landed 600 overcast.  I was the Pic in my plane.  The passenger/copilot was a 150hr PP with enough instrument training to finish his Instrument checkride in a few days.

Since I had the Instrument rating and he was instrument training, I felt that I should share things that were not 100%, things I should have done better.  There were about 3 items that I told him I did not like and felt I needed to improve upon. While I did avoided being overcritical of myself.  His response was "Bob, we are not professional pilots"!

It caught me by surprise and I did not know what to say.  Giving a pilot a "pass" for performance weaknesses or slop, I don't agree with. 

I am not in IMC to not be a professional pilot!

 

 

Your goal is admirable. It's too bad the other pilot suggested giving yourself a pass. Disregard it.

This may be more a propos of the discussion starting up on personal minimums but your story leads me to put it here.

About two years ago I went to an NBAA (National Business Aircraft Association) seminar. It was talking about SOPs and other things pilots can do to improve their proficiency. And this was very much directed to the small business owner flying a light single or twin, not to a bizjet. It was based on a form from the NBAA called "Light Business Airplane Flight Operations Manual Template."

One of the things that I really liked was the recommendation for a formal self-debriefing. I haven't been as good about it as I should be, but the idea is, shortly after a flight, take a moment to write down what you did especially well and areas where you might improve. It could be anything from deciding verbal call-outs would be better than a silent flow/checklist and monitoring you progress on that to "I should have picked up the ATIS earlier and briefed the approach when I was less busy," to notes of what to review with your CFI on your next FR or IPC. 

Writing it down tends to formalize it for ourselves and give us something to review.

 

[Yetti]

Red ball thank you

[wishboneash]

On 4/1/2016 at 7:44 PM, M20Doc said:

In my experience pilots make some of the worst passengers, they talk a lot when they should know better. There are some who I would not allow to fly my wife or children, then there are others who I would only fly with if I am in the right seat and able to beat them unconscious should the need arise.

I don't mind if they dial up a frequency in the stand by or show me a feature on my avionics which I don't know about

Lately I've been flying with our local pilots group, it's a real eye opener seeing them operate their planes.  Sadly in Canada we don't have the BFR flight test that you have, we are able to qualify by attending some BS seminars.  

Clarence

There are some car drivers who I feel uncomfortable sitting in the right seat with!

Bad communication on the radio is the first sign.

[Marauder]

On 4/1/2016 at 7:44 PM, M20Doc said: In my experience pilots make some of the worst passengers, they talk a lot when they should know better. There are some who I would not allow to fly my wife or children, then there are others who I would only fly with if I am in the right seat and able to beat them unconscious should the need arise.

I don't mind if they dial up a frequency in the stand by or show me a feature on my avionics which I don't know about

Lately I've been flying with our local pilots group, it's a real eye opener seeing them operate their planes.  Sadly in Canada we don't have the BFR flight test that you have, we are able to qualify by attending some BS seminars.  

Clarence

There are some car drivers who I feel uncomfortable sitting in the right seat with!

Bad communication on the radio is the first sign.

The one that gets me is when they don't use their call sign to answer the controller.

[N33GG]

On April 1, 2016 at 11:21 PM, gsengle said:

But my question, which no one has tried to answer, is if you do want to fly as a 2 person crew, what is a good division of responsibilities?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It really depends on what aircraft you are flying, and what skill/experience level is present in each seat.  Clearly, airline and company pilots have most of this defined.  For the rest of us, it is wide open.

When I am riding in right seat, I usually just ask the pilot if there is anything they would like me to do or help take care of.  It might be a simple as setting transponder codes to operating the pressure control system in a more complex twin.  Whatever they ask for, I do my best to get the job done.  If I am left seat with a fellow pilot in the right seat, I usually ask casually what they would be comfortable with or like to do regarding the flight.  I try to avoid ego based briefings or commands.  A comfortable environment promotes better cooperation, and safety of flight, IMHO.  It can be relaxed, while at the same time still being very professional, serious, and competent.  

If I am flying with another pilot, and see something that is very wrong, I try to give help without being critical or confrontational.  Don't get me wrong, with my background and experience level, if the safety of flight is in question, I will take the controls away from whomever, regardless of which seat I am occupying.  But with the right communication, such action is usually unnecessary.  If I really have a dispute or concern with the other pilot that might become confrontational, I save it for later on the ground.  No need to get into a debate in the cockpit while there is flying to be tended to.  Thoughtful discussion and potentially differences of opinion can wait.

Park you ego before getting into the cockpit.  Before you think about unloading on a fellow pilot for doing something stupid, remember that you have been stupid too.  We all get nervous with another pilot on board, regardless of whether they are more or less experienced than we are. The only time in my pilot life that I pulled the mixture back, instead of the prop, right after takeoff, was with an FAA inspector in the right seat.  I was nervous, no question about it.  The engine almost died, and I wanted to die!  The inspector calmly reassured me that he was just another guy, and there was no need to be nervous.  His calm action totally put me at ease, and the rest of the flight went great.  If he had chewed me out, or acted incredulous that I was such an idiot, the flight would have only gotten worse.  I learned a lot from his cool communication, and try to be that guy.

All for what it is worth.  

[Oscar Avalle]

54 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

An interesting thing has popped out of this thread for me, which is GUMPS.  I use BUMPFC (as well as a checklist) and in FINAL as a final check RED BLUE GREEN.  

BUMFPC works for piston  aircraft, i.e. Brakes, Undercarriage, Mixture, Propellor, Fuel pump, Carbheat/cowl flaps.  Red Blue Green, on final checks you have the mixture rich,  the prop is fully fine and the wheels are down.

i never switch tanks before landing as I know the fuel that is feeding the engine at the moment works.

So how does that work for you guys that uses GUMPS?  

Andrew

Andrew, I use GUMPS. Gas: check fuel tank (unless tank is below 1/4 I don't switch tanks). Undercarriage: I have a Green (only one light in my M20C). Mixture: rich, Prop: forward and safety (fuel pump, carb heat and lights).

 

[Oscar Avalle]

On 4/1/2016 at 0:21 AM, gsengle said:

But my question, which no one has tried to answer, is if you do want to fly as a 2 person crew, what is a good division of responsibilities?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The short answer is whatever works for both, but in particular for the PIC. The problem is we don't go through CRM training. So we really don't know (normally) how to share our tasks in a cockpit. Let's not forget that CRM is a major subject in professional airline training. So normally, if I fly with somebody who I don't know well, I prefer to manage everything myself, including radios. However, if I the right seater offers to do the radios I normally agree and see how it goes. You learn a lot about the other pilot from how he handles communications.

[Eddie Mooney]

This is not at all a comment on the OP or anyone else here. But in my experience many (not all by any means) pilots have a self-image of being “no nonsense” types who pride themselves on their (perceived) competence rather than their interpersonal skills. So they devote their energy to reinforcing the former at the expense of the latter. 

And they often overestimate their own relative competence, stridently assuming that their way is the “right” way.

 

Both of these dynamics combine to inspire a prioritization of feeling like the/an alpha in the room (or cockpit) even if it means they rub people the wrong way. Most pilots who ARE like this aren’t blatant about it, mind you; they smooth the edges of it a bit but the tendency is still obvious. 

 

I avoid flying with these people. Sure, they may teach me something, but that comes with the cost of bad energy in the cockpit; and why tolerate that when I can fly with people who can teach me things (and who are willing to learn from me at the same time) while doing it in a measured and humble way?

 

Energy in the cockpit matters, notwithstanding the fact that many pilots with the aforementioned personality type would like to dismiss such concerns as too touchy-feely. 

[Mooneymite]

Regardless of how competent/incompetent the "other" guy/gal is, we can treat them as a resource.  An extra set of eyes looking for traffic is a valuable asset.  If the person is not a pilot, asking them to make sure I put the gear down prior to landing can't hurt!  There are lots of tasks that can be shared...to everyone's advantage.

I've seen crews where the captain has so belittled the co-pilot with the "I am the captain" crap that the co-pilot would probably happily watch him land gear up without saying a word!  That is not a safe cockpit...or a friendly one, either.

Make the other guy into a valuable resource. It may take some creativity, but I think it's worth it.

[gsxrpilot]

I got to ride right seat with SuperCop yesterday in his very recently acquired Mooney M20C.  There were a number of things he did differently then I do, but he's a very fine pilot and nothing was dangerous that I saw. There were some items where he asked my opinion and so I gave it to him, but if not asked, there's no reason to bring it up.

I thoroughly enjoyed the ride and he's got a really nice C model. I believe it was passed over by a couple of other members here who were looking for a C and after riding in it, I can't understand why. It's nicer in all the ways that matter to me, then most early model Mooney's I've seen. I think James is gonna be real happy with this bird for a long time.

BTW for someone who's been flying a Cherokee with the Hershey bar wing for years, James has seamlessly and rapidly transitioned to the laminar flow wing of the Mooney. His landing was super smooth and fully under control.

[Supercop0184]

I got to ride right seat with SuperCop yesterday in his very recently acquired Mooney M20C.  There were a number of things he did differently then I do, but he's a very fine pilot and nothing was dangerous that I saw. There were some items where he asked my opinion and so I gave it to him, but if not asked, there's no reason to bring it up.

I thoroughly enjoyed the ride and he's got a really nice C model. I believe it was passed over by a couple of other members here who were looking for a C and after riding in it, I can't understand why. It's nicer in all the ways that matter to me, then most early model Mooney's I've seen. I think James is gonna be real happy with this bird for a long time.

BTW for someone who's been flying a Cherokee with the Hershey bar wing for years, James has seamlessly and rapidly transitioned to the laminar flow wing of the Mooney. His landing was super smooth and fully under control.

Thanks Paul! The pleasure was all mine! Paul you are much more experienced in this bird and in your ticket, flying with you was very relaxed AND I formative. These are such amazing airplanes and I am always looking forward to hone my mooney skills. Can't wait to do it some more.

I've run into this issue before as well on both sides of the coin. In my profession, safety is paramount. Doing things over and over to build muscle memory is the key to survival in an emergency situation. This doesn't necessarily only pertain to emergency situations however. Muscle memory in your checklists, your routines, your flow. Everything can be done to build that muscle memory. My cousin was a marine fighter pilot, and retired American Airlines captain.

Not only does he ride with me in the front seat, but has also been a passenger in the back a couple of times. He and I give each other a hard time about a lot of things, but he never criticizes the way I fly. He's one of the few that I would allow to do anything in my airplane, however he lets me fly when I'm the pilot in command he knows that I'm in charge of aircraft. There have been times when entering the pattern, I'd ask him for the first notch flaps, to which he quickly abided, but he doesn't touch my panel unless I ask him too.

Then on the opposite end, I have a friend who is an instructor, and is very corrective about anything different than the way HE does it. He says that even though I'm in charge, or pilot in command, if something were to happen he would be held responsible because he has a higher rating than I do. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but I sure don't like people like that flying right seat. It takes the fun away, he second guessing something that I have put so much time and interest into.

There's my two cents, for what it's worth.

Paul by the way, looks like in gonna go ahead and get the Avidyne! I just can't refuse the deal at the moment.

[MyNameIsNobody]

11 hours ago, Eddie Mooney said:

This is not at all a comment on the OP or anyone else here. But in my experience many (not all by any means) pilots have a self-image of being “no nonsense” types who pride themselves on their (perceived) competence rather than their interpersonal skills. So they devote their energy to reinforcing the former at the expense of the latter. 

And they often overestimate their own relative competence, stridently assuming that their way is the “right” way.

 

Both of these dynamics combine to inspire a prioritization of feeling like the/an alpha in the room (or cockpit) even if it means they rub people the wrong way. Most pilots who ARE like this aren’t blatant about it, mind you; they smooth the edges of it a bit but the tendency is still obvious. 

 

I avoid flying with these people. Sure, they may teach me something, but that comes with the cost of bad energy in the cockpit; and why tolerate that when I can fly with people who can teach me things (and who are willing to learn from me at the same time) while doing it in a measured and humble way?

 

Energy in the cockpit matters, notwithstanding the fact that many pilots with the aforementioned personality type would like to dismiss such concerns as too touchy-feely. 

"That's what Ronnie says"

 

[Browncbr1]

I'm glad this topic was brought up because it makes me realize what an a$$ I must have been in the past when riding in the right seat.  

[carusoam]

SuperCop's odd back seater...  Could be an OWT or something that has been used by CFIs...

PIC is usually discussed before the flight starts. Relying on the guy next to you because he has a higher rating would not be possible.  This would be true if you hired him for being a primary flight instructor, but that comes with a few things attached as well.  That Wouldn't work if he was just trying to go for a ride while being ill, tired, or incapacitated by being human.  What if he just needed a ride and was really tired or had a beer, four hours ago?

You can fly as the PIC and receive training from a CFII.  If you have a gear up landing while training for your IR, I don't think your CFII is directly responsible for that based on his rating.  You basically need to know who is in charge to be able to make sure your insurance covers your loss.  Assuming your buddy's insurance is going to cover your loss doesn't sound like a very strong argument.

PP's opinion of how insurance works.  Contact your insurance co. for how you's works...

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

SuperCop's odd back seater...  Could be an OWT or something that has been used by CFIs...

Ever since I heard this one back in the early 1990s I've benn asking for verifiable stories. No takers so far.

Independently, I found exactly one. In that one some friends were going somewhere together. The pilot was a VFR only private pilot. Conditions were marginal VFR and the attitude indicator was inop. The pilot wanted to scrub the flight, but the CFI/passenger convinced the pilot it would be ok.

It wasn't. As I recall, there was no enforcement action since none survived. But the NTSB listed the cfi's actions as a cause of the accident.

Some  take that as proof a CFI is always responsible. I take it as proof that if you act like a jerk...

And, yes the concept that the FAA goes after the highest certificate on board, with no regard to what actuall happened on the flight, is a myth.

[PTK]

Let's see...VFR only pilot launching into marginal VFR with an inop AI and a CFI urging him to go!  That's a good one! You just can't make this stuff up!

I propose a change in how we train pilots. We should do away with the VFR/IFR distinction. All pilots should be trained on instruments and graduate with an IR. Period. 

[steingar]

The OP would probably hate me.  I don't fly to the Commercial standards, why should I?  I'm an amateur!  I do this for fun.  I drift all over the place in heading an altitude.  I fly the magenta line of death all the time, lazy thing I am.

I do however land the first 1500 feet of the runway with a full stall, and if I don't I give myself hell.