737 nervous passenger landing guide

[wishboneash]

On AvWeb. Now one for the Mooney!

 

[ArtVandelay]

I would have skipped the reverse thrusters, etc.. Can a 737 stop on a 10000' runway just using brakes?

[C-GHIJ]

All seems so easy.........why wouldn't you use the ILS   Better than having a newbie try and hand fly a 737.

[N201MKTurbo]

I have a friend who used to own part of a Citation 500 without thrust reversers. You could stop it, but it went through brakes like crazy. You can't repair the brakes, you order a whole brake assembly. 

We calculated it used up $20 worth of brakes on every landing. Thrust reversers are good! They aren't hard to use, pull the handles back as soon as the nose wheel hits the ground and put them away at 60 KTS and get on the wheel brakes.

[Bob - S50]

19 hours ago, C-GHIJ said:

All seems so easy.........why wouldn't you use the ILS   Better than having a newbie try and hand fly a 737.

There are lots of possibilities.  It all depends on how knowledgeable the person is who is talking them down, how much time they have, and the mental state of the new pilot.  Given the ideal situation you could MAYBE talk them through loading an ILS into the FMS and setting up autoland and autobrakes.  If they could do that then the plane could land itself and come to a stop on the runway (or at least almost to a stop).  Problem is you would need someone with all that knowledge at the approach control facility.  Not likely to happen unless they are talking to approach control at a 'pilot base' of the airline that owns the plane (every airline has a slightly different cockpit).

Trouble is, in order to save fuel (read money), airlines put on just enough gas to get to the destination with the legal minimum amount of gas plus some 'contingency' fuel.  How much extra fuel depends on the airport, day of the week, time of day, weather, and the individual airline.  It could be as little as 20 minutes of extra or a couple hours if they were 'tankering' fuel.

When I transitioned from the DC9 (20 years worth) to the 757/767, they gave me 2 days of training just to learn the basics of the FMS.  Even being a pilot, I still didn't fully understand the system until I'd been using it for awhile.  Could be rather difficult, but not impossible, to talk a non-pilot through loading an ILS into the system.

Or if you ever saw the Jerry Seinfeld episode with Elaine and her boyfriend (Matt Damon), just have them push the 'land' button.

[1964-M20E]

Interesting but you would need both pilots to be incapacitated and excluding 9-11 I think that it's an extremely rare happening if ever.  Then the order of questions would be.

1. Do you have another airline pilot hitching a ride?

2. Do we have any airplane pilots on board?

3. Do we have any pilots on board?

4. Do we have any avid flight simulator pilots on board?

5. Do we have any priests, reverends or ministers on board?

6. Do we have any undertakers on board?

 

Finally do the airlines spend any time in training the flight attendants on the bare minimums of the cockpit and flying for such a case?

 

 

[flyboy0681]

For my 33rd birthday many years ago I rented time in a 727 simulator for an hour and half (years before 9/11). The instructor wanted to put me through a quick familiarization course but I asked not to, wanting to see if my knowledge could get me by. He started the engines and placed me at the foot of the runway at LAX and gave me the parameters to use for power. The takeoff went smoothly as did basic control . All of the approaches were visual and I did get it on the ground every time, but one landing sent the strut through the wing. Over the course of the 1.5 hours I conducted a dozen take off and landings and was surprised at how easy it all was. Every few years I pull out the video from that session and stare at amazement.

[Marauder]

One more thing: in the next generation 737s (700/800s) the FMS knows your weight and will give you an approach reference speed.

Considering the variable loads I carry, I could use that feature!

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[Joe Zuffoletto]

1 hour ago, 1964-M20E said:

Finally do the airlines spend any time in training the flight attendants on the bare minimums of the cockpit and flying for such a case?

Only how to operate Otto Pilot.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I commandeered a 747 36,000' over Reno and safely landed it at SFO with minimal guidance from a 747 pilot. Nothing difficult about it at all.

BTW, this was in United's Denver simulator facility before 9/11.

[cliffy]

Give me any 12 yr old iphone kid and 3 hrs behind MS FlightSim and I'll let him do a full ILS to mins in a 737.  I'll bet he makes it fine. 727 was the best jet I flew, 757 was the most powerful (80,000 lbs of thrust, RRs)  and it flew like a glider. Didn't want to come down and the speed boards just rumbled in deference to the 727 boards. Pull the 727 boards and you come down like a bent manhole cover. 

We used to give our Check Airman candidates a dual engine failure at 15,000 ft over the ocean at LAX 20 miles out and make them do everything and land at LAX deadstick. They solo'd the 737 on that flight to show then they could do it as they might get stuck with a brick in  the right seat. Been there, done that. 

[1964-M20E]

Dead stick a 737  20 miles from 150 pretty cool I'd love to get time in a 737 simulator just to say I did and get the log book entry.

 

The only reason I ask about the flight attendants while totally different situation in many LEO operations the TFO (tactical flight officer) is trained to a least be able to land the helicopter should the need arise.  However, they are usually the only two on-board so options are limited.

 

 

[C-GHIJ]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

Considering the variable loads I carry, I could use that feature!

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I take it you mean your girlfriends....LOL

[bonal]

8 hours ago, daver328 said:

That's funny. 

 

No!!! and trust me, you don't want the flight attendants to try it anyways. (Sorry if I offended anyone, but you know it's true!)

 

My first 737 landing after passing a simulator ride ...  was at KSFO. I was a new First Officer flying with a check airman on IOE (Initial Operating Experience.) After a four plus hour flight: We did all the briefings for a charted visual to 28R, built all this stuff in the FMS ... and inside three miles from the airport (due to winds they "turned the airport around) tower turned us left for a right downwind to 01R, Asked if we still had airport, clear visual 1R , cleared to land. Whoop te do. Turned all that automation off, Landing gear down, flaps 15, flaps 30, before landing checklist, and ... Land. It's just a big 172. Easy to land. 

I have never seen SFO land on the 1s since? 

Doesn't happen too often but when they land the heavy's on the tens it's quite a show for the folks on the ground around mount Tam.

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, bonal said:

Doesn't happen too often but when they land the heavy's on the tens it's quite a show for the folks on the ground around mount Tam.

 

Ever seen the 8mm film of the Pan Am 747 that took off  from runway 01R at SFO in 1971 and hit the approach lights?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl_wXfSwRzM

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by flyboy0681

[carusoam]

The seventies seemed like modern times as they were unfolding.  The sheer number of things that didn't go as planned on this landing is amazing.

airplane accidents occurred annually, and it seemed to be normal.

flying around in a broken plane for two hours draining fuel.  Those passengers will never be the same people they were before the take-off...

Thanks for sharing that video/time capsule.

Best regards,

-a-

[chrisk]

Fun to consider, but I would be stuck on the other side of the 911 door!

[bradp]

On February 16, 2016 at 1:42 PM, daver328 said:

What will get you ... is descent planning and speed reductions. 

The recent accident in SFO by a foreign carrier is a perfect example ... and highlights the need for excellent training. Mediocre won't cut it. These jets can absolutely eat your lunch ... Many, many 737 pilots have had to go around or later acknowledge they probably should have gone around. High and fast ... is ok (not really) as long as you know where the lines are ... many times the controllers unknowingly put you there. 

That "stable approach concept" is a really good thing IMHO 

So just like a Mooney, then :-)

 

To provide a not so successful simulator counter example, my cousin, who flew CH-53Es, put me in their simulator last spring.  I could take off, move around, and hover okay but transitioning to hover to land was entirely different.  Couldn't get used to the sight picture at all, struck the tail rotor, etc.  Not pretty.  

[jetdriven]

On February 16, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Joe Zuffoletto said:

I commandeered a 747 36,000' over Reno and safely landed it at SFO with minimal guidance from a 747 pilot. Nothing difficult about it at all.

BTW, this was in United's Denver simulator facility before 9/11.

Being a genuine high school dropout and having formerly flown the 747 from the left seat, I gotta say the real thing is actually a little easier. 

[cliffy]

Decent planning was the key. In the 757 and a visual to 28 SFO you're doing your decent planning from the east side of the bay down near SJC, You needed 210 kts clean at 10 miles out and near the GS for a smooth transition to landing configuration. 20-30 kts faster or a 1000' higher at 10 miles and you might not get stable by 500'. It was a glider.

The 73 was easier. Draggier airframe and the boards worked better at slowing you. The 727 was a different world with its (wing disassembly) boards.  :-)