Alex's M20D (continuous thread)

[mpg]

19 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

Bad news, folks.

I went out for a run-up and the prop cable was REALLY hard to pull. Two hands and it would barely creep out. Prop dropped, and I had to force it back to the stop. Prop would not go back to 1900rpm. Increasing throttle sounded like I was starting a car in 3rd gear. Shut down and towed it back to the hangar. I noticed some oil on the firewall by the governor and wiped it all down. Started again, prop cable stiff as hell. Prop would not go back to 1900rpm. Shut it down again. Blade angle is wide open. Governor is covered in oil and there is a pool of oil underneath it. So we pull the governor, but the cable, connected to nothing, is still hard as hell. IA is suggesting sending the gov out for IRAN/reseal only and putting in a new prop cable. It seems like we have two symptoms, I just don't see how they are connected. I was thinking it was a binding cable, but with the cowl off for ground run, we can see the little flywheel moving back and forth when forcing the prop cable out and in.

 

follow the advise given,,, its all good.

I thought this kind of thing may happen,,  it is minor!

More thoughts will be coming to you.

 

[DXB]

I'm curious what the expected service life of the prop governor is - do these things have a TBO that should be observed? Do they usually get done at the same time as the engine?  Mine is original 1967 and I think was overhauled once in 1996, and my cable is mid 70's vintage. Although everything seems to work ok right now,  I am bracing for it to malfunction.   Is it crazy to replace a working prop governor as "preventive maintenance?"  I know that's a bit of a dirty word for Mike Busch, but I don't know that I'd particularly enjoy having Alex's experience while in the air, although I doubt it would do me in.   

When dealing with a 50 year old piece of hardware, it may be worth the extra 1 amu to replace with a lighter more modern design:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/pcu5000governorshart.php

[Raptor05121]

I'm not exactly sure what happened with mine. I was under the assumption it would fail in high RPM. (In which case, it probably would have been okay for a ferry flight to get back to the mechanic?). 

I wish I could go lighter and newer, but I'm licking my wounds from annual. Just need to get back airworthy for more time. I am looking forward to the new prop cable. I do not like the massive one I have now.

[Browncbr1]

When you put the gov back on, make sure you install the metal shim together with the gasket.  There was a thread on here recently with Piolito and someone else about bad leaks happening otherwise and that it would come from around the studs.  

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

I'm not exactly sure what happened with mine. I was under the assumption it would fail in high RPM. (In which case, it probably would have been okay for a ferry flight to get back to the mechanic?). 

I wish I could go lighter and newer, but I'm licking my wounds from annual. Just need to get back airworthy for more time. I am looking forward to the new prop cable. I do not like the massive one I have now.

It does fail to high RPM with a drop in oil pressure (i.e., the pump fails or seals fail).  Your governor sounds like it had an internal, mechanical failure that froze the prop in coarse pitch.

Getting a cable from McFarlane will save you about $35 over Don Maxwell or LASAR.  You send McFarlane the dimensions and then let them know over the phone what type airplane it is for and they will send you the right one.  Honestly, you should check the prices and probably just get one from DMax.

[carusoam]

For Dev's question...

TBO for the gov, no, I don't believe so...  but, it is continuously in motion, the gear pump is continuously spinning and the The fly weights are in continuous sliding and spinning motion.

The whole thing is bathed in oil, but wear is an on-going aging problem.  Check your logs to see what care it has received...

If it has several thousand hours already, getting a new one is in the expensive, but not killer expensive zone.  In other words, expensive for a young buck, with kids and a house payment, not so bad for the mid stream guy who's kids are out of college...

For the guy who wonders if the new prop came with an updated gov... no, you would remember the expense and would have asked 'is that necessary....?'

If you just added a top prop to get the magic 310hp, you probably sent your gov out to have a spring replaced to provide the extra 200rpm and did something with your tach to move it's redline from 2500 to 2700...

the regular gov fails to max rpm... my C's failed, it's gov got iran'd...  the failure didn't go away.  The real problem was the aluminum plug at the end of the shaft fell out letting oilP escape back to the sump.  No pressure = high rpm...  a Missile's Gov fails to low RPM.  Great for glide ratio. Terrible for go around...

So as long as the prop rpm is well controlled, there doesn't seem to be a reason to OH a perfectly good device.

flying around with the prop on the high rpm stops is generally a bad idea.  It is susceptable to rpm exceeding redline.  Rpm will be controlled with MP.  Of course , max MP will now exceed redline.  Staying below redline, is not max MP.  Now you don't know how much power you are producing, it is somewhere less than 100%.  Read up on exceed rpm redline, how long and by how much.  Exceed the limits is grounds for engine OH.  It is that serious...

Consult with Cody our prop guy for further details.

Consult with your mechanic if you need to fly the plane with the prop stuck at high rpm...

The prop stuck at low rpm might not get off the ground before you run out of runway.  The ICP will be incredibly high.  The chance of creating a worse engine problem has increased with this less than good idea...

All PP ideas, not a mechanic. Seek professional advice...

Best regards,

-a-

[Raptor05121]

On 11/24/2016 at 10:04 AM, Hyett6420 said:

 

Alex and I should meet up at an Oshkosh and exchange notes. . 

1

I'll be there!

[Raptor05121]

I'm sending it off to the place that did the O/H last. I told them I want IRAN only as I believe its a seal, he said in which case if its seal-only, its around $225. It's going into the mail tonight. 

[Raptor05121]

2 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

What on earth does IRAN mean?  Ive tried to work it out but i am stumped to be honest.  

Inspect, Replace As Necessary.

Basically, instead of sending something out and replacing parts "just because" that is an Overhaul, only doing in IRAN replaces stuff that only needs replacing and leaves everything else alone.

Hartzell says for an Overhaul, replace parts A, B, C, D, E, F, and G; regardless of condition. But said shop opens up and finds parts A, C, D, and F to spec and within tolerance. Why replace them? Shop only replaces B, E, and G, making the part like new again, for much less money.

If you haven't already, go watch Mike Busch's videos on maintenance. They are an eye-opener. (Available from EAA's online webinar database).

[MB65E]

On November 29, 2016 at 11:10 AM, Raptor05121 said:

Inspect, Replace As Necessary.

Basically, instead of sending something out and replacing parts "just because" that is an Overhaul, only doing in IRAN replaces stuff that only needs replacing and leaves everything else alone.

Hartzell says for an Overhaul, replace parts A, B, C, D, E, F, and G; regardless of condition. But said shop opens up and finds parts A, C, D, and F to spec and within tolerance. Why replace them? Shop only replaces B, E, and G, making the part like new again, for much less money.

If you haven't already, go watch Mike Busch's videos on maintenance. They are an eye-opener. (Available from EAA's online webinar database).

How did your governor turn out?

-Matt

[Raptor05121]

It arrived at the shop today. He said one-day turnaround, so I might have it back in my hands by Tuesday. I ordered an ACS prop control cable. $90 and we are just going to do a 337 on it. I also am sending out my transponder for refurbishment. So next Saturday's EAA flyout should have me straggling in it. 

[cctsurf]

9 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

I ordered an ACS prop control cable. $90 and we are just going to do a 337 on it.

$90?  Where do I sign up?  I just did a throttle cable for $500 plus!

Did you go directly through ACS or was it through a supplier (Aircraft Spruce)?  I need a prop cable and a mixture cable wouldn't go amiss...  It would be nice to not break the bank on these stupid cables.  Does ACS help with the 337?

Thanks!

[Raptor05121]

This is what I ordered:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/a1760.php

My old cable is 44", so I ordered a 48" and I think we will be able to snake it to make up for the extra 4". I've never done a 337 before but my IA says its easy to do with the local FSDO, and is a common thing to do with old control cables.

I'm looking forward to having a new, blue knob and teflon cable. The old one was hard as hell to move and the knob was so big my knuckles would hit the co-pilot's yoke when twisting it. 

[cctsurf]

THANKS!  I'll be watching how the install goes.

Like many I've heard about here, my old cable is original (I think we figured out that yours was as well), and the vernier knob spins freely...  I have an appropriate rubber band to hold it in place, but I'd much rather have a proper fix.  I was scraping around the pennies, nickels and dimes and thought I could do one cable this annual...  Sounds like it might be the remaining 2 that I don't like.

[Raptor05121]

I hear you. My cowl flaps are a press-to-depress push-pull and the press button doesnt hold. If I open the flaps, when I start the engine the airflow will close them partly. So I plan on changing that out as well. I would also like to do my mixture so I can add a vernier, but I'll do that when the Carb needs work.

[Yetti]

and people say they don't like the throttle quadrant with the friction setting.

[cctsurf]

3 hours ago, Yetti said:

and people say they don't like the throttle quadrant with the friction setting.

I kinda like my quadrant on my Cherokee...  If it didn't take up half of the mooney interior and make it impossible to have the manual gear, I wouldn't mind having a quadrant.  Heck, I would even kinda hanker for a J model if I could get one with manual gear.

[N6758N]

On 12/2/2016 at 0:40 AM, cctsurf said:

$90?  Where do I sign up?  I just did a throttle cable for $500 plus!

Did you go directly through ACS or was it through a supplier (Aircraft Spruce)?  I need a prop cable and a mixture cable wouldn't go amiss...  It would be nice to not break the bank on these stupid cables.  Does ACS help with the 337?

Thanks!

Be careful about doing this, first off, Mcfarlane's quality is much better than ACS> Alex, I'm not sure if you're IA explained owner produced parts to you, but they should be identical in specifications and materials to the original part...You cannot simply buy a similar part and install it via 337, without a field approval at least, and those are very hard to come by these days. The legal way to do this is either send your old cable to Mcfarlane, or fill out their cable spec sheet with all the proper dimensions and have them build you a new one. I wish it was as easy as bolting any part you wanted on and filling out a 337.

[MB65E]

Your cowl flap cable is probably missing it's locking check ball. Disconnect it from the cowl flaps, then pull out the inner knob with the cable. Be careful and catch the ball if it pops out. If the ball falls out, then the cable is worn and needs replacment. If you don't see a ball, find a ball and reinstall. 

-Matt

[Brian_tii]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 2:33 PM, DXB said:

I'm curious what the expected service life of the prop governor is - do these things have a TBO that should be observed? Do they usually get done at the same time as the engine?  Mine is original 1967 and I think was overhauled once in 1996, and my cable is mid 70's vintage. Although everything seems to work ok right now,  I am bracing for it to malfunction.   Is it crazy to replace a working prop governor as "preventive maintenance?"  I know that's a bit of a dirty word for Mike Busch, but I don't know that I'd particularly enjoy having Alex's experience while in the air, although I doubt it would do me in.   

When dealing with a 50 year old piece of hardware, it may be worth the extra 1 amu to replace with a lighter more modern design:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/pcu5000governorshart.php

Not sure what brand you have, but our Cirrus uses a Woodward with some crazy low recommended tbo. I want to say about 500 hours. Most do it with an engine or prop overhaul. Ours went to engine tbo (2000hours) and was overhauled when we replaced the engine. It did have parts that were worn out and replaced. I wouldnt go forever without an overhaul or at least inspect and reseal.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Brian_tii

[Raptor05121]

On 12/5/2016 at 1:57 PM, N6758N said:

Be careful about doing this, first off, Mcfarlane's quality is much better than ACS> Alex, I'm not sure if you're IA explained owner produced parts to you, but they should be identical in specifications and materials to the original part...You cannot simply buy a similar part and install it via 337, without a field approval at least, and those are very hard to come by these days. The legal way to do this is either send your old cable to Mcfarlane, or fill out their cable spec sheet with all the proper dimensions and have them build you a new one. I wish it was as easy as bolting any part you wanted on and filling out a 337.

 

 

 

 

I'm doing as my IA has instructed me. He always recommends ACS and has told me the process he uses is kosher with the FAA. And I believe him, he is strict about what his signature goes on. If I feel like we're going down a route that would return sub-quality parts or a process that is not legal, I won't proceed. We will see what happens.

On 11/24/2016 at 2:33 PM, DXB said:

I'm curious what the expected service life of the prop governor is - do these things have a TBO that should be observed? Do they usually get done at the same time as the engine?  Mine is original 1967 and I think was overhauled once in 1996, and my cable is mid 70's vintage. Although everything seems to work ok right now,  I am bracing for it to malfunction.   Is it crazy to replace a working prop governor as "preventive maintenance?"  I know that's a bit of a dirty word for Mike Busch, but I don't know that I'd particularly enjoy having Alex's experience while in the air, although I doubt it would do me in.   

When dealing with a 50 year old piece of hardware, it may be worth the extra 1 amu to replace with a lighter more modern design:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/pcu5000governorshart.php

 

 

 

 

From what the shop says, they are TBO with the engine (2000hrs). Mine was last O/H in 2005 with the engine, so ~650 hours. The shop guy even said that is way too young to overhaul it so he recommended an IRAN, of which I wanted before I called him anyway.

[Raptor05121]

Air Prop Specialists from Marianna called about my governor. He put it on the test bed and the problem was immediate: the main seal has broken a chunk off and was pissing oil everywhere. He replaced the seals and the rest of the unit looked in great shape. It's on its way back. $200

My King KT-76A Transponder was sent out for diagnosis by Dan French of Flight Control Services in Milton, FL. He called yesterday and told me the problem I was having (no orange light on TEST or IDENT mode) is not replicating for him. He says the test stand is giving him the orange light and the problem must be a loose pin on my rack or wiring problem on the plane. He did say, however, the unit was last serviced in 1981 and the transmitter was a full 2 kilocycles off frequency and down on power, so he re-aligned the unit and should give me a "nice bright return" on the scope. $120.

[bonal]

We just keep after it don't we

[Raptor05121]

8 minutes ago, bonal said:

We just keep after it don't we

I only managed to log 17 hours in the 6 days I had it airworthy. I'm still chomping at the bit. My girlfriend hasn't even gotten to go anywhere yet, so she's ready for a trip over to Flagler for some food on Hijackers.

[rbridges]

good news about the transponder and governor.  could have been a lot worse.