WAAS GPS

[Oscar Avalle]

Yes the writing is on the wall. VORs are going away more and more. Also GPS navigation is more stable and allows you to fly direct in areas where there are few VORs.

 

I was thinking the same way until the VOR approaches started getting replaced with GPS only approaches at the airports I flew to. My home airport is served only by a VOR approach and it is not a fun to fly, especially on the circle to land. I expect it to be replaced at some point as well.

 

 

 

 

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[Mooneymite]

15k to fly GPS approaches? Ridiculous. I'll just fly the ILS. The FAA and avionics manufacturers have gone batshit crazy.

 

 

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I have alreday paid for the WAAS upgrade, but when I  compare the cost of database updates against the number of actual IFR GPS approaches I do, the "per appraoch" cost approaches the "ridiculous".

Maybe I need to find a place with worse weather.

 

[gsengle]

Yes but it's priceless when you're otherwise stuck on top :-o

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[gsengle]

But yeah I use such an approach (outside of training) maybe 2x a year...

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[Bob_Belville]

Think of it, flight data, charts, as you do insurance. You choose to pay for it but flying is better if you do not have to use it. 

[rbridges]

 

I was thinking the same way until the VOR approaches started getting replaced with GPS only approaches at the airports I flew to. My home airport is served only by a VOR approach and it is not a fun to fly, especially on the circle to land. I expect it to be replaced at some point as well.

 

 

 

 

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I agree.  I flew to a small airport in Augusta last weekend.  The only approaches they have are NDB, VOR and GPS.  

[ryoder]

It's just ridiculous.  Lets say I am flying back to ZPH IFR and its down to minimums for the GPS approach.  Wouldn't I rather fly the approach into a towered field with much better approach lighting and services like Lakeland which is a hop and a skip away from ZPH?  Flying ILS and VOR brings me into the larger airports where I feel safer.  And nothing beats ILS for accuracy.  We route GPS would be nice if it was inexpensive but it's not.  Once I get my ticket I'll see how well my old school dual vor setup with ILS and ADF holds up.

[gsengle]

Yeah I always go to the towered slightly larger field when I can, but I'm based at. 3100ft uncontrolled field with one GPS approach so getting home is the issue

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[Marauder]

It's just ridiculous.  Lets say I am flying back to ZPH IFR and its down to minimums for the GPS approach.  Wouldn't I rather fly the approach into a towered field with much better approach lighting and services like Lakeland which is a hop and a skip away from ZPH?  Flying ILS and VOR brings me into the larger airports where I feel safer.  And nothing beats ILS for accuracy.  We route GPS would be nice if it was inexpensive but it's not.  Once I get my ticket I'll see how well my old school dual vor setup with ILS and ADF holds up.

If you haven't had a chance to fly an LPV, give it a try. It is really impressive not just from the final approach guidance but also if you need to fly the full procedure. Yeah, it's expensive but what in aviation isn't?

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[LANCECASPER]

It's just ridiculous.  Lets say I am flying back to ZPH IFR and its down to minimums for the GPS approach.  Wouldn't I rather fly the approach into a towered field with much better approach lighting and services like Lakeland which is a hop and a skip away from ZPH?  Flying ILS and VOR brings me into the larger airports where I feel safer.  And nothing beats ILS for accuracy.  We route GPS would be nice if it was inexpensive but it's not.  Once I get my ticket I'll see how well my old school dual vor setup with ILS and ADF holds up.

If I was you I think I'd put an "INOP" sticker on your ADF just before the checkride

[midlifeflyer]

It's just ridiculous.  Lets say I am flying back to ZPH IFR and its down to minimums for the GPS approach.  Wouldn't I rather fly the approach into a towered field with much better approach lighting and services like Lakeland which is a hop and a skip away from ZPH?  Flying ILS and VOR brings me into the larger airports where I feel safer.  And nothing beats ILS for accuracy.  We route GPS would be nice if it was inexpensive but it's not.  Once I get my ticket I'll see how well my old school dual vor setup with ILS and ADF holds up.

I'd rather fly into ZPH (been there) and have the accuracy and minimums of an LPV approach that is based on the same criteria and with similar accuracy and usually equivalent minimums as an ILS.

One might still prefer to go to Lakeland if things are really low since the approach minimums are 50-100' higher over there, but that has nothing to do with there being an ILS - the GPS LPV and ILS minimums at LAL are identical and, given a choice, many pilots would ask for the GPS approach even if the winds favored Runway 9 (definitely for the other LAL runways since that would be the only choice).

[Marauder]

I used to love ADF approaches. That's all we had in the Army's old OH-58As ... one ADF ... You could even navigate to towns using their AM radio stations ... remember flying on drill weekends in the guard and listening to the football games on ADF!

The later OH-58Cs had one VOR (no GS, no DME, no ADF - darn it NO FOOTBALL GAMES!)

Then later on in the guard we had the early UH-1s - one ADF and one VOR receiver. (No DME, no GS, but on the ADF you could hear FOOTBALL GAMES! .. )

Previous owner had already removed the ADF from our M20C ... so sad!

(Just how many other instruments let you navigate and LISTEN TO FOOTBALL GAMES? Sorry ole' GARMIN GPS's can't do it!)

I'll just have to learn how to do those GPS approaches with our new 430W ... I'm out of options! 

You brought back some old memories. I used to fly back and forth on weekends to WNY as my folks were getting older. Had to be back to work on Mondays and would listen to the Buffalo Bills games on "550 on my AM dial" on the trip back Sunday afternoon.

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[Bob_Belville]

(Just how many other instruments let you navigate and LISTEN TO FOOTBALL GAMES? Sorry ole' GARMIN GPS's can't do it!)

I used to listen to navigate toward AM radio on my ADF 30 years ago!

Now I have Sirius/XM radio coming through a GPS 696. Listen to jazz, or CNBC or a ballgame through the Audio Panel, auto mutes when anything else comes on. (Subscription is pretty cheap piggybacking on a package for the car.)

[Mooneymite]

 

Another use for the old ADF?

"Back in the day"....we'd fly P-3's 1000 miles out from land, and when we came back 12 hours later, the radar was often inop.  To penetrate the line of thunderstorms that invariable lurked over the coastline we'd use the ADF and steer where the needle wasn't pointing.

Primitive, but in a pinch, you use what you have.

[Bob_Belville]

 

Another use for the old ADF?

"Back in the day"....we'd fly P-3's 1000 miles out from land, and when we came back 12 hours later, the radar was often inop.  To penetrate the line of thunderstorms that invariable lurked over the coastline we'd use the ADF and steer where the needle wasn't pointing.

Primitive, but in a pinch, you use what you have.

Yeah! That's exactly what Paul Ryan believed could be plotted.

[1964-M20E]

 

Another use for the old ADF?

"Back in the day"....we'd fly P-3's 1000 miles out from land, and when we came back 12 hours later, the radar was often inop.  To penetrate the line of thunderstorms that invariable lurked over the coastline we'd use the ADF and steer where the needle wasn't pointing.

Primitive, but in a pinch, you use what you have.

??

 

I never heard of this but interesting.  How did you do it?

 

 

[midlifeflyer]

 

Another use for the old ADF?

"Back in the day"....we'd fly P-3's 1000 miles out from land, and when we came back 12 hours later, the radar was often inop.  To penetrate the line of thunderstorms that invariable lurked over the coastline we'd use the ADF and steer where the needle wasn't pointing.

Primitive, but in a pinch, you use what you have.

There's a very powerful AM radio station just on the southeastern edge of the Class D airspace at Centennial south of Denver (KAPA). In addition to the obvios landmark value of a 675' tower, its strong signal reportedly still reaches some 38 states on a clear night and we used to use it to navigate home from far away (while listening to the broncos, of course!!).

[Mooneymite]

??

 

I never heard of this but interesting.  How did you do it?

 

 

Been a long time, but as I recall, we'd go to either the high, or low end of the tuning range where there weren't many (any?) broadcast sources.  The needle would generally point to storm cells.....or, at least that was the theory.  We'd steer to areas the needle didn't point.  Without radar and during EMCON (we couldn't even turn on our radio altimeters!), there wasn't much else we could use.  Oh, if only we'd had XM weather and GPS back then!

We didn't die.  I'm not sure that was due to the ADF, or just the luck of the young and foolish.

Speaking of GPS and navigation in general, you don't know what fear is until you have to penetrate an ADIZ with nothing more than a 12 hour old DR because a cloud cover prevented a celestial fix and the thunderstorms prevented even one LOP from the LORAN.

For certain, God watches over the young and the foolish.

My son-in-law recently took me on a tour of the Navy's new P-8.  Slick!  It's got everything.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2015 by Mooneymite

[Gary0747]

if one does not want to do LPV approaches and pay the $800+ per year for the data bases can a 430W be installed to get the WAAS reciever but only purchase the non LPV databases for a significant annual subscription savings?

[gsengle]

It's that much? I remember it being cheaper for just a region

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[kortopates]

if one does not want to do LPV approaches and pay the $800+ per year for the data bases can a 430W be installed to get the WAAS reciever but only purchase the non LPV databases for a significant annual subscription savings?

It's not that much, look it up on Jepp's web site. I have dual America's for less than that. You could buy US only and maybe even less.

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[Cruiser]

I don't think there is any choice on databases. There are either WAAS or non-WAAS. 

My WAAS subscription for full USA on the GNS430W is $430/yr.

[gsengle]

It's 350/year, for east and central or west and central...

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[Gary0747]

I think Annual updates on my Garmin GNC300xl are less than half the $800+ for a GNS650 but maybe the $800 includes terrain?

Edited September 26, 2015 by Gary0747

[kshaw]

The STC for the KT-74 listed a couple of WAAS GPS units that were approved as input to the KT-74 in addition to the Garmins.  I would think that those would be much less expensive than the Garmin.