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Steve65E-NC
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Steve65E-NC Proficient

Steve65E-NC

Posted
Posted

Where is the best (least expensive overall) place to order a trip kit of charts.  I need 3 sectional, 3 low altitude and 5 approach plate booklets.  The best prices I have found have been around $7.50, $4.40 and $4.95.  However, at one place the shipping came to like $26.00 on a $60 order.  The problem seems to be with shipping the approach plate booklets.   Oh for the day when most fbos had a good inventory.  I purchased my first sectional around 1958 for $.25.  I know everyone is going electronic, but even then you might want paper backup.   Thanks.

midlifeflyer Grand Master

midlifeflyer

Posted
Posted

iPad & ForeFlight.

 

And thus endeth the story.

Exactly how does that end the story for someone who wants to continue to rely on paper charts? Or are you anti-paper for some reason the way some silly people are anti-electronic?

1964-M20E Grand Master

1964-M20E

Posted
Posted

I generally buy paper 2 or 3 times a year to use sections, low altitude and bound approach plates.  I have a chart subscription with my Ifly 720 which works really well.

 

I print my approach plates for my departure airport, my destination and my alternate airports before each flight so that  have a hard copy of the ones I know I will most likely use.  I keep the bound approach plates and if I need to divert I pull out the book cross check it to the plate in the Ifly and make any notes and then I have a hard copy in front of me and the geo referenced electronic version up as well.

 

Paper if I have a problem with the electronic version and the electronic version for enhanced situational awareness.

  • Like 1
N33GG Mentor

N33GG

Posted
Posted

Exactly how does that end the story for someone who wants to continue to rely on paper charts? Or are you anti-paper for some reason the way some silly people are anti-electronic?

Anti-paper?  Hardly.  I am in the timber business and raise trees for a living that are sold to paper mills to make all types of paper products, including paper charts.  At the grocery store, I always choose paper over plastic.  And when it comes going to the bathroom, there is nothing better than paper.

 

No, I'm not anti-paper.

 

I resisted and held on to my paper charts for a long time, and still occasionally have a few in my cockpit.  But the future is clear, and it is time to come to grips with the fact that paper charts are on their way out, and electronic charts are in. 

 

Thus endeth the story.

  • Like 1
Amelia Experienced

Amelia

Posted
Posted

It's not a cheap way to avoid paper charts. First you have to buy the overpriced iPad.

But as one who relied on paper for years, first resolving to keep up with Jepp filing, and second regretting it when I didn't, and third, going to US plates and charts, worrying what I might run into when my paper VFR charts had slipped to a bit out of date, and nobody had one for the area beyond my hometown Sectional, I think electronic flight bags are just super. And guess what: no shipping charge or UPS delays.

Updating is a matter of selecting "update" just before a flight. Unlike when I had to change alternate destinations on the missed, because I lacked the plates for the closest one just across the state line, I always have the current charts for 'yonder.' I never lived where there was a big pilot shop with a wide stock, so thinking far enough ahead to get the whole kit, sometimes two whole kits, if my trip would overlap the change, was a problem. Last minute Angel Flights were often not possible because, "all available information" wasn't.So now, I have an iPad, a newer iPad mini on the yoke, and a smart phone for backup. My presbyopia appreciates the zoom feature. Unfolding the next chart and refolding the last one in a Mooney cockpit isn't a problem. Switch the active runway when I'm on the approach to the old one? No problem. Swipe. There it is, and there we are.   Where's the weather? Over thataway. What's the frequency, the altitudes of that restricted area? Never mind having to find where on the margin that info is. For that matter, is anybody old enough to remember the challenge of looking up airports by airport name? In FAA wisdom, ATL approach plates were filed under not Atlanta, not Hartsfield, not even William B. Hartsfield International, but The. As in The William B. Hartsfield International Airport, Atlanta. With an EFB you can bring up any airport's approaches, departures, airport information, with a simple poke of the index finger.Are we there yet? That information to the tenth of a minute, is right before my eyes, So long, whiz wheel!

The sheer convenience, speed, volume and ease of access of  needed information of ANY of the top three or four EFBs is astonishing, and some of them are free. I can't imagine how I ever did without. Try it sometime.

  • Like 2
jlunseth Grand Master

jlunseth

Posted
Posted

My conversion to electronic charts came in the form of an emergency loss of oil pressure over Canada at 19k, needing to descend rapidly and through about 7,000 feet of IMC.  I had all the charts, approach plates, etc., etc. for a trip from Minneapolis to Niagara in the back.  They are useless in the back seat, in the dark, in an emergency when you need to focus on what is in front of you.  I don't mess with them anymore, I have Foreflight, iPad, Pro subscription, and now synth vision.  I can tell you from experience it would really have helped.

 

Besides, a Mooney goes a long way.  Have you ever tried to draw a straight line for flight planning across four or five sectionals?

Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted

I dabble with electronic charts for flight planning purposes, and for looking at places. Wonderful for that, and if it's not up-to-date, when was the last time an airport moved? I use Avare on my aging Samsung Galaxy tablet. Sectionals, TACs, Low Enroutes and Approach plates.

 

When flying, I always have a sectional out, with my route highlighted and folded for easy viewing. This took me from the Cincinnati sectional clear to western Wyoming and back, as well as to south Florida and back. Works pretty well.

 

I have had a total electrical failure, which took out radios, VOR heads, lights, transponder and yes, my GPS. Being sort of near home, I knew the area and followed the River, because away from it there were few flat spots and I didn't know what else I might lose.

 

Check out Joe's Pilot Shop, www.joepilot.com, to get subscriptions to whatever paper products you prefer to fly with. Subscribers pay actual shipping charges, so I can have a sectional delivered to me for less than Sporty's list price before shipping. Do realize, though, that shipping costs have increased significantly since the 80s! I think one sectional with postage is $9.17 delivered. I think I get three sectionals four enroutes and four books. Just wish the enroutes were easier to use--along the coast, they are turned at strange angles, and the scale is different for each one. So they are usually discarded unopened, while my sectionals will have several highlighted lines and holes worn in them.

N33GG Mentor

N33GG

Posted
Posted

I dabble with electronic charts for flight planning purposes, and for looking at places. Wonderful for that, and if it's not up-to-date, when was the last time an airport moved? I use Avare on my aging Samsung Galaxy tablet. Sectionals, TACs, Low Enroutes and Approach plates.

 

When flying, I always have a sectional out, with my route highlighted and folded for easy viewing. This took me from the Cincinnati sectional clear to western Wyoming and back, as well as to south Florida and back. Works pretty well.

 

I have had a total electrical failure, which took out radios, VOR heads, lights, transponder and yes, my GPS. Being sort of near home, I knew the area and followed the River, because away from it there were few flat spots and I didn't know what else I might lose.

 

Check out Joe's Pilot Shop, www.joepilot.com, to get subscriptions to whatever paper products you prefer to fly with. Subscribers pay actual shipping charges, so I can have a sectional delivered to me for less than Sporty's list price before shipping. Do realize, though, that shipping costs have increased significantly since the 80s! I think one sectional with postage is $9.17 delivered. I think I get three sectionals four enroutes and four books. Just wish the enroutes were easier to use--along the coast, they are turned at strange angles, and the scale is different for each one. So they are usually discarded unopened, while my sectionals will have several highlighted lines and holes worn in them.

In the old days I had total electric system failures that took out everything.  Today, in my cockpit, and any cockpit I fly in, a total electric failure will not take out my iPad and Garmin 496.  Dual redundancy navigation systems, with lots of capability and power in my hands, easy to carry into the cockpit of any aircraft, independent of aircraft systems.  Nice!

  • Like 1
Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted

ipads overheat. All tablets can crash, hang and have batteries run down. I don't' want to depend on uncertified anything to find my destination somewhere down there under the clouds, between hills and antennas. sometimes my cell phone will get in a mood and discharge itself 25% or more in an hour, getting quite warm in the process. To stop whatever it is, I usually turn it off once or twice. Do you want to do this just before starting an approach?

 

No thanks! I use the electronics in the panel, and follow along on paper. Sometimes I also follow along on the tablet, but I don't expect it to be either functional or accurate when I need it.

 

I'm not here to debate the usefulness of fun electronic backups, simply to answer the OP's question on where to buy reasonably priced paper charts and plates. Please don't clog up his thread telling him a dozen times to spend $1000 on an ipad and a bunch of subscriptions.

midlifeflyer Grand Master

midlifeflyer

Posted
Posted

ipads overheat. All tablets can crash, hang and have batteries run down. I don't' want to depend on uncertified anything to find my destination somewhere down there under the clouds, between hills and antennas. sometimes my cell phone will get in a mood and discharge itself 25% or more in an hour, getting quite warm in the process. To stop whatever it is, I usually turn it off once or twice. Do you want to do this just before starting an approach?

 

 

What gets kinda silly to me is the ideological paper vs plastic arguments.

 

I would not argue with anyone who still prefers paper as a matter of personal choice or convenience (and you'll notice I have minimal tolerance for those who would) but having been paperless in the cockpit for more than 4 years now:

 

• My iPad has never overheated in flight.

• My iPad and the app I use have never crashed in flight.

• I have not had my iPad batteries run down in flight (I have a silly think called an accessory receptacle (fka cigarette lighter plug) for when it might become an issue. 

• The charts on my iPad are just as "certified" as your paper ones.

• I wouldn't want my certified avionics to stop working just before starting an approach, nor would I want my charts, paper or plastic, to disappear from view (maybe you haven't, but I have seen paper charts slide under a seat).

 

These are personal choices, not some "right" or "wrong" handed down on tablets, whether stone or electronic.

  • Like 1
Amelia Experienced

Amelia

Posted
Posted

It all depends on how far you plan to go, how often, and how challenging the environment is, I imagine. If expense is an issue, and you hardly ever leave the state, most states' DOTs publish free Sectional charts and many will mail them to you free. Approach plates and the relevent parts of a Low Altitude en route chart can be downloaded and printed for free through FltPlan.com. I used them for years to augment the official FAA charts I had, especially when the imminent trip I wanted to take strayed away from what I already had on hand. I found the cheapest avgas along my route, thanks to AirNav.com and 100LL.com. All of this made for a bit of a pre-departure workload,but it was all part of the fun, I suppose. I didn't count paper and printer ink as part of the expense, nor my time in dealing with it. And there was a certain cumbersome pleasure in spreading out WACs all the way across the dining room table.

Now all of that stuff fits in my pocket: current gas prices, radio freqs, WACs, sectionals,Enroute charts, approach plates, wind speed and direction, NexRad weather, traffic, even a which-way-is-up picture... And I can document the beauty of that sunset with the very same gadget. As my brain gets slower, the computers get faster.

 

I had a chance a couple of years ago to compare the good old days with the new electronic wonders. My friend, an exceedingly bright and well-organized pilot, and I, not so much of either, headed across the country in her airplane. She had a lapful of charts, plates, notepads, stickies, a fistful of pens and highlighters, and more stuffed in a big bulging satchel in the back seat. All I had was my new early-model iPad.She insisted on waiting for the FBO land-line, and her turn to talk to a flesh and blood FSS briefer for every leg of the journey. I downloaded an electronic briefing, read it, looked at the weather maps, plotted a route, had the flight plan ready to file in about five minutes, as she listened to hold-music. I then wandered off to find where the FBO hid the cookies and coffee, somewhat to her irritation. I watched our progress on the little magic box, while she figured and refigured, folded and unfolded, searched for relevant frequencies, and groped for the pen she dropped. What's the altitude of that pass?...("6715msl:"). Wait a minute, it's right.... .here...somewhere. Oh, I see it. It's 6...(dons magnifiers)...715. She had no faith in electrons, clearly, and there was no point in my rubbing it in. As PIC she had to do what she was comfortable with. Strange CRM, but she knew how she wanted things done.

To be fair, her paper charts never overheated on that 100+ degree desert sunshine, while the magic box did, twice, necessitating a 2 minute cool-down and reboot both times.  She hardly ever had to wipe the smudges off her notes and charts. But my version was faster, more accurate, more capable, more flexible, and a lot less cumbersome. It felt safer to me, back then, and even more so, now, as I learn more tricks, enjoy more technological competitive leapfrogging capability.

As hers did, YMMV.

Both are good.

You jes' pays yer money, and takes yer choice.

  • Like 1
carusoam Grand Master

carusoam

Posted
Posted

Paper v plastic may seem silly to some...

One guy owns trees for paper making...

The other guy has a masters degree in chemical engineering: polymer processing...

Both fly Mooneys.

It takes a serious commitment weigh in on this one,

Marauder Grand Master

Marauder

Posted
Posted

What gets kinda silly to me is the ideological paper vs plastic arguments.

I would not argue with anyone who still prefers paper as a matter of personal choice or convenience (and you'll notice I have minimal tolerance for those who would) but having been paperless in the cockpit for more than 4 years now:

• My iPad has never overheated in flight.

• My iPad and the app I use have never crashed in flight.

• I have not had my iPad batteries run down in flight (I have a silly think called an accessory receptacle (fka cigarette lighter plug) for when it might become an issue.

• The charts on my iPad are just as "certified" as your paper ones.

• I wouldn't want my certified avionics to stop working just before starting an approach, nor would I want my charts, paper or plastic, to disappear from view (maybe you haven't, but I have seen paper charts slide under a seat).

These are personal choices, not some "right" or "wrong" handed down on tablets, whether stone or electronic.

I agree the EFBs today are pretty stable. And are much easier to back up with redundancy. You are not likely to have two copies of enroute charts or even to make a copy of your charts. When I first when to an EFB, I did print copies of the charts to put on my kneeboard -- just in case. Today, I carry two iPads running Garmin Pilot (one in the flight bag), a cell phone with fltpln Go on it and an Aspen capable of displaying all the enorute airways and charts.

Unless I am hit with an EMP, I should be good to go

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Danb Grand Master

Danb

Posted
Posted

I'm getting the idea I'm neurotic, I still make my paper trip kits as I have for 30 yrs, (BTW) I've never used them for over 5 yrs., I carry a new iPad air2 ,an iPad mini, plus of course the iPhone's ,I also fly behind a G1000 with jeppesen service so charts on the panel.. Now after reading what I just wrote other than being neurotic, I also may be stupid, but I feel all the backups can't hurt anything and in the rare instance everything goes to hell I've at least got the bases covered..

wishboneash Experienced

wishboneash

Posted
Posted

Best of both worlds (plastic & paper). I keep a copy of Duracharts (sectionals only) for the regions I fly in. Even if outdated, they are good for emergencies. They will expire before they tear!

Rhumbline Collaborator

Rhumbline

Posted
Posted

I can't speak to trip-kits but I maintain a subscription to a number of sectionals, TAC's & an AFD at mypilotstore.com.  I haven't shopped around for awhile but they used to have the best deal and I think the shipping is free on everything but the AFD.  100% reliable so far which is more than I can say for the iPad, BadElf, ForeFlight combo which recently necessitated use of the 'ol paper standby for use as primary for more than a couple of months.  Hardly missed the electronic distractions.   

midlifeflyer Grand Master

midlifeflyer

Posted
Posted

 

 

I had a chance a couple of years ago to compare the good old days with the new electronic wonders. My friend, an exceedingly bright and well-organized pilot, and I, not so much of either, headed across the country in her airplane. She had a lapful of charts, plates, notepads, stickies, a fistful of pens and highlighters, and more stuffed in a big bulging satchel in the back seat. All I had was my new early-model iPad.She insisted on waiting for the FBO land-line, and her turn to talk to a flesh and blood FSS briefer for every leg of the journey. I downloaded an electronic briefing, read it, looked at the weather maps, plotted a route, had the flight plan ready to file in about five minutes, as she listened to hold-music. I then wandered off to find where the FBO hid the cookies and coffee, somewhat to her irritation. I watched our progress on the little magic box, while she figured and refigured, folded and unfolded, searched for relevant frequencies, and groped for the pen she dropped. What's the altitude of that pass?...("6715msl:"). Wait a minute, it's right.... .here...somewhere. Oh, I see it. It's 6...(dons magnifiers)...715. She had no faith in electrons, clearly, and there was no point in my rubbing it in. As PIC she had to do what she was comfortable with. Strange CRM, but she knew how she wanted things done.

 

I think a lot of us have those kinds of stories. This past year, we made a short trip with my flying club into Charlotte. About an hour flight time. My friend, a pilot with a bunch of hours and professional experience flying jets, but who hadn't flown for a while, asked if he could do the trip under the hood, simulating it as IFR, while I was in command.

 

Having had a lot of experience, he was pretty systematic with the paper. I thought he did just fine. But my wife, a non-pilot, remarked at the end of the day, "Wow that looked like a lot of work. I see why you like your iPad."

 

My other paper story was a flight to OSH before the iPad existed. It was my leg of the trip, I was flying from the right seat,  and we were in solid IMC when we became concerned with thunderstorms ahead of us in our route. The other pilot opened the en rout chart to select a suitable diversion — and completely covered the instrument panel.

 

But if you look at those, they are not about "paper;" they are far more about pilot organization.

 

Same for tablet issues. Most problems I've heard about can be attributed to user error. While I have been very careful to avoid placing my iPad in a situation in which it would overheat, a friend of mine left his out on the wing during preflight. We were halfway to our destination before it recovered from heat stroke.

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