Unintensional spin ( 201)

[Raptor05121]

I did my PPL in a 152. Minimum 3,000 for slow flight, I liked 4,000 for stalls (usually only lost a couple hundred feet). and 7,000 for spins. I had my instructor take me through a couple. My first time seeing everything swoosh by kinda scared me for a second but I'm glad I did. I'd like to get more spin training down the road.

[ArtVandelay]

I ask because the CFI I got my Mooney training had me do it at 8000', and he is Air Force F16 pilot. Sure enough the first full stall the left wing dropped 90 degrees.

I started to recover, but he was quicker.

the POH for the J states should be done in excess of 6000'

[ryoder]

I ask because the CFI I got my Mooney training had me do it at 8000', and he is Air Force F16 pilot. Sure enough the first full stall the left wing dropped 90 degrees.

I started to recover, but he was quicker.

the POH for the J states should be done in excess of 6000'

We did them all at 2500 in my private pilot in the 172. Stalls that is.

[Mooney20]

Part of me believes this and is concerned. I have not practiced stalls solo and probably won't in the Mooney although I have zillions of stalls in a 172.

Part of me wants to call BS that such an experienced Mooney pilot would freeze.

If you haven't done any spin training, consider it. With someone who has plenty of experience doing so in the aircraft to be used. And the aircraft used most certainly should not be a Mooney. It is not approved for spins for a damn good reason. See Fantom's post above.

After that experience, you'll see exactly why the pilot in the original post reacted as he did. The ground rushing at you in a way you've never seen before can certainly elicit that response.

[Ftlausa]

At the risk of eliciting the inevitable response that people were dying when spins were required training, I will state my view that I think spin training should be required.  I got in an inadvertent spin early in PPL training, and I froze.  Being told how to recover, and actually doing it the first time the world is spinning around you are two different things.  I took the CFI spin course before finishing my PPL and it made me more confident and competent.  The training also involved a healthy dose of aerobatics, which helps you learn energy management and a better understanding of the fight envelope.  One aspect of the training that I found particularly enlightening was doing cross controlled stall entries and recoveries. These are a real killer, and I think doing them gives you a real appreciation of the risks of getting too slow in the pattern, particularly base to final.  I do think this training should be done in an aerobatic aircraft with a qualified aerobatic instructor.  I did my training with an airshow pilot and have gone back periodically for the fun of it and to refresh my skills.  I would never do these maneuvers in my Mooney, however.    

[M20F]

Most airplanes unless you hold the wheel back will progress rapidly from a spin (an arobatic maneuver where air speed will hover at stall speed) to a spiral where airspeed rapidly increases. Spins are fun, spirals not so much. Never spun a Mooney and have no intention, sort of the same way I have never spun a twin. Some planes just aren't meant for it and recovery is often more luck than anything else. If you want to do spin training do it in a plane meant for it.

Also keep in mind that unless you are doing a spin with a CFI for the purpose of a CFI rating and you have a passenger you need chutes technically.

[Hank]

Accelerated stalls seem to come up every Flight Review,many with the DPE on my Instrument ride. Yeah, I did them in my Mooney, but I recovered after the buffet and before the actual stall. Made durn shure of that!

[MyNameIsNobody]

I have done slow flight and power off stalls and still do. I shoot for 3500 to 4000ft AGL. I have done full power slow flight to the buffet at about 6000ft AGL. I was test flying the aircraft after hanging an IRAN'd engine and I did not want to back the power off for the first few hours, I also needed a flight review so we combined the test flight with the FR. We were trying to do a full power departure stall, without slowing the plane down. It was a cold day in early March. We started at 4000ft when I pulled back...and back...and back some more crossing through 6000 and the nose still at what felt like 80 degrees or so, I got a small buffet just I told the instructor that I was getting nervous. I nosed over to level flight and told him that I hoped that was good enough.

Been there done that, but the ball is CENTERED....No messing around with uncoordinated slow flight and stalls. Did that once...NEVER again.

[carl]

i think as soon as i get like a gazillion dollars together .i will do some aerobatic training

why can' t there be a base to final spin . upset training for 200 dollars . i don' t want to fly areobatics i want to avoid them .

carl

[Shadrach]

Been there done that, but the ball is CENTERED....No messing around with uncoordinated slow flight and stalls. Did that once...NEVER again.

 

 

Even with the ball dead center, mine drops to the left.  A dirty, power off accelerated stall (swift but smooth pull) has on a few occasions left me with a 90 degree left wing drop.

[ArtVandelay]

i think as soon as i get like a gazillion dollars together .i will do some aerobatic training

why can' t there be a base to final spin . upset training for 200 dollars . i don' t want to fly areobatics i want to avoid them .

carl

Don't know where you're located, but here in SE Florida, CFI spin recovery lesson is $200, full upset training (2 lessons) is $480.

[Resanborn]

Just a follow up to my original post with some added info! We had climbed to 4000 feet to practice slow flight steep turns and approach to landing and departure stalls to the buffett. These we pratice at least twice a year..

We were praciceing slow flight with gear out and 15 degrees of flaps we were right at the bottom of the white arc with the stalll horn intermittently sounding. My partner was doing a slow right turn when the left wing dropped ( suprising us both which it should not have had we briefed what could happen and how to correct it) at which point he kept left bank and pulled back on the yoke which precipitated the spin. We experienced at least four complete turns speed did not rapidly build ? gear and flaps out possibly the reason? We lost about 2000 feet altitude. That is what I know and remember. I am looking to due upset training in Danbury Ct in a couple weeks I will let you know how valuable that is.

[carusoam]

Thank you for the follow-up, resanborn.

Best regards,

-a-

[MyNameIsNobody]

Just a follow up to my original post with some added info! We had climbed to 4000 feet to practice slow flight steep turns and approach to landing and departure stalls to the buffett. These we pratice at least twice a year..

We were praciceing slow flight with gear out and 15 degrees of flaps we were right at the bottom of the white arc with the stalll horn intermittently sounding. My partner was doing a slow right turn when the left wing dropped ( suprising us both which it should not have had we briefed what could happen and how to correct it) at which point he kept left bank and pulled back on the yoke which precipitated the spin. We experienced at least four complete turns speed did not rapidly build ? gear and flaps out possibly the reason? We lost about 2000 feet altitude. That is what I know and remember. I am looking to due upset training in Danbury Ct in a couple weeks I will let you know how valuable that is.

It would appear that your partner is the one that needs the upset training. Sounded like you did a good job in a tough situation...

[takair]

Even with the ball dead center, mine drops to the left.  A dirty, power off accelerated stall (swift but smooth pull) has on a few occasions left me with a 90 degree left wing drop.

Ross, is it possible that the ball is not level? Perhaps the ball was leveled to "fix" a slightly out of rig condition.

[M20F]

Ross, is it possible that the ball is not level? Perhaps the ball was leveled to "fix" a slightly out of rig condition.

Lot's of things can cause one wing to stall before the other causing a drop not just uncoordinated flight.

[mike_elliott]

Been there done that, but the ball is CENTERED....No messing around with uncoordinated slow flight and stalls. Did that once...NEVER again.

I was asked to demonstrate recovery from a cross controlled stall in my Mooney from the right during my initial CFI checkride. When asked to do this, I hesitated doing it, but being younger and prior to hitting the ground in a Mooney, I did it. Today, not so much. I also knew the FAA examiner was a well trained aerobatic pilot and also a high time Mooney Pilot.  

Let me just say it was a ride, and recovery happened fairly quickly. The underwear not so much

[mike_elliott]

i think as soon as i get like a gazillion dollars together .i will do some aerobatic training

why can' t there be a base to final spin . upset training for 200 dollars . i don' t want to fly areobatics i want to avoid them .

carl

No need to, at less than 1000 feet AGL if you enter a base to final spin in your mooney you will be UWOF. Best way is to avoid it, and the best way to avoid it is to keep the ball centered, maintain a standard rate turn and maintain correct airspeed. You can practice these for a lot less than you think.

[Shadrach]

UWOF???

[DonMuncy]

Upside down, in the weeds, on fire.

[M20F]

No need to, at less than 1000 feet AGL if you enter a base to final spin in your mooney you will be UWOF. Best way is to avoid it, and the best way to avoid it is to keep the ball centered, maintain a standard rate turn and maintain correct airspeed. You can practice these for a lot less than you think.

Be coordinated and fly the right speeds hits it squarely, I wouldn't advocate standard rate turns in the pattern though or in general outside of IMC.

[Hank]

Be coordinated and fly the right speeds hits it squarely, I wouldn't advocate standard rate turns in the pattern though or in general outside of IMC.

Why not?? I fly my pattern right on 90 mph, and roll wings level on final at 85 mph to cross the (often imaginary) perimeter at 75 if heavy or 70 if light, pulling throttle to idle when I have the field made. Pattern spacing is usually 1/2-3/4 miles from the runway.

My turns are usually gentle, not the 30-40° banks that some people use to "stay within gliding distance in case the engine fails." Not using the PC override button reminds me to not overbank, as steep turns, low speed and adjusting glide path with Up yoke seem to be the common contributors to the base-to-final stall deaths. So I avoid these with gentler banks,musing throttle to control glide path and yoke to maintain speed.

What kind of turns do you think are proper for the pattern?

[mike_elliott]

 

Be coordinated and fly the right speeds hits it squarely, I wouldn't advocate standard rate turns in the pattern though or in general outside of IMC.

Hummm....Personally, I fly VFR like I fly IFR like I teach, thus standard rate. Of course I wouldn't be flying a pattern in IMC unless a circle to land at circling minimums, a dangerous maneuver itself and prohibited by many carrier ops. You might want to visit this with your CFI sometime. Calculate the stall speed at a steeper than standard rate turn you normally use, and examine your safety margins. 

[mike_elliott]

UWOF???

 

Upside down in the weeds on fire - a termed coined by S&C Bob (sympathetic and caring) when he described the "itty bitty" bolt that holds the mooney tail on failing being a bigger issue than most when people would express a concern on aviating.com 15 years ago. He got his nickname from such dark, and negative  (yet humorous) scenarios'

[M20F]

Why not?? I fly my pattern right on 90 mph, and roll wings level on final at 85 mph to cross the (often imaginary) perimeter at 75 if heavy or 70 if light, pulling throttle to idle when I have the field made. Pattern spacing is usually 1/2-3/4 miles from the runway.

My turns are usually gentle, not the 30-40° banks that some people use to "stay within gliding distance in case the engine fails." Not using the PC override button reminds me to not overbank, as steep turns, low speed and adjusting glide path with Up yoke seem to be the common contributors to the base-to-final stall deaths. So I avoid these with gentler banks,musing throttle to control glide path and yoke to maintain speed.

What kind of turns do you think are proper for the pattern?

Using the rough thumb of 10% TAS + 5 to calculate approximate bank angle for a standard rate turn at 90 mph you would have a bank angle of @13 degrees which makes for a wider pattern than I would be comfortable with and is going to raise the chances of over shooting / under shooting with a crosswind.

The main reason people stall/spin is the under/overshoot and then bank and crank the stick back. While you can stall at any speed and attitude if the nose is down and the wings are unloaded it isn't going to happen even with a 90 degree bank. Holding your base and final speeds while descending (nose down) makes it perfectly safe to bank sufficiently to keep a tight pattern. Personally I use 30-45 degrees in a continual descent from abeam the numbers (gear down and half flaps).