Upgrading to a Mooney?

[ntschmandt]

Dear Mooney enthusiasts,

I am currently a pilot with about 175 hours and close to finishing his instrument rating (already have high perf and complex). I currently own a 1974 180HP piper warrior, that I love and has served me wonderfully, but I am ready to start thinking about something that can do better cross country time and fuel efficiency.

 

After much thought, I think a Mooney M20J/K is probably the plane that would suit me best. If the group wouldn't mind, I have a few questions that I would like some advice on;

 

1) Times: I am getting bored with the warrior and feel ready to upgrade, but am I moving too quickly going to an M20J with the number of hours and ratings that I have?

 

2) Price: Currently, the value of my plane is about $45K. I can put in another $15K cash when I upgrade, but I will need to wait to be able to save up more than that. Can I afford a decent M20J at that value?

 

3) Do people agree the M20J is the right plane, and how much better is it than the earlier models? Most of the reviews I read seemed to think there was a solid difference, which is why I settled on the J version as the oldest.

 

3) Can people tell me how accurate the VREF values are for Mooneys? I have seen quite a few Mooneys for sale that are below VREF but still are not getting offers. Is it something with their planes or are the vref values too high?

 

Thank you very much for your time!

[laytonl]

This is the best Mooney valuation spreadsheet. It's probably a little high though. Lee

http://www.vintagemooneygroup.com/M20JValuation.html

[Danb]

Newbie

Welcome..I went from a warrior to a J after about 100 hours and got my Ifr rating in my first J and learned how to fly it properly while attaining my rating, no I don't think your jumping the gun now can you get a quality J at your price ,no clue you'd have to be quite lucky, now there are quite a few C,E and F models that are fine airplanes that may fit your budget while flying fast and efficiently. All the four bangers are quite efficient.

I can't say the J is that much better than the pre J models, some are gorgeous.i had 2 J's now a Bravo, quite a plane but not efficient and loves fuel.. Good luck and get a good PPi. Kiss your warrior by by.

Glad to have u aboard...

[JasonW]

1. My transition was from a rented Archer to a rented Comanche at 55hrs and then purchased my J at 85hr. Did not have an issue at all and am currently working through my IFR in it. I LOVE MY J. The only thing that I feel needs a little more attention, emphasis on little, compared to the pipers I flew is landing speed and x-wind. Speed, efficiency, IFR stability are all better.

2. A frequently flown, low time engine, gps, ifr M20J for 60k is going to be hard to find.

3. The J has a lot of great attributes (I am bias) but I wouldn't discount the earlier models. There are several threads on this topic.

Good luck and welcome!

[Shadrach]

Dear Mooney enthusiasts,

I am currently a pilot with about 175 hours and close to finishing his instrument rating (already have high perf and complex). I currently own a 1974 180HP piper warrior, that I love and has served me wonderfully, but I am ready to start thinking about something that can do better cross country time and fuel efficiency.

 

After much thought, I think a Mooney M20J/K is probably the plane that would suit me best. If the group wouldn't mind, I have a few questions that I would like some advice on;

 

1) Times: I am getting bored with the warrior and feel ready to upgrade, but am I moving too quickly going to an M20J with the number of hours and ratings that I have?

 

2) Price: Currently, the value of my plane is about $45K. I can put in another $15K cash when I upgrade, but I will need to wait to be able to save up more than that. Can I afford a decent M20J at that value?

 

3) Do people agree the M20J is the right plane, and how much better is it than the earlier models? Most of the reviews I read seemed to think there was a solid difference, which is why I settled on the J version as the oldest.

 

3) Can people tell me how accurate the VREF values are for Mooneys? I have seen quite a few Mooneys for sale that are below VREF but still are not getting offers. Is it something with their planes or are the vref values too high?

 

Thank you very much for your time!

Where are you located?

[rbridges]

Most of us transitioned from 172s and Cherokees. I actually had fewer hours than you. Have not regretted it once.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard!

Give us a hint on how you intend to use the plane. Something we often describe as your typical mission.

If you are flying VFR on the east coast, the NA J may be good.

If you seek high altitude, IFR flight, the turbo K may be better.

If you intend to fly to work every day, a FIKI Bravo would be high on my list.

For four adults and IFR flying, I went with the NA Ovation.

Prices of all planes are on such a wide scale. Mostly this is because airframe and time, engine time, paint, interior, fuel tanks and instruments are on a scale of +/- $5k for each item...

The nicest plane will cost $30k more than the lower end plane. $5k for the nicer engine condition, $5k for nicer paint. Etc..

A really nice J will be over $100k. The other end of the scale is closer to $60k...

Unfortunately, it's not all your skills in negotiation.

Some planes are worth more than others.

Be careful at the low end of the spectrum. They can be better for some people than they are for others...

They can be too expensive to upgrade to meet your needs.

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

NT--

You have three times the hours that I had when I bought my Mooney. I had 3 hours simulated instrument from my fresh PPL training, zero time outside of a 172 (two 172s, one with 150 hp and 40° flaps, one with 160 hop and 30° flaps).

For your budget, you can get a reasonably equipped F or a lower-grade J. The main difference is age and about 10 mph in improved aerodynamics from the harder-to-open fiberglass cowl on the J, and some other tweaks that Mooney didn't disclose. Many Fs will have some of the other J aero improvements--windshield, wing tips, flap gap seals, etc.

The K is basically a turbocharged J, so it's faster because it can go higher. At the same altitude, the speeds are the same and the K burns more fuel. But the J climbs faster, and climbs higher to clear weather and turbulence and catch strong tailwinds. It boils down to your mission. Most J missions can be flown by an F or a K, it all depends on now much you want to spend.

[carqwik]

The good thing about being a low time pilot is that you don't know what you don't know.  I transitioned into a T-Arrow IV at about 85 hours...and to the M20J/K at about 150 hours.  I was in my mid-20s at that time...and I survived just fine.  In fact, I didn't even have an IFR rating when I first took the yoke of a Mooney (min was 200 hours TT to get the rating way back then).

 

Just do it...you'll come to realize how pokey the poopers are to fly!

[clh]

I purchased a E with about 100 hrs,  Insurance the first year was not too bad and got better.  

 

Just to add to the pile, you can get a very good condition, C,E,F,G with speed and avionic upgrades for about the same price as a ragged out J.  Take your time they are out there, but do not stay on the market long.

 

The turbos are a much more complex and costly plane. I would not recommend them unless your mission requires them, or you enjoy sucking on O2.  If high altitude capability is a must, then go with the turbo, but if most of your time is below 10-12k.  I would go with NA.  

 

As to long, short or middle body,  I Highly recommend you try all three and decide what suites your mission the best.  I was set on a mid-body when my E came available.  I have had myself and three FAA sized passengers travel from Texas to North Dakota.  Keep the stops every three hours or so and it is not any worse than my last airline trip in coach...

[DrBill]

1: Times:  no problem. you will transition from the Piper to the Mooney just fine.  Your insurance will probably want 10 hrs of dual and then 10 hr solo before you carry passengers.

2:Price:  depending on Avionics, you'll be hard pressed to get a J for 60.  Better look for an E or F with decent avionics for that price.. In 2011 I bought my E with 430W, A/P for $46.

3: If you could afford $100K for a J then it's the right plane.  I could not so I settled for an E and absolutely LOVE IT.   Just did a 4 hr PNP flight on 36 gal of fuel.

4:  Vref I think is about 10% high of selling prices.

 

I had a Beech Sundowner for 7 years prior to the Mooney... NIGHT AND DAY.

Bill

[Bob - S50]

I don't think you can get a decent J for $60,000.  Unless you plan to fly a lot, you might consider looking for a partner or two.  A quick check on Controller.com shows 19 J's (201s) going for $60k to $170k.  Many are under $100k.

 

Obviously a partner has advantages and disadvantages:

 

Good:

Lets you buy a nicer plane.

Cuts your fixed costs in half, or third, or quarter, leaving you more money to pay for fuel.

 

Bad:

Scheduling conflicts.  I've got three partners and have not had that problem, but I only fly about 65 hours/year.

Do your partners treat the plane the way you want it treated?

Upgrade disagreements.

 

Personally, I would look for a '78 or newer because of the fuel selector valve placement.  Also, as I've said here many many times, unless you never plan to fly with more than 2 adults, always ask about useful load.  Work it out for yourself.  Figure 120 pounds for bags.  For me, minimum flight time would be 2 hours plus reserves.  Figure 180 pounds of fuel to do that.  That's 300 pounds before you start adding people.  You'll find useful loads out there from about 850 pounds to just over 1000 pounds.  That 150 pounds is almost another full adult or enough fuel to fly 400 NM.

 

Best of luck.

 

Bob

[M20F]

$45K seems a bit high for a Warrior though not sure what you have for radios and what not, how are you getting that valuation?

For $45K I would really look at C's which you are going to find much better candidates. By all means look at E/F's as well you could get lucky. I would retain the $15K for first year repairs, again can get lucky on that but usually first annual is addressing a lot of deferred items.

Pretty much all single engine GA airplanes are easy enough to fly and a couple hours with somebody who knows the plane is all you really need to master it. Money's have their quirks but it certainly isn't rocket science to fly one.

[Bob_Belville]

This is the best Mooney valuation spreadsheet. It's probably a little high though. Lee

http://www.vintagemooneygroup.com/M20JValuation.html

 

DrBill said:

4:  Vref I think is about 10% high of selling prices.

I find both vref and Jimmy Garrison need to update their spreadsheet to take into account newer avionics. GTN650/750, Aspen , GDL88, 2020 ADS-B compliance. These upgrades will become more and more common.

[duckguy]

I purchased my M20J post selling my Archer. I have not looked back. The J is a great model that does so much with so little. 65k will be a hard budget, compromises will be a reality. 

[bradp]

You should not have any problem transitioning to a mooney. More will happen in a shorter period time (Ie planning required) and you can't fudge your numbers like you can with C/P single being fast or high on final, but that's about it. My transition was from a Arrow to a J, and that was very straightforward. I more remember thinking "so this is how an airplane should fly". You'll love it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Oldguy]

I bought my J coming out of a C172 in 2013 and have never looked back. If you already have the complex and high performance and are working on your IFR, it sounds like you are willing to put in the time and effort to truly learn about flying. Regardless of the model you choose, you will find the plane you want is a Mooney.

 

The others are right; a J for $60k would likely either be difficult to find or require a significant injection of funds to get it where you would want it to be. Finding a C, E or F would be more likely in that range, and, with a good PPI, you will find your annual costs similar to the Piper.

 

But tell us a little more about what your current and foreseeable future missions are. What type of instruments do you want in your Mooney - steam, glass or a mix? Carrying a full load of people or just a you plus one? The brain trust here on Mooneyspace has ample experience to help point you in the right direction so you can make an informed decision for yourself.

 

John

[ntschmandt]

Thanks so much all!
I am located in Cleveland, OH (at KLNN) for those who asked. I will be moving to Chicago in the next few months, not sure where I'll base yet.

 

It sounds like I am going to be going for an F model rather than a J on the grounds of price, at least if I choose to upgrade immediately (if I wait I can save a little more).

 

My mission is typically going to be me solo or me plus one. I will take the plane long distances though (will fly from OH to TX at least a few times a year), and I am probably going to try a trip across the Atlantic sometime in the next few years.

 

I would definitely like an IFR GPS, and preferably with a coupled A/P.

 

Anything I should look out for when looking for F model Mooneys?

 

Thanks again!

[rbridges]

If you could get an ifr gps and autopilot, that would be huge. Probably 2 of the more expensive options. An engine monitor would be third on my list. Nothing that I know specific to an f, so I'd look at old threads about pre purchase inspections.

[Hank]

Search for George Perry's excellent thread titled something like, "Buying a Vintage Mooney" from 2009 or 2010. Excellent advice from many people. Wish we could make it a sticky to always stay at the top of the forum for easy review.

Happy hunting!

[Marauder]

Thanks so much all!

I am located in Cleveland, OH (at KLNN) for those who asked. I will be moving to Chicago in the next few months, not sure where I'll base yet.

It sounds like I am going to be going for an F model rather than a J on the grounds of price, at least if I choose to upgrade immediately (if I wait I can save a little more).

My mission is typically going to be me solo or me plus one. I will take the plane long distances though (will fly from OH to TX at least a few times a year), and I am probably going to try a trip across the Atlantic sometime in the next few years.

I would definitely like an IFR GPS, and preferably with a coupled A/P.

Anything I should look out for when looking for F model Mooneys?

Thanks again!

I have owned my 75F for 24 years. Many have been retrofitted with speed mods. You will also find a spectrum of condition and equipment. Take your time and do your homework. Feel free to pick my brain on the later model Fs (full electric gear and flaps). The 75 and 76 F models were the basis for the 77 J. So you will see a lot of similarities in the interior appointments.

Here is a picture of my F with the 201 windshield.

As for upgrades, you will find avionics ranging from early near original to updated like mine.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[DXB]

I jumped to an M20C straight out of my PPL in a Warrior (70 hrs ago).  Was very hesitant and intimidated, almost bought an Archer instead. Then I found a great Mooney instructor and started to love my plane within 5 hours, solo'd in it by 10 hrs, started to feel moderately comfortable after 20.   Now I cannot imagine ever going back to the Warrior.  With your far greater experience than mine going in, your transition will be a snap, and you will never look back. 

[Bob_Belville]

Since your mission will be 1 or 2 on board you should include E models as you search. The F/Js have more leg room in the back seat and higher weight - gross and useful load. But these features will not be as important to you as the expensive upgrades you hope to find already installed... Moving Map GPS, A/P, EDM, HSI/Aspen, GPSS, ADS-B, etc.