Navigation Question

[romair]

I flew into Chicago yesterday (KGYY) and found myself with a couple of questions as I was trying to get to do what the controller was asking.

The last leg of the flight was BEARZ then D KGYY, expect visual approach. While I was going direct to the airport, the controller changed my clearance direct Garie LOM then direct, probably trying to get me lined up with the runway.

I felt a bit unsure at that time. Since it was a LOM, I thought that the best way to find it is on the ILS approach plate, and fortunately I was right. I saw that the identifier was GY and added that into the Garmin, and it worked However, when I added GY into Foreflight, it took me somewhere differently.

Two questions - if you were asked by ATC to go direct LOM, and you were not familiar with that fix, would you have questioned ATC or just tried to find it on a plate. It was especially confusing at Garie sounds very familiar to Gary the airport, and it took me a while to realize that they wanted me to go to the LOM first.

Second, how would you identify the LOM on Foreflight, so it can be entered it in the flightplan?

Thanks...I felt that the airplane was getting ahead of me somewhat, and it was not a good feeling. I was lucky that the ceilings were not too low, and was also able to slow down the plane significantly while trying to figure it out without ATC being unhappy with me.

Stefan

[wishboneash]

It's not clear from your post whether you were on the ILS approach (on an IFR flight plan doing a visual approach since you did mention later about ceilings etc.). From the controllers instructions it seems you were on an IFR plan or he expected you were familiar with GY. Were you below the clouds and flying visually? Perhaps you could have asked for a vector to get some time to set up. I am not familiar with Foreflight, but in Garmin Pilot, it is easy to locate the GY navigation aide. If you were on the ILS approach and had that open it would have been obvious where GY was. Hopefully you can provide more info about the flight conditions.

[markejackson02]

Garie is the name of the navaid/fix.  GY is the radio identifier.  To enter it in Foreflight, it would be BEARZ GARIE KGYY.  DYANN is an outer marker in South Carolina that shares the GY radio identifier.  Probably where your Foreflight was trying to send you.

[romair]

It's not clear from your post whether you were on the ILS approach (on an IFR flight plan doing a visual approach since you did mention later about ceilings etc.). From the controllers instructions it seems you were on an IFR plan or he expected you were familiar with GY. Were you below the clouds and flying visually? Perhaps you could have asked for a vector to get some time to set up. I am not familiar with Foreflight, but in Garmin Pilot, it is easy to locate the GY navigation aide. If you were on the ILS approach and had that open it would have been obvious where GY was. Hopefully you can provide more info about the flight conditions.

 

 

I was not on an ILS approach. I was just below the cloud layer looking for the airport. ATC initially told me to go direct to the airport, and told me to expect the visual approach (3000 OVC). Then they cleared me for Garie LOM. That's when I became confused as I didn't know where Garie was vs maybe I was misunderstanding them and they wanted me to still go direct Gary airport (the names sounding exactly the same were part of the confusion). However, since I did hear the controller say LOM, I figured the best place to find an LOM would be on the ILS approach place. I opened the plate, found it and then entered it into the GTN and then it became a non-event. Also confusing was that Garmin did take the GY identifier that was on the approach plate, but Foreflight did not. 

[chrisk]

When I have had similar things happen, I ask for phonetics.  Once I was in Galveston and got a way point of "Vidor", and since Vidor Texas was close, but the wrong directions, and I couldn't find it.  I asked for the spelling.  It was "Biter".  Fortunately I was on the ground getting a clearance.   -I blame this on the south Texas accent.  Another time in Florida, I received a way point I couldn't understand.  This time I was in the air.  Asking for phonetics resulted in vectors.

[midlifeflyer]

romair, you are describing a situation that appears to becoming more and more common, controllers mentioning a fix that is on an approach plate or SID or STAR, but not on whatever you are looking at at the time. 

 

I would treat it exactly the same as I do with any instruction to proceed to any fix I'm not familiar with. 

1. Advise you are unfamiliar (or not) and ask for it's spelling.
2. (a) Put it in as a Direct to fix in your GPS or (b)type it in the search box in ForeFlight (or another EFB). 
3. If you still need to, add it to your flight plan in the appropriate place and make whatever other adjustments you want.

The choice between 2(a) and 2(b)or both, for that matter, in whatever order, is a matter of preference. I kind of go back and forth on that one between wanting to get going quickly and wanting to see where it is in relation to everything else, but wither way works.

 

The pre-GPS method also works - ask what procedure it is on - but that definitely takes more time.

[Mooney20]

When the controller used the term GARIE LOM, it was his way of telling you where to find the fix. And by golly you did! Perfect!

If ever you can't readily find a fix, ask them to spell it phonetically. Works everywhere. Bottom line, don't accept a clearance until you understand it. Uphold your end of the deal by being familiar with your destination and its environs. All it takes is a 5-10 minute chart review.

Regarding entering it into Foreflight, it sounds like you were in the terminal area fairly close to your destination. I would not spend the mental horsepower trying to refine Foreflight since you had the fix in your primary navigator.

[Danb]

Agreed Mooney20...I was enroute from New Orleans to Wilmington de, and was given a route change around Birmingham al. And asked 3 times for the fix including spelling it, I could not understand his dialec and he got aggravated and went as far as saying if I could not fly and follow directions go direct to airport?. I asked for his supervisor or someone who spoke English and promptly had another controller spell the fix and apologize for the dick...I only assume they have bad days to, but don't understand our lives depends on understanding there directions...I'm flying to DMax's July 5 and hope I don't have anything similar occur especially since I doing the 1200 miles solo..

[AndyFromCB]

When I have had similar things happen, I ask for phonetics.  Once I was in Galveston and got a way point of "Vidor", and since Vidor Texas was close, but the wrong directions, and I couldn't find it.  I asked for the spelling.  It was "Biter".  Fortunately I was on the ground getting a clearance.   -I blame this on the south Texas accent.  Another time in Florida, I received a way point I couldn't understand.  This time I was in the air.  Asking for phonetics resulted in vectors.

 

cleared direct YUALL

[N201MKTurbo]

Dial up the LOM on your ADF and fly to it...

[Jerry 5TJ]

Dial up the LOM on your ADF and fly to it...

(What's a LOM?  What's an ADF?)

 

Seriously, ask ATC to spell any fix you don't recognize, that does not make sense, or if you just need 10 more seconds to think about their request.

[Marauder]

In all years I have flown to my home airport, I was never assigned part of a STAR but on my last trip I was.

He said intercept V210 and proceed to (this what I heard) BUTTS. I asked him to spell it since I was listening above the open squelch on my wonderful Garmin GTN (hear that Peter Garmin -- I couldn't). He spelled it and I repeated B-U-T-T-S. He replied that was incorrect and spelled it again as B-U-N-T-S and added "Hey, you aren't that guy on MooneySpace with the infatuation with big BUTTS, are you?!

I replied, who me?!

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[Danb]

Chris you serious? If so that's a riot..I get friggen bunts often from Kilg.

[Loogie]

You could have the app procedure loaded in foreflight, fairly quickly and it will show your approach fixes. It can be done in seconds, new feature and very useful. It might have helped, also a quick request for a hdg sometimes clears things up. Sometimes they r pretty busy and don't spend the time they should clarifying critical questions...

[carqwik]

Big Iron (i.e., anything with turbine power) always fly IFR and always have the ILS dialed in for the runway in use (if there is an ILS available and thus has the ILS approach plate out) even if told to expect a visual approach.  So it is not uncommon for controllers to give instructions to a "fly to" fix even when in VFR conditions.

 

Listen to LiveATC.net approach controllers at busier airports like KLAS.  Jet jockeys are often given a visual approach to Runway 19 (L or R) but told to fly the ground track of the arrival which of course is an IFR procedure.  For Runway 25L, even with visual approaches, the controllers will often tell a crew to join final at "PRINO" or "LARRE" which are on the ILS so it is up to the crew to get the plane there on their own even though they've been given a visual approach.

[Marauder]

Chris you serious? If so that's a riot..I get friggen bunts often from Kilg.

Nah, it was a joke Dan. At least the MooneySpace comment. Although I have never gotten BUNTS on an arrival (even when I was based at KILG). Bunch of direct MXE but never BUNTS. I suspect it was because I was on V170 coming from the northwest and the weather was kind of crappy.

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[midlifeflyer]

You could have the app procedure loaded in foreflight, fairly quickly and it will show your approach fixes. It can be done in seconds, new feature and very useful. It might have helped, also a quick request for a hdg sometimes clears things up. Sometimes they r pretty busy and don't spend the time they should clarifying critical questions...

That's assuming you know which procedure the fix being mentioned is on. Remember that romair was on the visual; no procedure had been assigned.

 

Here's an example. You are leaving the Denver area are are being given radar vectors. Out of nowhere, the controller says, "Proceed direct EXTAN."

 

Once knowing how to spell it, I, and some others here would just pop EXTAN into my panel GPS or ForeFlight's search box and head there. Takes about 10 seconds.

 

Try to find it by bringing the Denver procedures up in ForeFlight and see what happens

[Bob - S50]

A couple things you might consider in the future:

 

1.  As others have said, ask the controller to spell the name of the fix.

 

2.  Ask for an 'initial vector while I program my equipment'.  He may give you a heading or he may just say 5 degrees right, direct when able.

 

3.  Have an approach loaded but not activated in your GPS.  If there is an ILS to the runway, I'd pick that one because as others have said, ATC is kind of spring loaded to assigning the ILS.  If they then give you direct, there is a reasonable chance that you'll just need to find the fix near the end of your flightplan and go direct.

 

Bob

[midlifeflyer]

 

3.  Have an approach loaded but not activated in your GPS.  If there is an ILS to the runway, I'd pick that one because as others have said, ATC is kind of spring loaded to assigning the ILS.  If they then give you direct, there is a reasonable chance that you'll just need to find the fix near the end of your flightplan and go direct.

 

Bob

 

That is a great recommendation for both IFR and VFR pilots when heading into any airport, particularly one that serves airline traffic and that has parallel runways. Even without naming a fix, "Track the localizer inbound" is a fairly common instruction at those airports as a way of trying to ensure adequate spacing.

[romair]

Thanks guys, this is really good advice as I am building my IFR time. Better to learn how to deal with unexpected requests while in VMC rather than in clouds. I felt that I got lucky to find the fix and I don't want my IFR flying to be based on luck...Btw, the ILS was NOTAMed out of service, so I had briefed the GPS approach just in case, but did not really look at the ILS one.

[Marauder]

I think the questions was answered. Spell it out GARIE ... enter that, GARIE ... and the GPS should take you to the correct place ...

NOT sure how the conversation got on BUTTS? Hmmmm? Chris .... ?

 

Like every other thread on this site... something triggers it. GARIE sounds like HAIRY which triggers thoughts of HAIRY as in HAIRY BUTTS...  which then leads to BUTTS as in BIG BUTTS and then out comes the pictures.... 

[Loogie]

That's assuming you know which procedure the fix being mentioned is on. Remember that romair was on the visual; no procedure had been assigned.

 

Here's an example. You are leaving the Denver area are are being given radar vectors. Out of nowhere, the controller says, "Proceed direct EXTAN."

 

Once knowing how to spell it, I, and some others here would just pop EXTAN into my panel GPS or ForeFlight's search box and head there. Takes about 10 seconds.

 

Try to find it by bringing the Denver procedures up in ForeFlight and see what happens

Yeah but he knew what runway he was being lined up with, so it would have been simple to load that approach; just an option, not all folks are familiar w loading the approach on foreflight.

[Hank]

Yeah but he knew what runway he was being lined up with, so it would have been simple to load that approach; just an option, not all folks are familiar w loading the approach on foreflight.

Many of us don't use ForeFlight. My iPad isn't certified, the batteries run down, apps crash. On the other hand, my G430W works pretty well, and so far has. It's never shut down sooner than the engine, even on multilegged days. I've also never loaded an approach of any kind when cleared for a visual approach, although Center recently asked if I wanted one coming home around 2130. No thanks, I've got the blinky light and the runway lights in sight.

In IMC, I load the approach that I ask for or am assigned. Sometimes I will ask for a different one, and sometimes get it. But on a visual approach, I look out the big screen above the panel, find the runway and fly to it with only occasional glances at the panel itself. Honestly, I spend more time checking the airspace around me than looking inside. MP set, hold yoke to slow down, in the white, look at flap indicator until right, gear down, check the light, and occasional glances at ASI and Altimeter, that's it.

Knowing which runway I'm going to just helps me land in the right place. I'm not gonna waste time scrolling around looking for an approach, it's usually that big concrete stripe over there. That's the whole basis for a Visual Approach, eyes out the window and go where you're looking. Just like we all learned as student pilots, so it can't be too hard. Right?? No oriental pilot jokes . . .

[Loogie]

Hank, you make a great point, I was just suggesting an option to find a fix on his foreflight procedure key, it's a new feature and it is obvious by his pictures that he uses foreflight. There many ways to fly; the approach feature on my G530 works great as well etc. but was just suggesting using one option that is a new feature, maybe it helps, if it doesn't then just store it in the bag of tricks. If you don't use foreflight then disregard my chatter...

Cheers

[Marauder]

Truly you have a dizzying intellect! Are you by any chance Sicilian?

(The Black Pirate Roberts - paraphrased from tne battle of wits scene in The Princess Bride)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9s0UURBihH8

Nope, not Silician. Just have an immunity to iocane...

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