Changing the oil?

[Guest]

Little does Mooneymite and the other MooneySpace participants know, but they're actually dead. And this is their form of hell,; to live over and over again the same forum threads.

Time to roll the fat woman in.

Or we are all suffering from Alzheimer's

Clarence

[stevesm20b]

I fly my Mooney about 100 hours a year and change my oil and filter every 25 hours and use Aeroshell 15W-50. I don't do an oil analysis but do cut the filter open and check it every time.

[M016576]

Since we are on the topic of oil, where do you guys usually buy your oil? Last time, I bought a case from Sporty's... Seemed like a good deal but not a GREAT deal.

I buy from a local chemical store- Phillips 20w50 cc- 52 bucks a case. If you buy local, you save the shipping cost...

25 hours seems like overkill to me... But then again, I've got a 12QT sump. I change every 4 months or 35 hours... Sadly, more often then not 4 months ends up being only 25 hours :-(

[jetdriven]

No! That's dumping perfectly good dollars down the oil bucket!

Aeroshell 15W50 and filter approx. q 35 hours or 4 months year round.

My philisophy is since I'm going to buy oil why not pay just a little more and buy the best premium oil available purposefully formulated for my engine. For a cost delta of a little over a dollar per quart it's a no brainer.

How is it purposefully formulated for your Lycoming engine? Is it the TPP additive which breaks down into hydrochloric acid in the presence of heat and water vapor? Or the 50% PAO synthetic formulation which won't carry lead bromide in suspension and then sludges the engine?

[aaronk25]

Hey guys I'm just wondering how often should you change the oil in the plane? I've been flying on mine for around 50hours since the annual so im curious?

Depends how often you fly. It's not that the oil doesn't lubricate as well at 50hours as it does at 25hours it does (or we would be splitting hairs trying to measure the difference) the issue is oil with more than lets say 20 hours starts containing combustion blow by contaminated that raise the acid level of the oil. You know what acidity promotes? Corrosion. Take a look at a old battery box they get pretty nasty.

Now engine blow by isn't as acidic as battery acid, but if your plane sits for 2 weeks at a time without being flown it might make sense to not run the oil longer than 25hours, due to acidity build up. If you run it weekly the acidity doesn't have a chance to get rust/corrosion started.

So the other side of this is that oils like 15w-50 semi synthetic have been know to not cling on the metal parts as long, specifically the cam and lifters.

There is a additive available called vanguard that contains several components with one being designed to counter acidity.

If it was my plane I wouldn't run a synthetic oil as its molecules are S shaped where conventional 20w-50 Philips oil (non-syn) molecules are tree branch shaped and can carry more sludge and blow by by-product so in return does a better job keeping the engine clean.

Some feel that buying the most expensive oil like the semi-synthetic 15w-50w is helping their engine. Current data would counter this but at the same time their planes are not falling out of the sky due to oil type.

I'd recommend Phillips 20w-50 with camguard additive as its about the same price as the more expensive oil but with a much better additive package and keeps the engine cleaner.

[Bravoman]

Does everyone use CamGuard?

I understand that if you use an oil with comparable additives such as aeroshell it would be duplicative. I use Phillips which has no additive so I use it. Everything I've read and heard indicates it certainly can't hurt, particularly if you're not flying your bird a couple times a week. If you're flying several hours per week chances are you don't need oil additives.

[DrBill]

Every 50 hrs, oil and filter   Aeroshell W100.   Purchase from local shell distributor where there local A&P gets it.   We usually ride together to re-stock.

Ask the head of the local flight school or airport manager where they get it.

BILL

[jetdriven]

Triphenyl phosphate and camguard are in no way comparable. It's like saying motorcycle spray chain oil is the same as Corrosion-x. Triphenyl phosphate is an anti-scuff agent. That is it. Camguard has some 15 or 20 different ingredients. Including corrosion inhibitors.

[xrs135]

Usually oil-store.com but I also check out AirplaneOil.com and kellerheartt.com as they sometimes have better deals.

 

Nope.  I use Aeroshell 15w-50.  Supposedly, additives are superfluous with that oil.

 

Thanks! I also use Aeroshell 15W-50... FYI, Kellerheartt has a pretty good deal right now on a case for $88... and if you use the code "OIL5" you get an additional 5% off - plus free shipping!

[xrs135]

Also, just to put it out there... No CamGuard for me. My bird flies at least once a week, I'm hangared in Reno where the temperature/dewpoint spread is typically 30-35 degrees celsius. (translation: ZERO humidity year round). Not too worried about corrosion here!

[gsxrpilot]

AeroShell 100+

50 hours

Buy it at my local NAPA store by the case.

[TTaylor]

From Mike Busch:   "I normally recommend 50 hours or four months, whichever comes first".

[StinkBug]

I'm surprised how many of you are changing at 25 hours. My oil still looks clean and clear at that point. It doesn't even start getting noticeably darker until around 40. I've been changing at 50, filter together. That said, I've only had the plan since January, but have been averaging 30+ hours a month, so it doesn't exactly get a chance to sit either.

[aaronk25]

I sometimes wonder if listening even takes place on a thread like this..instead I see a lot of "I use this xyz".

WHO CARES....offer why you do or don't do something or how you arrived at your conclusion so others can learn from you.

[gsxrpilot]

I sometimes wonder if listening even takes place on a thread like this..instead I see a lot of "I use this xyz".

WHO CARES....offer why you do or don't do something or how you arrived at your conclusion so others can learn from you.

 

 

Mike Busch disciple.

[N201MKTurbo]

Triphenyl phosphate and camguard are in no way comparable. It's like saying motorcycle spray chain oil is the same as Corrosion-x. Triphenyl phosphate is an anti-scuff agent. That is it. Camguard has some 15 or 20 different ingredients. Including corrosion inhibitors.

I think you mean Tricresyl phosphate (TCP) an extreme pressure additive for lubricants.

I see that Lycoming juice is TPP a less toxic and less effective substitute for TCP.

[Browncbr1]

I am currently using Exxon Elite 20w-50...  The previous owner used this and said that it contains some additives similar to camguard to keep the cam nice and wet.   I am no chemist, but I believed him, as his breadth of knowledge was impressive.. 

 

I've started to add Avblend as well, at the advice from some very experienced guys locally here... I was told it would mitigate risk of a stuck valve, which I have heard of killing motors.. 

 

On the advice of others and my CFI and A&P who operate a 6 plane fleet doing 100 hour inspections ever month, changing oil every 25 hours and filter at 100hour inspection is how to get long life out of your motor..   So, I trust their advice, as they are way more experienced than most of us.. 

[PTK]

Thanks! I also use Aeroshell 15W-50... FYI, Kellerheartt has a pretty good deal right now on a case for $88... and if you use the code "OIL5" you get an additional 5% off - plus free shipping!

Thanks for the tip xrs!! That's a great deal indeed on the absolute premium aviation piston engine oil!

Especially with the free shipping on top of the discount. Free shipping is unheard of on oil!

I ordered two cases.

[Guest]

RAM Aircraft of Texas, likely overhauls more big bore TCM engines than anyone does not recommend semi synthetic oils ie. Aeroshell 15W50. Here's the link:

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenance-Tips/Oil-Recommendations.htm

Clarence

[carl]

i use aeroshell 15w 50  cause my pilot mentor said that is what they were using in it before so don't change.

 

I did my first oil change a couple of weeks ago , not too messy. 25 hours . I think oil should be changd sooner then 25 hours 

because the small particles ,33 microns and below,that get through the fillter are what really destroy the engines.

 

I used blackstone oil analyse . they said "hey send us another sample next oil change , keep doing what your doing"

so Im not changing oils

 

I wish I could beat the shipping  on the online orders.

[PTK]

Carl, try xrs235's tip on

http://www.kellerheartt.com/mobile/Category.aspx?id=102&page=2

Use code: oil5

Free shipping on top of a nice discount!

[Hank]

I use Aero Shell 15W50. New oil (7 qts) and filter (CH 48-110) every 50 hours. Generally get 10-12 hours before adding any, but time gradually reduces to 5-6 for the last one if I don't change it around 45.

I used to buy it from my on-field A&P as needed. Since I moved and it's now so close, I fly round Spruce and get a couple of cases since $18 per case S&H is ridiculous. There's usually something else I need anyway (I know them when I see them on the shelves . . .).

[jetdriven]

I am currently using Exxon Elite 20w-50...  The previous owner used this and said that it contains some additives similar to camguard to keep the cam nice and wet.   I am no chemist, but I believed him, as his breadth of knowledge was impressive.. 

 

I've started to add Avblend as well, at the advice from some very experienced guys locally here... I was told it would mitigate risk of a stuck valve, which I have heard of killing motors.. 

 

On the advice of others and my CFI and A&P who operate a 6 plane fleet doing 100 hour inspections ever month, changing oil every 25 hours and filter at 100hour inspection is how to get long life out of your motor..   So, I trust their advice, as they are way more experienced than most of us.. 

Oil filter changes at 100 hours?   I have never seen anything that allows going past 50 hours for an oil filter change from any source... Really, it sounds like a reckless way to save 50c an hour, because you can change the filter at 50hr and it costs 20$.  But you miss any evidence the oil filter can reveal because you ran it 100hr instead of 50hr. 

[jetdriven]

Thanks for the tip xrs!! That's a great deal indeed on the absolute premium aviation piston engine oil!

Especially with the free shipping on top of the discount. Free shipping is unheard of on oil!

I ordered two cases.

"Abaolute premium aviation oil"

 

Perhaps you can answer these points:

1. Camguard contains 25 times the level of rust inhibitor than the Aeroshell products, and demonstrates vastly superior rust protection. Shell cannot increase the level of rust inhibitor in their oil because the type of chemistry (acid ester) they are using causes bearing corrosion problems at increased concentration.

 

2. degradation of the b-TPP itself in the engine. It decomposes (through hydrolysis) in the presence of water, heat and metal all of which are found in abundance in an engine. When Shell changed to b-TTP, from methylated triphenyl phosphate, which is better known as TCP, because of neurotoxicity issues, people reported copper in their oil analysis went from 5 to 250ppm.

 

3. how the PAO oil can carry away lead deposits and sludge when 100% PAO Mobil AV1 ruined thousands of engines and was withdrawn from the market.

 

 

 

 

from source:   http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=79247&start=20

 

"Thank you for the opportunity to comment on Bob Ripley’s misunderstandings about Camguard. He states that if you use Aeroshell W100Plus there is no reason to use Camguard as the “corrosion inhibitor” is already in the Shell product. As I will explain, this is incorrect and I will also explain a couple of related issues.

The Aeroshell W100Plus (and 15W-50) contains 0.05% of a ferrous metal rust inhibitor, 0.05% of a yellow metal (copper) corrosion inhibitor and 0.9% of a butylated/ isopropylated triphenyl phosphate, b-TPP, antiscuff/antiwear (LW-16702) to meet the Lycoming SB 446E and SI 1409C for scuffing.

Camguard contains 25 times the level of rust inhibitor than the Aeroshell products, and demonstrates vastly superior rust protection. Shell cannot increase the level of rust inhibitor in their oil because the type of chemistry (acid ester) they are using causes bearing corrosion problems at increased concentration. Camguard uses different chemistry. So if you use Camguard WITH the Aeroshell W100Plus you end up with 26 times (1x from the Plus and 25X from the Camguard) the level of rust inhibitor over the W100 alone. I recommend using AeroShell W100 or Phillips 20W-50 oils as they are cheaper than the W100Plus and they are good platforms for Camguard.

There are two other issues concerning the Plus and the 15W-50. The b-TPP, in the Aeroshell and Lycoming LW-16702, is a good antiwear but it is a very good friction modifier. This is very important when using these products in Continental engines utilizing starter adapters. A new or “in spec” starter adapter will not have a problem with this compound, however, a worn or marginal adapter will often slip (starter turning but prop not turning) when using oils with this additive. It is not uncommon to have an older adapter start slipping when changing over to the Shell products for the first time. If an adapter starts slipping, changing the oil back to an unadditized oil (w100) will often stop the slipping. However, this is usually only temporary as slipping causes changes to the starter adapter sleeve friction fit and the adapter will eventually need to be serviced.

I was very careful to not use anything in Camguard that would reduce the friction and cause starter adapter problems. And the anti-wear components in Camguard protect the shaft and spring surfaces from wearing.

The final issue with the 100Plus is the degradation of the b-TPP itself in the engine. It decomposes (through hydrolysis) in the presence of water, heat and metal all of which are found in abundance in an engine. When Shell changed to b-TTP, from methylated triphenyl phosphate, which is better known as TCP, because of neurotoxicity issues, people reported copper in their oil analysis went from 5 to 250ppm. This increase was due to the breakdown of the butylated triphenyl phosphate to an oil soluble form of phosphoric acid.

Shell responded to this problem not by yanking the offending agent out of their oil but rather by adding a good slug of copper inhibitor. This protected the copper but left the acids in place to attack other things. The seals in the engine are susceptible to acid attack, with the silicone seals the most sensitive. With the Shell 100Plus, the silicon levels are usually higher in oil analysis and the air filter most often gets the blame. The good news is that the seal conditioners in Camguard mitigate this problem altogether. So in actuality, you SHOULD use Camguard with AeroShell W100PLUS, 15W-50 and Lycoming LW-16702 for the multiple reasons just described.

If Mr. Ripley or any other people on your staff have any technical questions about Camguard, lubricants or fuels they should feel free to contact me.

Regards,

Ed

Edward Kollin

Technical Director

Aircraft Specialties Lubricants"

[StinkBug]

FYI, if you combine some other stuff with your order from Pilotshop.com you can get free shipping as well. I have a case of oil and a new main gear tire in my shopping cart right now with free shipping listed.