Knocked Up

[mike_elliott]

Thanks guys.  I'm solidly in the single engine unpressurized category, if for no other reason for the sake of budget.  I'd love to look at a TBM 700 C2... guess I need a reason to work harder.  I recently rode right seat in a TBM 850.  Take my advise- don't do that!

 

 

Watching the fuel flow on a TBM brings me back to reality when I am sitting up front in a TBM, otherwise I probably be homeless now.

[AndyFromCB]

Watching the fuel flow on a TBM brings me back to reality when I am sitting up front in a TBM, otherwise I probably be homeless now.

 

Actually, if you think about it, it's not much worse than the Bravo, per nm, considering Jet A is about 60% of 100LL with contract pricing…At top speed, you're doing about 8nm/100LL gallon equivalent…In the Bravo, you're doing 9nm/gallon of 100LL…It's a wash and actually, taking the headwinds into account, you're actually ahead in the TBM per nm. Maintenance is about the same, if not slightly less because nothing ever breaks. It's the insurance and note payments that are 10x the cost of Bravo.

[Houman]

Congrats, what I would recommend is getting into a very good set of ANR for the baby and also protecting the ears even more with earplugs under the ANR headsets. At that very young age, the hearing damage can be substantial. I have switched my 9 year old son's Kids quality passive head sets to a nice Bose ANR and he sleeps during most of my flights...

 

When I had leased a Beech C23 Sundowner before buying my Mooney, we would go into the local flight school exercise area and he would have at the commands and make it like a roller coaster at the six flags( with me always on the controls as well ), he even flow once a 35 minute flight all by himself, beside the takeoff, landing and occasional ruder touché since he is not tall enough to reach them. I haven't done any of that with the mooney, too afraid of letting him have his way with the laminar wings and the speed of the Rocket.

[Jsavage3]

First of all, congrats on the addition to the family!

 

Kids in a J-model Mooney?  Absolutely, but that does depend on the size of the adults...  Leaving the dogs at home (kennel) is likely going to decrease your frustration level.  Dirty diapers in flight?  You probably won't even know it's a dirty one until you land.  My wife & I have flown countless hours with our two sons and have yet to ever change a diaper in flight...with the boys in the car seats in the back, we're typically unaware of a bad diaper until we land and start deplaning.  Yes, we have used the horizontal stab as a diaper changing table.  The most difficult and frustrating task for me was getting the boys into their car seats & buckled in prior to flight...at 7 & 8 years old now, they no longer ride in car seats and they can buckle up themselves now which makes my life much easier (something for you to look forward too!).  Kmyfm20s had a great idea above with "buy a designated baby seat for the plane and save yourself the frustration of taking it in and out all the time."  He had another idea that I thought was a great one for any Mooney families with only one child..."With the baby behind the pilot seat and the passenger seat slid all the way back your wife will have good access to the kiddo, worked well for us."

 

If you end up with more than 2 kids, the Mooney probably won't fit the bill anymore unless you can get away with buying a camper...

 

My wife & I weigh 310-lbs together...I weigh 175 and she weighs xxx... ...I learned that lesson many years ago...our sons now weigh 130 lbs together (and growing fast).  With our J, we can take full fuel, 100-lbs baggage, the four of us and takeoff at 2740-lbs, which is max gross takeoff weight.  As the boys grow, I intend to use a combination of less baggage and reduced fuel load to maintain the W&B requirements for the J.  With the family on board, I typically plan on 3-hour flights with 4-hours being the maximum allowed for "comfort & keep-them-smiling" considerations...so the reduced fuel plan for the future will have little impact on our J operations.  Loading and unloading is the most "troublesome" issue I have to deal with and, thanks to the MAPA Mooney Manual", I've adopted their loading technique of I climb in first, followed by the boys in the back and finally my wife climbs into the right front seat...we reverse this operation for deplaning.  Once we're in, we find it very comfortable with great airflow in summer and plenty of heat in the winter.  Combine that with oxygen available for those above-9,000-foot flights (no headaches), an altitude-hold auto-pilot and I-pod music = we glide along happy as could be at 160 KTAS and < 10 GPH.  At 180 mph and 20 sm/gal, life just doesn't get any better than that.  If you can make four seats work, the efficiency of the Mooney just can't be beat.

 

I have two children from a previous marriage who live with my ex-wife...they live nearby and we see them all the time.  My wife & I spent many hours a couple of years ago discussing the possibilities of selling our J for a 6-seater...likely a Cherokee 6 or Lance/Saratoga type.  After much deliberation, we elected to keep the J and buy a camper for our "once-a-year" trip that includes all 6 of us.  We felt that once-a-year trip just didn't justify the purchase & operating expenses involved...and I knew I'd always be grumpy with the cost-per-mile...especially when I had empty seats which would be most of the time.  We've been very happy with our decision!  

 

Another plug for our Mooney -- just yesterday, I delivered our J to the mechanic's shop (75nm away) for it's annual.  It was arranged that they would fly me back in their Continental IO-470 powered Debonair...beautiful airplane!  Alas, I did not like it and just fell all the deeper in love with our J.  In cruise flight and 14 GPH, the KIAS were less than I see in our J at 9 GPH...you knew I was going to say that, right?  I sat in the right front seat.  Climbing in & out was slightly easier than the J, but the sitting comfort left me disappointed.  Sitting straight up and with my right shoulder brushing the door, my headphone's right ear cup was nearly touching the window...it may have had one inch of clearance.  It was so close that I was worried about my headphones scratching the plexi-glass window...I actually turned and looked at it closely expecting to see scratches and was hoping they weren't from me!  In-flight visibility may have been slightly better than our J, but not enough to get excited about.

 

So, there's my plug for family fun and a J.  

[mike_elliott]

Actually, if you think about it, it's not much worse than the Bravo, per nm, considering Jet A is about 60% of 100LL with contract pricing…At top speed, you're doing about 8nm/100LL gallon equivalent…In the Bravo, you're doing 9nm/gallon of 100LL…It's a wash and actually, taking the headwinds into account, you're actually ahead in the TBM per nm. Maintenance is about the same, if not slightly less because nothing ever breaks. It's the insurance and note payments that are 10x the cost of Bravo.

 

Yea, I tried the "its not much more than a Bravo" approach on the finance committee, she wasn't buying into it. That said, look at the grin on her face in the back of one....That's my angle now...

"Honey, you deserve the best!"

[Super Dave]

I'll offer an alternative to the "baby in back-spouse in front" option. We started taking our oldest on trips in light planes when he was 3mos. old and still nursing. My wife would sit in back with the rear-facing carseat; that way if she needed to, she could take him out of the seat once we were airborne. Her habit was to start nursing 30 min from destination because we had read that nursing helps babies equalize their ears in the descent. Gear extension was her signal to strap the little guy back into his seat. 

 

Now that both kids are out of car seats, my wife still prefers to ride in back with one of the kids, while the other rides up front with me. With the front seat slid forwardish, she feels like the backseat is more comfortable than the front.

[smccray]

Thanks for the thoughts guys!

 

Absolutely, but that does depend on the size of the adults...  

 

 

I suppose that's part of the problem.  I'm not a small guy, and my wife is 5'9" with long legs.  She rides in the front right seat pushed all the way back and she's still uncomfortable.  I usually fly in the left seat, but last fall I rode in the right of an F model.  I found out that the right seat is pushed over to the side much more than the left seat.  We all know that the Mooney reputation for a small cabin is undeserved, but I will say that the right seat is less comfortable that the left.

 

The other challenge I have is that my wife's preferred destination is probably Denver.  Dallas to Denver in the J is a 4 hour trip, and in the summer it's hot to descend into the bumps and stretch legs.  3 hours is a piece of cake, but 4 starts getting uncomfortable.  We've flown that trip both with and without the stop and the 4 hour flight is preferable to descending into the heat and then climbing back into a hot airplane. 

 

I'm not in a hurry to sell at this point, but I have decided that the next plane will have A/C.  There's no doubt in my mind that my wife would be smiling int he back of a TBM, but that's not an option ... yet.

 

Congrats on the new baby! Take out the passenger side back seats. You will have a lot more room for the dogs and bags. If you plan on flying a lot buy a designated baby seat for the plane and save yourself the frustration of taking in and out all the time. You can always put a blanket on top of the bags for the dogs if you have to bring that much stuff along. With the baby behind the pilot seat and the passenger seat slid all the way back your wife will have good access to the kiddo, worked well for us.

 

We usually travel with the rear seats folded and the plane packed to the gills.  I have 640 lbs of useful load with full fuel, so I don't have any complains there.  

 

If we weighed 310 lbs together we'd probably be in good shape.  We're not that light.

[Mooney20]

Both my daughters, now 27 and 23, took their first airplane ride to grandparent's house when they were 3 1/2 weeks old. They grew up in a Mooney. In a J model Mooney with kids, one has to learn to pack light and tight. When loading the baggage compartment, my mantra was if there was a space, find a piece of baggage that fit it.

The dogs will have to stay home.

[Marauder]

Both my daughters, now 27 and 23, took their first airplane ride to grandparent's house when they were 3 1/2 weeks old. They grew up in a Mooney. In a J model Mooney with kids, one has to learn to pack light and tight. When loading the baggage compartment, my mantra was if there was a space, find a piece of baggage that fit it.

The dogs will have to stay home.

Same story for me. Two kids and things were fine until the teenage years and then on a few vacations I ended up renting a bigger plane. They grow up fast, don't want to fly with Mommy and Daddy, want their independence and then finally move out. So the temptation is to upsize at some point. I'm glad I didn't. All the money I saved on fuel and cost for a larger plane is now in my panel and hopefully soon in my interior and paint.

[aviatoreb]

Poor doggies. Its not just the airplane - doggies just don't get the same attention as center of the young couples universe when babies come along. We had a beautiful Samoyed and a Belgian Shepard when our first baby (now 18) was born. Its hard to spend the same time with the dogs. Today is my next boy's birthday - he's 17.

[Ragsf15e]

Can someone tell me a bit more about actually operating with kids in the plane - what did you use for ear protection?  I can see small kids ripping out ear plugs and pushing off headsets.

 

What about altitudes you were comfortable with?  Baby at 11.5k good to go?  I fly in the Rockies... might need 13.5k!

 

What about strollers... just find a foldable one and shove it in the back?

 

Thanks guys, this is priceless info!

 

Rags

[Marauder]

Can someone tell me a bit more about actually operating with kids in the plane - what did you use for ear protection? I can see small kids ripping out ear plugs and pushing off headsets.

What about altitudes you were comfortable with? Baby at 11.5k good to go? I fly in the Rockies... might need 13.5k!

What about strollers... just find a foldable one and shove it in the back?

Thanks guys, this is priceless info!

Rags

There are kid sized headsets available. I started flying with my daughter when she was around a year old. Kids obviously have smaller Eustachian tubes and you need to be careful not to fly with them when they have a cold. My daughter was prone to ear infections and you fly with that one time, you learn never to do it again.

Keep the descents gentle and give them something to suck on like a sucker to help keep the ear passages clear.

We had a stroller that was collapsible but wasn't bulky. We used it with both of our kids.

[carusoam]

A good CB selection of hearing protection is available from Sears tool department...

It's not like they are listening to the ATC broadcast. They don't tell you you what their questions are...

Kids heads are so big from day one.

Let me know if you can measure their O2 saturation using their little fingers....

Ditch the idea of using a stroller...

They are like Cessnas for children... ( no child wants that... )

Learn to use the back-pack style of baby carrier. Solo over-head loading of a child into the backpack takes some practice... ( yes, lifting a child over your head by yourself and flipping them to go feet first into the back pack )

Make sure both legs come through the separate holes before letting go.

[Marauder]

A good CB selection of hearing protection is available from Sears tool department...

It's not like they are listening to the ATC broadcast. They don't tell you you what their questions are...

Kids heads are so big from day one.

Let me know if you can measure their O2 saturation using their little fingers....

Ditch the idea of using a stroller...

They are like Cessnas for children... ( no child wants that... )

Learn to use the back-pack style of baby carrier. Solo over-head loading of a child into the backpack takes some practice... ( yes, lifting a child over your head by yourself and flipping them to go feet first into the back pack )

Make sure both legs come through the separate holes before letting go.

The advantage is you are completely mobile for all day touring, beach going and whatever...

By the time a second child comes to town, your wife will be looking forward to a second back pack carrier.

Imagine, for a moment, being the guy pushing a stroller through a mall in tight quarters.... Never mind.

From real life M20C experience....

Best regards,

-a-

You mean to tell me that you loaded up a kid in an airplane and then flew someplace where you walked a mall?!

The Papoose thing (http://www.miamily.com/?gclid=CMybj4LbosQCFUY9gQod3GEAiA) or the rear loading one Anthony is talking about (http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=3400511) work fine for the really young, but if you are taking them somewhere where you want them to do some walking (like a zoo), the loading and unloading is a pain.

They make some lightweight collapsible strollers like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Summer-Infant-Convenience-Stroller-Green/dp/B00O20OIKC/ref=sr_1_32?s=baby-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1426160121&sr=1-32

As for the headsets, I forgot about the ones Anthony mentioned. I used those as well and one of them I still use on my tractor. They are light and cheap but do a nice job: http://www.seton.com/3m-peltor-hi-viz-earmuffs-vc1096.html?keycode=WS0194&gclid=CLSRtILdosQCFUY9gQod3GEAiA&kwid=productads-plaid%5E96974304482-sku%5EVC1096-adType%5EPLA-device%5Et-adid%5E57256849802

[mooniac15u]

I found that a cheap umbrella stroller like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Cosco-Juvenile-Umbrella-Stroller-American/dp/B00JH4DYSK/ref=sr_1_8?s=baby-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1426164598&sr=1-8&keywords=umbrella+stroller was small enough to fit in the back of my M20D.  You can usually find them at WalMart or Babys-R-Us in the $10-$15 range.  At that price I was willing to abandon one if we acquired too much stuff during the trip.

 

For hearing protection we started out with something similar to what Marauder recommends and then moved up to the Sigtronics S-20Y youth headset for a couple years http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/aviation-headsets/sigtronics-headsets/sigtronics-s-20y-youth-system-headset.html. They fit pretty well on small heads and the kids liked being able to hear us on the intercom.  Once the kids were about 3 they each got a pair of David Clark ANR headsets.

[DanM20C]

For Hearing protection we started these when they were less than 1.  Ems 4 Bubs

 

Then switched them over to these after one.  Pilot USA  They seem fairly durable and should last a long time.  They will send an adult headband free of charge to allow them to grow with the child.  But I think once my girls will need a bigger headband, a good set of ANR with Bluetooth will be in order.

 

Many flights my girls refuse to wear their headsets.  I don't force them too, mainly because that won't work.  I have been flying my whole life starting around 6mo.  My dad gave me a pair of headsets as a 17th birthday/congratulations passing your private present.  I had never worn any before that and my hearing is still quite good.  So I figured if my kids start making a regular habit of wearing them by the time they are 3 they will be light years ahead of me. 

 

We have done all sorts of stroller and baby back pack combinations.  I think the overall best value has been the cheep umbrella stroller that mooniac14u listed above.  We actually did abandon one the sake of room once. 

[carusoam]

For clarity....?

The back packs, like everything else, have evolved....

In the early stage, the front mounted one works for a while. Later, back mounted children are better for the parent.

The ones we used (17 years ago...)were molded plastic and fabric, low cost and light. Less is more.

They worked well at the Jersey Shore. 5 mile walks on the boardwalk were bearable.

As the kids get larger, they go on your shoulders, no need for equipment. 5 mile walk gets challenging depending on your combined weight. You have time to train....

When they do the walk themselves, they get rewarded with pizza and soda or something better for them?

We bought them, initially, for traveling. They worked so well they got used at the mall...

Solo loading (overhead flip) is good for Dads. Works well for shoulder rides too! The kids learn where to put their legs.

Moms may consider one of the more complex devices that can be loaded on a table, followed by saddling up.

Once you push a carriage through a Jersey mall or a grocery store, the back pack starts looking brilliant.

This is Boy Scout training applied to parenthood...

It is really cool to be young and have a Mooney!!!

Parenthood goes by, so Mooney fast, it's hard to remember,

-a-

[mooniac15u]

Backpack carriers are useful for some. Others prefer strollers. Strollers are far more practical at amusement parks where there is a lot of in and out and a 3-year-old won't last all day on their feet.

[RocketAviator]

Scott, First congratulations.  I have 3 children and 7 grandchildren.  The children were grown by the time I had much GA opportunity.  Now my grandchildren are another story, they collectively have flown hundreds of hours with me.  I have flown them with me in my 6 seat Saratoga with AC and now my Rocket as you can see in the images attached.  My grandson Dawsen has flown with me for over 10 years since about 18 months of age and my youngest granddaughter since she was about 3 months old, now 2 years old.  I have had the gambit of almost anything I can think of including spilled foods, diaper changes and only one throw up!  I also take our highly trained in personal protection & obedient Doberman along frequently and have had the gambit with the dog as well. 

 

I will share a few things I can think of that I hope helps

 

Altitude is something to carefully consider for pets and children (one of my Mooney friends a Anesthesiologist specializing in children who is on MS, gave me an elephant O2 mask for children which I have hooked up to my O2 system, we make a game out of it and now frequently use when having to fly anything above 8k for any length of time which is almost always in my world, I have an oximeter and use it on the children as well, either finger for older or toe for younger).  I never fly higher than 11k with the dog.

 

Change of altitude particularly descending seems to be the biggest issue (I limit my decent to an agonizing 200 or max 300' max with young children, often need to advise ATC that I need a shallow decent, they have never given me any trouble.... just seems to take forever!)  The older the children the faster we descend, especially when they learn to equalize their ear by holding their nose and blowing frequently.

 

Taking off is also something we found that we needed to work them into.  I take each of the children for short rides to get them use to take off and landing... some of these short flights have been more than a little interesting.  Biggest thing I have found is go easy on first few flights, shallow accent and descents but especially accents on first flights then I pay more attention to my descents from the high altitudes!  The first several takeoffs seems to get everyone of them....

 

Space & weight is just something you learn to work around if possible and sometimes is just something that you cant work around.  For example I make all the children ride in a car seat or car booster chair until they are of size (I don't care about age) where the seat belt should protect them.

I give them all headsets and things to play with during the flight and talk to them during the flight.

When they are very young my wife rides in the back seat next to the car seat to keep them company.

We keep ALL the necessary resources readily available when we fly with children (wipees, diapers, diaper bags, drinks, snacks, pee bottles, towels, toys, O2 Mask...) sounds like a lot but we would not trade the time and experiences we have had with them in the airplane for anything!

With 3 of my grandchildren living more than 8 hrs by car and 2 hrs in our plane, the plane has afforded us precious time with them that otherwise could not have occurred.

We have taken GA trips with our grandchildren to Yellowstone Park, Montana, Wyoming, NM, Colorado, all parts of Texas, Oklahoma and more!  This year Dawsen has asked if he could go with me to Oshkosh!!

 

I hope you get the opportunity to share and enjoy the benefits and challenges of GA with your family as I have with mine!

 

When my youngest granddaughter of less than 2 years sees or hears an airplane she says Papa Airplane... Papa Airplane.. Priceless!

[Ragsf15e]

Thanks for all the great ideas and encouragement guys.  Good to see it's possible to keep flying even with very young kids!

[carusoam]

Remember, if grandparents are 200nm away...

1.5 hours in an M20C beats 6 hours in a firebird to visit the same grandparents....

The number of plane trips per month is similar to the number of car trips per year.

Shortest (total time) plane trip to visit the grandparents: out and back for lunch!

Shortest (total time) car trip: At least, two days. Exhausted going to work on Monday.

Car trips we could not have made: Christmas with the grandparents with all the "stuff"...

When the kids are really young the stuff is in the back under a blanket, they don't know it.

When the kids are a few years old, a second trip is an easy Mooney solution.

Trying to make flying fun while descending through bumpy air, priceless!

Ziploc bags and baby wipes,

-a-

[Amelia]

So much good advice.

1. Congratulations, bon voyage on the next twenty- plus year ride.

2. a J has plenty of room for a family of 3, or even 4, minus the doggies. The dogs of GA travelers I know seem to love going to puppy camp, much better than strange places, being cooped up, needy, and sometimes unwelcome. Just look around for a good one, or hire a neighbor to come dote on them at home.

3. As in 3 cheers for baby carriers. I owned a stroller, but rarely took it anywhere, as papoosing was definitely the way to go when they were tiny. They were happier as toddlers up high with a view in a frame carrier, patting mom on the head, than they were stuffed in a stroller. By the time they were mobile, we endured the scornful gazes of disapproval when we were in crowded places, and used toddler leashes. Saved all sorts of panic, and granted them a tiny sense of autonomy.

4. Packing light is so freeing. Any hotel has a place to bed the baby, so lose the pack'n'play. Don't laugh, but a new baby is perfectly fine in a blanket-lined bureau drawer. Our toddlers wanted to either snuggle with us or "camp out" on the floor cocooned in a spare blanket. they're quite flexible. The less cargo you have, the easier and more carefree travel becomes. Seriously. No need to dress fancy or take a lot of just-in-case stuff. You just then have to pack it, haul it, fit it in, take it out, haul it, unpack it, repack it, haul it, fit it in, rinse, repeat.

5. Babies usually sleep peacefully while flying. Nursing on ascent and descent makes ear blocks much less of an issue.

6. The smartest world traveler I know, now in her mid-90s, says "all I need is my passport and my credit card." She vagabonds for months at a time, still, with a roll-aboard suitcase.That thought goes for families, too. You will rarely be more than half a block from a place to replenish your supply of diapers, wet-wipes, and other necessities.