Proper pattern etiquette question?

[frcabot]

One thing that may help in the future is to give your position reports in a way that VFR pilots can understand, as well as Instrument pilots without the plate open in front of them. As a student pilot, I once sat at the hold short while someone was on a practice approach, then they called the miss, and I had no idea what it meant. Never saw them go by; a couple minutes later, still waiting, they didn't answer my call about where they were . . .

It's easy to get caught up in procedures and reports when practicing, but if the people in the pattern don't speak the language, and don't know where the FAF is, you're speaking but not communicating.

This. When I'm on an ifr approach to an untowered I'll call out "x miles from the airport, altitude, and straight in." But I'll only continue straight in if there's no vfr traffic in the pattern.

But the courteous thing to do is to follow the approach down to tpa and then join the pattern with the vfr traffic. Ifr traffic, let alone fake ifr traffic, does not have priority over vfr traffic when it comes to landing priority.

[frcabot]

I've been using the rule drilled into me while doing my PPL at an untowered airport, the guiding philosophy was to be courteous and safe:

The aircraft that called "final" has priority; if someone called final I was expected to find him and extend downwind and watch him/her go by on final before starting my base turn.

Don't call final until on 2-3 mile final (again a courtesy item, so you don't create unnecessary delays)

It felt like common sense then and does so now so I use it under the hood as well.

If true this would encourage everyone to do straight in approaches. This is not the rule. Of course, better to be safe than right but dead.

[frcabot]

When flying jets into VFR airports, generally the prop guys are super courteous and allow us to land straight-in even if they have to extend. We really appreciate it. What a lot of prop guys don't realize is how poor the visibility can be out of some jets once they are in the pattern making turns. We really have to depend on our TCAS a lot and hope that everyone has a transponder and radio.

Every once in awhile, some prop guy seems to take pleasure in making us go around. It is lawful to use one's legal right, but in the big picture, is safety served?

Our worst "night" mare is flying into a VFR airport at night and being unaware of a nordo/no transponder aircraft on final with only a single white light on the tail visible to the faster moving jet behind it. There, but for the grace of God.....

This scares all of us, believe me. Nordo aircraft are terrifying. But it's even worse during the day, I think.

[chrisk]

I appreciate the alternate viewpoint chrisk, and I also think that straight-in VFR approaches are "sometimes" rude. I have a question for you though...

 

Did your described experience happen on Sunday by any chance? The winds in the area of Brenham (11R) were very strong with wind aloft at 1,000' around 35 kts. On a practice approach at Eagle Lake my groundspeed was down below 70 kts and it seemed to take FOREVER to get from the FAF to the runway. I agree that position calls are frequently way off the mark, but it's possible that the guy was closer than you thought. The one thing I've learned from having full-time traffic on the iPad is that a plane can be only 2 miles away and still very difficult to spot. At 4 miles distant it's nearly impossible to see them in many cases.

 

Now with that being said, there are multiple places to practice RNAV Approaches (like those at Brenham) so I prefer to stay away from active airports for that. As busy as the cafe is there on the weekends I wouldn't go there to shoot approaches.  But there are very few places to work on an ILS so you pretty much have to go where they're available.

 

Cnoe

 

Hi Cnoe,

It was Saturday, but the winds were still quite strong. And you have a good point on planes being hard to spot.  I really hate flying practice approaches at non towered airports. The worst is flying an ILS to minimums on the non active runway, when there is other traffic in the pattern!   Fortunately, there is a towered military airport near me (KGRK) with an  ILS and VOR approach.

[John Pleisse]

The Lord hath no pity for C-172's doing B-747 patterns. Likewise, "say your active", followed by the proverbial "taking the active", fully complimented with..... "traffic advise",  are also sinful, IMHO. I don't like pattern people who overtly abuse "lower", "ahead of" and "right of way". You were cut off. 

[Marauder]

The Lord hath no pity for C172's doing B-747 patterns. Likewise, "say your active", followed by the proverbial "taking the active", followed by "traffic advise" are also sinful, IMHO. I don't like pattern people who overtly abuse "lower", "ahead of" and "right of way". You were cut off.

You missed my ALL time favorite call "Cessna XYZ departing the pattern, LAST CALL". I don't know whether to say a prayer for the poor souls in that plane or run to the bar to get my order in".

"Last call" -- what knucklehead came up with that one?

[flyboy0681]

"Last call" -- what knucklehead came up with that one?

 

 

In 35 years of flying I've never heard that.

 

When in the pattern do you identify yourself as "Mooney one two alpha" or "Red and white Mooney"?

[Marauder]

In 35 years of flying I've never heard that.

When in the pattern do you identify yourself as "Mooney one two alpha" or "Red and white Mooney"?

Not sure where you are based, but I hear it a lot in my neck of the woods. As for my ID, I always use Mooney and the last 3 of my N number.

[Mooneymite]

I like NORAD's "Unknown Rider" as the perfect call sign.

 

You don't know who I am, where I am, or if I care!

[Andy95W]

The Lord hath no pity for C-172's doing B-747 patterns. Likewise, "say your active", followed by the proverbial "taking the active", fully complimented by..... "traffic advise",  are also sinful, IMHO. I don't like pattern people who overtly abuse "lower", "ahead of" and "right of way". You were cut off.

If I hear someone say, "any traffic in the area please advise" more than once I ask him what he needs advice on.

[cnoe]

I don't know whether to say a prayer for the poor souls in that plane or run to the bar to get my order in".

 

 

+1 for "run to the bar".

 

Cnoe

[Hank]

In 35 years of flying I've never heard that.

 

When in the pattern do you identify yourself as "Mooney one two alpha" or "Red and white Mooney"?

I've always used model and number; don't recall if it's required to do so by FAA or FCC.

Going into Sun n Fun was the only time I ever answered to "red and white Mooney," but I've never called myself that in the air.

[cliffy]

Just had one tonight. I'm 16 out and a B99 commuter was 28 out. Both of us straight in. Knowing he's 100 kts faster (I asked) and figuring he'd have to go around as we'd both be 3 mile final at about the same time I just slid over a bit, slowed 20 kts and told him to keep it coming. He was clearing the runway when I was a 2 mile final. No big deal. Didn't change my ETA by 2 mins. Just have to work with folks, that's all.

[PTK]

You missed my ALL time favorite call "Cessna XYZ departing the pattern, LAST CALL". I don't know whether to say a prayer for the poor souls in that plane or run to the bar to get my order in".

"Last call" -- what knucklehead came up with that one?

Clearly this is encrypted pilot bar jargon! Run for the bar would be the appropriate response.

"...any traffic in the area please advise..." and "...last call..." are pilot bar jargon. Notice they're on UNICOM!

One is looking for any bars in the vicinity of the field and in the other, the bartender is announcing last call before bar closes!

[Wildhorsesracing]

If I hear someone say, "any traffic in the area please advise" more than once I ask him what he needs advice on.

 

I always reply with the AWOS frequency... 

[Hank]

My favorite bozo event happened one evening after work, right at dusk. I was headed out with my CFII on a training flight, needed my landing light to taxi with.

 

Just as I am rotating on Runway 8, 3001' with trees not far from the end, comes this voice over the radio, the first other voice I've heard since engine start:  "Lawrence County traffic, Cessna XXX, 1 mile east, any traffic please advise."

 

First I cleaned up and cleared the trees, then looked and saw him much less than a mile out and 1/4 mile to my left, headed west at maybe 1000' agl . . . apparently wanting to land.

 

I was talking before I spotted him, including "departing Runway 8" for the second time, but didn't say what I wanted to say. Hopefully it bothered him as much as it did me. If I'd been headed to land on 26 at my sleepy hometown field at dark, ignoring the radio, and somebody came busting over the trees with a landing light in my eyes it would bother me . . . But then again, I'm not a bozo, I called taxi to hold short, I called my 2000' back taxi and I called departure.

 

"Life is hard. Life is harder when you're stupid."—John Wayne

[Cruiser]

sometimes when it is busy, I have used the phrase, "Port Clinton traffic, lookout! N99MS is ..(insert action here)....., Port Clinton traffic."

 

It seems to get everyone's attention, and I want them to "look out" the window. Seems appropriate.

[flyboy0681]

I've always used model and number; don't recall if it's required to do so by FAA or FCC.

Going into Sun n Fun was the only time I ever answered to "red and white Mooney," but I've never called myself that in the air.

 

Not sure if I could say that it's "common", but I hear it often down here.

[AndyFromCB]

"Cessna xxxMA, Mooney xxxRD RNAV 18 Approach, 2 mile final, mind extending your downwind just a bit?"

 

"Cessna xxxMA, turning base, runway 18"

 

"Mooney xxxRD, well, I always wanted a biplane"

[ArtVandelay]

I was taught not to bother using tail number at uncontrolled airports, just like when reporting in NY Hudson corridor SFRA.

[AndyFromCB]

I was taught not to bother using tail number at uncontrolled airports, just like when reporting in NY Hudson corridor SFRA.

 

That doesn't work very well at airports with a big flight school. Too many damn identical Cessnas in the pattern all at once.

[ArtVandelay]

That doesn't work very well at airports with a big flight school. Too many damn identical Cessnas in the pattern all at once.

But you don't need to distinguish between them, you just need to know if your are on a collision course

[cnoe]

I'm sure it happens all the time now, but here's my close encounter yesterday...

 

Me:  "Mooney XXX 6 miles west at 2,100' inbound to FREEP intersection for procedure turn outbound and practice ILS 17 approach."

 

Other plane: Silence...

 

Me: (looking at ADS-B traffic display w/ a bogey inbound to FREEP on ILS course)... "Mooney XXX 4 miles west at 2,100' inbound to FREEP intersection, have traffic on screen approaching FREEP, looking."

 

Other plane: Silence...

 

Me: (after spotting and avoiding the inbound bogey)... "Mooney XXX have inbound traffic in sight and will stay clear of approach course then rejoin for procedure turn inbound and ILS 17 approach, low approach only. Will follow landing traffic as #2."

 

Other plane (Cessna): Silence

 

Me: (inbound on ILS at FAF)... "Mooney XXX 5 miles north at FREEP inbound for ILS 17 low approach only, #2."

 

Cessna (FINALLY): "Cessna ABC, 2 mile final for 17 on ILS practice approach: we'll be going around."

 

REALLY?!! He didn't hear me, see me, or make a single radio call until on 2 mile final. At least he had his transponder on.

 

Cnoe

 

P.S. He ended up doing a touch-and-go instead of the missed approach that he called on the radio.

[Marauder]

I'm sure it happens all the time now, but here's my close encounter yesterday...

Me: "Mooney XXX 6 miles west at 2,100' inbound to FREEP intersection for procedure turn outbound and practice ILS 17 approach."

Other plane: Silence...

Me: (looking at ADS-B traffic display w/ a bogey inbound to FREEP on ILS course)... "Mooney XXX 4 miles west at 2,100' inbound to FREEP intersection, have traffic on screen approaching FREEP, looking."

Other plane: Silence...

Me: (after spotting and avoiding the inbound bogey)... "Mooney XXX have inbound traffic in sight and will stay clear of approach course then rejoin for procedure turn inbound and ILS 17 approach, low approach only. Will follow landing traffic as #2."

Other plane (Cessna): Silence

Me: (inbound on ILS at FAF)... "Mooney XXX 5 miles north at FREEP inbound for ILS 17 low approach only, #2."

Cessna (FINALLY): "Cessna ABC, 2 mile final for 17 on ILS practice approach: we'll be going around."

REALLY?!! He didn't hear me, see me, or make a single radio call until on 2 mile final. At least he had his transponder on.

Cnoe

P.S. He ended up doing a touch-and-go instead of the missed approach that he called on the radio.

I have flown with instructors who are chatter boxes. I suspect that something like that was going on. An instructor talking to a student and both unaware what was going on around them.

I had one instructor early in my training who would turn down the radio so it couldn't be heard.

Another who wouldn't shut up even when I told him that I adhered to a sterile cockpit rule when entering a pattern.

[gsxrpilot]

I like the suggestion to go practice approaches at night.  Now if I can just find a safety pilot.  I need to go practice!