BoiseMooney Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Hi everyone – I’m newish here, having been learning plenty from this great site over the past few months; after a few months of searching and negotiating, I found an aircraft that I think is just right for me (’77 M20J) and it is currently with Joe Cole (MSC in Georgia) getting a PPI and Annual. If all goes well, I’ll be flying the plane back to Boise the weekend of January 30th. I have not yet completed my IR, so if I fly it without an IR pilot/instructor, it will be VFR – which could certainly make it an unpredictable four days (I’ve blocked Friday-Monday for the trip). Originally, the instrument rated current owner had volunteered to fly with me part or all of the way, but that fell through. I have blocked time with an instructor on the Friday for transition training, and he can get the trip started with me, but he has to be back in CHS on Saturday, and isn’t free the subsequent weekends either. I’m not all that worried about whether I make it in the one weekend or not – I fly (commercially) to and from the east coast every other week for work anyhow, so if I have to leave the plane somewhere along the way and pick it up the next weekend, I’m not overly concerned. That said, I’d obviously prefer to make the entire journey that first weekend. So, two topics for discussion: 1) Any suggestions on routing? Obviously the biggest impact will be the actual weather those days. Winds tend to show the fastest route being almost straight west – southern Tennessee -> northern Oklahoma and then turn north towards Laramie, WY and over southern WY to ID. Alternatively, I could stay south (warmer, maybe better weather?) all the way to southern Utah and turn north. I anticipate my biggest problem being the last few hundred miles, since prior to that I’ll have a lot of flexibility in routing. 2) Any IR (or not?) Mooney pilots along the route interested in making part of the journey? Thoughts on doing the flight alone or not? To be clear, I have my personal minimums, I don’t intend to fly at night and I have no problem stopping the flight as conditions dictate. Thanks for your thoughts and ideas, thanks for all the great information on this site and I look forward to contributing as I have some Mooney experiences of my own! Quote
carqwik Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Welcome to the club...but a few questions for you.... How much total time do you have? How much time in Mooneys? What have you been flying previously? If you're a low time pilot with no prior Mooney experience, I'd suggest taking a Mooney instructor with you the entire way. And I'd wait until the PPI/Annual is done (or nearly done) before planning anything... Quote
BoiseMooney Posted January 22, 2015 Author Report Posted January 22, 2015 Thanks, good questions. Total time is 160 hrs. Most of my time (80%) is in Warriors and Archers, more recently a Turbo Arrow that I've been doing instrument training in. I have no real PIC time in a Mooney - just some sample flights with others in their aircraft. Understood re: the PPI/Annual - no firm plans are made, but given airfare and my work schedule, I need to make tentative plans, even if they blow up and get pushed back. I agree, my preference would be to fly with a Mooney instructor some/all of the way, and a second choice would be flying with an experienced Mooney pilot. Quote
bonal Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 First off congrats on both your recent PPL and your soon to be Mooney. As some one not too long in this game I can think back to my history and experience not long ago I was under 200hrs with no Mooney time and If someone asked me to fly a complex never having PIC time in bird almost accross the country alone I would have said "no thanks" I dont know what your skill level is but this type of trip should not be taken lightly. I strongly recommend you find someone with Mooney time prefer a CFI to help you on your journey. I think that is what you are trying to do here so good luck to you and as I have posted on other simular posts be patient. Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 If I had that weekend free, I'd go with you in a heart beat. Quote
Marauder Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 I have time in an Arrow, the Mooney will be a different experience. I would find a CFII and make this an introduction to your instrument training. Quite honestly, this is a rough time of year for us non-turbo, non-FIKI owners. Weather can be pretty unpredictable and icing a concern. Add in a unknown plane and limited experience in type, I would want to stack things in my favor. Quote
moodychief Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Is the aircraft current on IFR certification? Quote
BoiseMooney Posted January 22, 2015 Author Report Posted January 22, 2015 Thanks for the thoughts so far. A few questions and answers: Answers/Responses: -IFR certification is a condition of purchase, so yes the aircraft will be IFR certified, with 430W. I also fly with a GDL39-3D w/Garmin Pilot. -I'll be doing my IFR Oral/Practical in Feb, but agreed that doing a long XC with a CFII would be a great capstone to my training - and that shouldn't indicate that I believe training stops with the checkride - it won't for me. -Agreed that it's a crappy time to fly across the country in a non-FIKI NA piston single, but such is life. I'm not gonna leave it sitting there until summer and I'm prepared to deal with meteorological reality that I may have to leave the plane somewhere half way across the country for a week. -I actually did my PPL checkride on my 17th birthday - back in the days of TCAs and ARSAs. I just stopped flying right after getting the ticket because college + life got in the way. I got back into it after moving to Boise earlier this year (June) and have been flying weekly since then. I started instrument training in August and will wrap that up in Feb. -Yes, I would much prefer to do the trip with another pilot, and the closer they are to being a Mooney experienced CFII, the better. Questions: -Can anyone recommend a good Mooney CFII in Georgia or the Carolinas? I've only been introduced to one and he's not available until late Feb. Seem to be few and far between... -A few of you have said that doing the flight alone isn't recommended. I'm curious what factors people think are the most troubling? Fatigue? Weather? Inexperience+potential for inflight emergencies? I'd like to be thoughtful about how I mitigate those risks differently on a 3-day XC trip as compared with my more typical flying, which is typically 1-2 hour flights in Idaho/Oregon? I have a pilot friend that will do the trip with me, so I wouldn't be alone in any case, but he's not Mooney experienced, so isn't ideal (we won't tell him that). Thanks again for all the feedback. Quote
carusoam Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Fatigue, O2, ice, dark and other adverse weather conditions. Followed by whatever makes a good pilot do something uncharacteristically lethal... Like run out of gas or make a mistake on take-off distance calculations. These things usually happen after somebody says it won't happen to them. One way to avoid this situation is to pay someone to make the decisions that you are capable of... Makes sense? -a- Quote
bonal Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 A few of you have said that doing the flight alone isn't recommended. I'm curious what factors people think are the most troubling? Fatigue? Weather? Inexperience+potential for inflight emergencies? E. all of the above I'm not for telling any one what to do or not but get someone in the pit with you that has Mooney and just more time. I'm sure I speak for many we all are looking forward to hearing the great story of your trip and your new Mooney. please be careful. Quote
thinwing Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 i think you will need more time than 4 days this time of year.Ive flown your route many times.Southern route via el paso / tucson than north great basin but you still have impressive terrain ( jawbridge wilderness) with pretty high mdas.The thing is ,aircraft purchase is stressful so you will already have a lot on your plate.I think your big issue is with only a 4 day window...a frontal crossing is likely at some point..ie right now it is even snowing in el paso.The western high pressure is good for calif but scud is creeping up the back side of the sierras or coming thru Wash state downward thru nev and Id.Lots of icy crud over both eastern and western texas ..I fly a turbocharged ,fiki mooney and have a few more hours under my belt,and I would be adding at least another day in even though I could theoretically fly the route in a day.Oh and when I mentioned that western high being good for calif..I ment it great flying weather if you are instrument rated..its been three weeks of 400/1 fog the entire valley Bakersfield to Red Bluff...and typically 200 /1/4 till 1 pm.We have more lilac colored airports than at a fairey convention.So my advice ,get a experienced cfii whos been scared once or twice..good luck with new bird!..kpc Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 I can highly recommend Brandon NeSmith if he is available. In addition to CFII instruction, including to several Mooney owners here, he does a lot of ferry work in all kinds of birds. In addition to helping you get your 201 safely home, he will pass on lots of tips about flying your bird. We're about an hour from Joey Cole's place. Contact him at his business, Table Rock Aviation, here: http://tablerockaviation.com/pages/flight-training/ Quote
BoiseMooney Posted January 23, 2015 Author Report Posted January 23, 2015 I can highly recommend Brandon NeSmith if he is available. In addition to CFII instruction, including to several Mooney owners here, he does a lot of ferry work in all kinds of birds. In addition to helping you get your 201 safely home, he will pass on lots of tips about flying your bird. We're about an hour from Joey Cole's place. Contact him at his business, Table Rock Aviation, here: http://tablerockaviation.com/pages/flight-training/ Thanks, I've reached out to him! Quote
cliffy Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Congrats on your purchase and I hope the PB goes well. Biggest issue for new Mooney guys in speed control on landing. Remember this please- If you bounce a landing GO AROUND. You will get the prop on the 3rd touch down Most bounced landing come from too much speed. With careful planing and a lot of luck you'll do fine on your trip if you take your time and pick your weather. Sounds like you don't have "get homeitis" which is good. 2 Quote
TTaylor Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Congratulations on the new Mooney. I did a similar flight two years ago from Springfield, TN to Logan, UT in December of 2012. It is a nice flight if you have the time and patience. I planned for only daylight flying with the new airplane. It can be done in two days, I flew it in two half days. I flew mostly along the The AR-MO OK-KS boarders. I left about noon and and flew to Liberal KS the first day (landing at sunset) and then on to Logan the next day. I had a headwind and took about 11 hours total flying time. I flew over the pass near La Veta, Co and then to Durango getting fuel at Animas Air Park before turning Northwest and flying up towards Salt Lake City over Cortez and Moab. This route will keep you south most of the time and once you turn north you can fly mostly valleys all the way home. Good luck on the trip. Quote
charlesual Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Congrats on your new J. Wish I could join you. I just ferried a E from Reno to the northeast with my daughter a week ago. Got pretty lucky with weather. I'm guessing you'll be facing the same kind if conditions we did. A few things I want to pass on. I am so glad that you are reaching out and getting advice from such a vast and experienced group here at mooneyspace. As has previously been said this flight for a new guy is no joke. Unfamiliar plane, Winter conditions, mountain flying, icing conditions, probable windy/gusty crosswind landings. ... You will likely be faced with tough decisions to land or continue. It's easy to say that you're not going to push the weather but when you're in the moment and you know the weather at destination is decent and the weather at departure is decent but the weather in the middle is not so good you're going to be tempted to press. Questions to ask yourself, what's at risk if I lose an engine or have a problem that requires a diversion through clouds? This time of year there's lots of ice out there and it can accumulate very fast. Mooney's do not do well in ice Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
charlesual Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Further, Mooney's can't take a lot of crossword. As a new guy you need to have very conservative personal minimums. Do not do this alone!! Have plenty of options which means having much flexibility to do this. I'm concerned you have a short window over a weekend which is a bit of a setup for pushing your limits. Having said all that scary stuff, this can be a great adventure. My daughter and I had a blast!! Make sure to bring warm weather gear, a survival kit, basic tools including fire extinguisher, poke your plane in hangers at night so that there won't be frost on it in the mornings. Use flight following or file flight plans if you don't. Feel free to contact me off line if you want more advise. Cheers, Charlesual@aol.com Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
FlyDave Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 I agree with what everyone else has said and will add my experience in December of 2013 when I moved from an M20J to a Bravo. I had ~500 hours in my J model and ~1,600 hours total when I upgraded. I had Don Kaye, Mooney instructor here in the San Francisco area fly to TX to fly home with me. I needed an insurance checkout and sign off for my policy to be in effect and that was the first, and at the time, primary reason for having Don fly the plane back to CA with me. Now, mind you, I had 500 hours in a J model, been flying since 2000 and was instrument rated. It didn't seem like moving to another Mooney would be that big a deal.....WRONG!!! New airplane, new avionics, new engine management issues and different panel layout, all the things that happen automatically when you have experience in an airplane were not there. Very little was automatic. On top of that, the airplane felt completely different than the J. Suddenly the airplane was a lot heavier on the nose and I had a lot more power - both of which change the way you fly the airplane. And now we were up at 14,500' which brings a little more planning in to play. In a non eventful VFR flight you probably won't have any issues taking off or en route - that's the easy part - but you will have to land. It doesn't take much excess speed to turn a landing into a tense (sometimes very tense) 5-6 seconds. And search this site for issues on go-arounds - they're not the easiest thing for a new Mooney pilot to execute. When a flight starts to grow hair you need to do things automatically. If you have 160 hours and just started flying Mooneys, that muscle memory, feel for the aircraft and knowledge of what it's going to do are not there. I was glad I had Don with me. I <<probably>> would have gotten home in one piece by myself. Flying with an instructor on this trip will stack the deck in your favor. We all want to see you get your airplane home safely, hear about your trip and read your posts in the future. So get a Mooney instructor for the trip. In 3-4 months you'll know why it was worth it! Dave 2 Quote
Randy_B Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Chris, Congratulations on the impending purchase of your M20J. Just over 4 years ago I was nearly in your same situation. I had a whopping 80 hours, a high performance and complex endorsement. I knew I wanted a J but I also knew I wasn't nearly prepared to fly one half way across the country with a local check ride. I found my J in North Canton, OH. My PPL instructor wasn't specifically a Mooney instructor but had considerable Mooney time. He was more than willing to fly out with me, check out the plane and fly back with me. The insurance (AOPA) requirements were 15 hours of duel and 10 hours of solo time prior to carrying passengers. The trip back nearly covered the duel requirement. This all took place at the end of June/first of July. I blocked out a full week for this endeavor. I thought the trip was an invaluable learning experience covering long distance flight/weather planning, fuel management, high crosswind takeoffs and landings, in route weather avoidance, getting familiar with aircraft's systems, as well as the effects of dehydration and high altitude. I wouldn't do it again any other way. Do be careful and be sure to let us know how the adventure goes. Randy 1 Quote
charlesual Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Another bonus having a mooney guy next to you is he'll probably give you lots of gouge on taking care of your plane, hopefully show you how to manage your fuel, maybe show you how to operate LOP, shoot some approaches, get some good crosswind landings....he/she can go over the required items like placards, flight handbook requirements, what you can do as an owner as far as maintainance, make sure you have good backup devices like chargers, flashlights, fuel dip stick, fire starter, human factor range extender, sick sacks, be intentional about your diet and fluid intake., maybe try to find an O2 bottle to go high and see what your bird is capable of. You have a 430w. That's good, but there are other toys out there like engine analyzers, foreflight with synthetic terrain and weather. Figure out how to find cheap gas and find complementary cars and when to bite the bullet and pay extra for the necessities. Instructors come with all kinds of backgrounds and experience. Try to find one that's going to give you the best all around experience. Above all have fun. Bring a camera and update us how your trip went. Cheers, Charlie Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
charlesual Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 One more thing and I'll shut up. It's cold out there right now. Easy to shock cool your motor. Descent planning is important. I try to carry at least 15" MAP in the descent. Problem is if get caught high, it's easy to put the nose down and find yourself in the Vne speeds pretty quick. Better to start down early and drag it in then whack the power off and shock cool your motor in my humble opinion. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
Hank Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Descent planning is required. The easy way to to look at the ETE field on the 430; if you descend at 500 fpm, that's two minutes per 1000'. Add 2-3 minutes to slow down. No need to reduce throttle, a power on descent will make up for your slow climb to altitude, and all the extra fuel you burned getting up there. But it will take time & distance for the extra descent speed to bleed off. THEN you can reduce the throttle as you approach the field to hit your desired pattern speed. Happy flying! Be careful , study hard, learn lots and FLY SAFE!! Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 Yeah, easy rule of thumb: If you're cruising 7,500' above destination pattern altitude and you want to average 500'/min descent, it will take 15 minutes to get down to pattern altitude. But when you push the nose over you'll be covering at least 150 kts = 2.5 nm per minute, maybe 3, so you need to start down 40-45 nm out. Hopefully terrain and ATC will permit. Quote
Amelia Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 You got a lot of very good advice already. I've flown that route in my Mooney 231 a dozen times, and it is utterly spectacular. I might be tempted for this time of year, to fly the southern route, and up the central valley of California. It's a beautiful ride, the weather's usually better and much less forbidding terrain, Even so, the southern high desert has its share of winter weather, wet or blowing snow and icy runways. And flying that far in midwinter with a deadline, solo, and with no more experience than you can get in a day or two prior, seems, er, very courageous, to me. Those who warn of gusty winds, airframe and induction icing, low clouds that linger for days, high mountain passes that are impassable, weather that changes from nice to horrid with little warning,long distances between weather reporting stations leading to inaccurate forecasts, are totally right. And it can be cold, especially on climb out, when you have the cowl flaps open, and after dark. But you won't fly at night on that trip, right? Right??? Exhaustion, exacerbated by turbulence, being chilled, being a little uncomfortable with a brand new-to-you airplane, and landing at a lot of unfamiliar airports just does take the starch out of one, so what seems a reasonable 6 hour day, may find you feeling wrung out. Not the best state of mind for good decisions. One good thing is that you won't have to worry about Density Altitude. Probably no dust devils and thunderstorms. Transitioning from a trainer to a Mooney can be done, of course, even with low hours, but there's a lot of information to soak up, a number of Mooney-specific operational techniques to commit to memory, and I found I had a hard time remembering it all at first, especially when I got busy.Having an experienced Mooney pilot along to feed you hints as the appropriate situations present themselves, perhaps repeatedly, helps to avoid that drinking-from-a-firehose feeling. The advice on final approach and landing speed control is the best Mooney advice you'll get.With an airplane this slippery and efficient, there are tradeoffs- one of those is you have to plan descents way ahead of time, and if you're over the fence to a short field at 98 and a little high, you may as well go around now, and try again. You've checked with your insurance company? I tried to get a low-time, about 250-hour VFR pilot added to my policy recently, with me going along for the whole trip, and they just shook their heads NO. Would have been fine if I were a CFI, no doubt. Should you consider all the drawbacks, and significant risk factors,and counting up the strikes against you and coming up with fewer than three potential links in the proverbial accident chain...one final hint: do dress as if you plan to have to hike. Warm layers. Good warm shoes or boots. Take survival gear- a good sleeping bag/space blanket/ water/etc. It's a glorious trip, though, and one that anybody with a Mooney should arrange to make at least once. The very best of luck to you! I will be watching for beautiful photos. 1 Quote
Awqward Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 I've been waiting for someone to refute the statement concerning Mooney's x-wind capabilities.... Further, Mooney's can't take a lot of crossword. As a new guy you need to have very conservative personal minimums. Do not do this alone!! Have plenty of options which means having much flexibility to do this. I'm concerned you have a short window over a weekend which is a bit of a setup for pushing your limits. Having said all that scary stuff, this can be a great adventure. My daughter and I had a blast!! Make sure to bring warm weather gear, a survival kit, basic tools including fire extinguisher, poke your plane in hangers at night so that there won't be frost on it in the mornings. Use flight following or file flight plans if you don't. Feel free to contact me off line if you want more advise. Cheers, Charlesual@aol.com Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
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