When do you cut your loses?

[ArtVandelay]

from an A&P's viewpoint, there isn't any such thing as an "airworthy" or "un airworthy" squawk. They are either in limits or out of limits.

Be careful of the verbiage in a pre purchase inspection.

David

I believe Mike Busch recommends not using the word inspection since it has legal ramifications for this reason, if I was the seller I would use appraisal instead, after all that's what you really want to know.

[KSMooniac]

"You're buying the seller as much as the airplane" is an expression I learned many years ago.  Sounds like this is one I wouldn't want to deal with...

 

You're far enough along in the process to give an ultimatum to the seller to get the deal done.  Something along the lines of have the plane relocated to XXX Shop before Jan XX 2015 or the deal is off.  It is a buyer's market, and you shouldn't have to bend over backwards to buy a good plane.  Hopefully the seller knows it too, but I I suspect not, and he is too smart (in his own mind) to learn from those that know more than him regarding the aircraft market.

[Sabremech]

The better word to use instead of inspection is evaluation. That's what I'm involved in right now is a PPE.

[Thunder669]

Well I see the collective thoughts on here are in line and as widespread as my own. I have thought I am already this far, just put up with the guy a little longer and then never hear from him again and have my plane to its not worth the headaches he has been causing. I did email the broker who then forwarded on to the seller an ultimatum. I have yet to hear a response so we will see what happens.

[bonal]

_{Where is the aircraf and where are you?  as for this aircraft only you can decide what the worth is. and no telling how this one will end. some stories have crappy beginnings but great endings others have great beginnings with crappy endings. or you could post all the info and pics you have and let us decide what you should do...  we could start a pole.}

_{I know this is serious but even though this can be stressful always remember you are looking to buy your own airplane and not only that your own Mooney how cool is that...}  

[Dave Marten]

While you wait also have the broker send you an electronic copy of all the aircraft's logs. You and your A&P can review and you can focus the PPI accordingly or walk away based on the logbook review alone. If the seller/broker decline to provide an electronic copy then that's another red flag.

Take your time. Be patient and keep a level head. Deal with the broker, but don't allow yourself to get jerked around.

Personally, I'd review the logs and if everything looks in order I'd go inspect the plane at the seller's airport. Don't plan on bringing it home that day. Easier to walk away or negotiate if you're not pressed for time. You can make arrangements to accept delivery AFTER you settle on a deal. If, after a log review, you can get him to bring the airplane to your shop fine, but plan on the shop keeping it a few days. Paying the seller's travel expenses is fair. Once the PPI is complete work with the broker to resolve squawks and ensure the squawks are fixed prior to closing the deal.

[aviatoreb]

"You're buying the seller as much as the airplane" is an expression I learned many years ago.  Sounds like this is one I wouldn't want to deal with...

 

 

 

Well said - that was what I was long winded to try and say but you said it better and cleaner.  I agree!

[Marauder]

This guy sound vaguely familiar.

Has this guy ever posted on the Little Timmy thread?

He is Little Timmy!!

[PTK]

Well I see the collective thoughts on here are in line and as widespread as my own. I have thought I am already this far, just put up with the guy a little longer and then never hear from him again and have my plane to its not worth the headaches he has been causing. I did email the broker who then forwarded on to the seller an ultimatum. I have yet to hear a response so we will see what happens.

Careful with ultimatums. Send them to the broker not the seller. Sounds like that's what you did. They may elicit a response from some people but may backfire with others. Keep in mind the seller may not be pressed or in a hurry to sell and it sounds like you like the airplane.

I know if I was a seller and a buyer came around giving me ultimatums I'd tell them to hit the road! But that's me.

Sounds like you sent the ultimatum to the broker which is a good thing. You're doing the right thing letting the broker do his job and handle the details.

[RobertGary1]

I know if I was a seller and a buyer came around giving me ultimatums I'd tell them to hit the road! But that's me.

Sounds like you sent the ultimatum to the broker which is a good thing. You're doing the right thing letting the broker do his job and handle the details.

 

Yes, I get the impression that the buyer wants the plane more than the seller wants to sell it. That doesn't mean that the deal won't work but just don't assume the person on the other end is dedicating as much of their life to this exchange as you are. It could be just one of many equally important things on his plate. Also its not uncommon for purchases to take months (just like houses) so he may not feel that the delays are uncommon.

 

-Robert

[Thunder669]

Well I have tried to take the advice of people on here as well as locally and not fall in love with a plane before I own it and always be ready to walk away. I feel I am getting a fair price on the plane but not some great deal. And yes I do want to buy a plane, probably more then someone wants to sell. I have worked very hard and sacrificed a lot to get to where I can buy a plane and am ready to see the fruits of my labor. It is not so much the delays if they were for legitimate reasons such as work and family. But they are because he doesn't want to honor agreements he has made with me and the broker. In fact the broker won't hardly get involved anymore because he is so sick of the seller. he told me that in all the aircraft he has sold he had never had a seller act like this or cause these kinds of problems and is actually shocked I have stuck it out as long as I have with this guy. Hopefully he will get his act together and get the plane up here or will tell me the deal is off at which time I will walk away and look more closely at a few others I have on a list. Either way I am ready to move forward either on this plane or another one.

[Bravoman]

Life is too short to deal with jerks ..especially a lawyer. He is probably billing you for his services I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't get a statement in the mail today. Buying a plane should not be work. It should be fun and exciting. Troy

Hey pal! Some of us lawyers are honest, pleasant to deal with mooney drivers! And I work on a contingency--I don't get paid until my client does.

[kmyfm20s]

Hey pal! Some of us lawyers are honest, pleasant to deal with mooney drivers! And I work on a contingency--I don't get paid until my client does.

Bravoman, your the man for Thunder669! Your the guy that think buying a new car is sport:) and your a Lawyer. Go grind the seller down.

[carusoam]

The broker is the guy that is getting paid to make the deal happen...

Get the logs scanned and emailed out. Take tons of photos and email them too. Organize moving people and planes as required...

The owner is usually the final say on price and acceptable terms...

Going direct to the seller can cause both parties to wonder what the broker actually brings to the table...

Keep in mind, my experience comes from buying and selling process machines. Similar, just not that many planes in my experience log.

Best regards,

-a-

[StinkBug]

Well I have tried to take the advice of people on here as well as locally and not fall in love with a plane before I own it and always be ready to walk away. I feel I am getting a fair price on the plane but not some great deal. And yes I do want to buy a plane, probably more then someone wants to sell. I have worked very hard and sacrificed a lot to get to where I can buy a plane and am ready to see the fruits of my labor. It is not so much the delays if they were for legitimate reasons such as work and family. But they are because he doesn't want to honor agreements he has made with me and the broker. In fact the broker won't hardly get involved anymore because he is so sick of the seller. he told me that in all the aircraft he has sold he had never had a seller act like this or cause these kinds of problems and is actually shocked I have stuck it out as long as I have with this guy. Hopefully he will get his act together and get the plane up here or will tell me the deal is off at which time I will walk away and look more closely at a few others I have on a list. Either way I am ready to move forward either on this plane or another one.

 

 

Start looking at those planes. Talk to the sellers and see if you can get some logbooks. Talking to people and sending emails doesn't cost a dime, and a good seller will be happy to send you copies of the logs. At this point you have nothing to lose in doing so, and you may find an equally great plane that doesn't come with the drama of this clown. If the broker is ready to fire someone who is paying him that says it all to me. I would have walked already, but if you're determined to torture yourself some more you should at least do yourself the favor of  starting the moving on process in case it all blows up in your face. Looking at some other planes may make it easier for you to walk away from this one as well. There are lots of planes out there. 

[Hank]

Not sure why there is all the lawyer hate in this thread. A$$holes are everywhere. Some of them have JDs. Most of them don't.

I wouldn't put up with his crap, personally.

Jim

 

A) You're right, Jim--99% of lawyers give the rest of them a bad name. We should slack off on the lawyer hate some. If only we were still a reasonable society, not governed down to minutia by ridiculous lawsuits ["Warning! Do not use this product while sleeping!"--an actual product warning I have seen, caused by the manufacturer losing a lawsuit.]

 

B )  I would have dropped this plane like a hot potato after seeing the difference between the verbal agreement and the written contract, and not bothered to respond. Maybe yelled at the broker some first . . . just to vent some frustration.

 

Good luck with your search and purchase, whether you stick with this jerk or move on.

[N601RX]

I have personally met a few of the lawyers we have on here including Jim.  There were all upstanding people who I would trust with a handshake and their word.  Its the 4 different firms that have at least 20 commercials during the 30 minute local morning news who give others a bad name.  All their themes seems to center around " No matter how little you MAY think you are hurt, just say no to the insurance company and give us a call".  We can get you more!  They then proceed with having their former clients telling how much money they got for them and how easy it was.

[Andy95W]

A) You're right, Jim--99% of lawyers give the rest of them a bad name.

Well said!

[chrisk]

To me it is very clear the tort system is broken, it not the lawyers.  They just play in the sand box and get the stink on them.    There are of course exceptions, like the ones who made the system that way.  And bad ones who create situations to bill their clients more. (Divorce lawyers come to mind)

 

Back on the topic of this plane.   Most planes will cost $300 to $800 a month to own, for just the hanger, insurance, and annual.  It seems a little silly to be overly concerned with the cost of a car rental when selling a plane.  And if your that big of a CB, take greyhound!

 

I'm also curious if you have seen the plane in person?  Depending on where it is, it may pay to have a local mechanic give it a quick look.  I think the best $100 I ever spent was when I was looking for my first plane.  I found a great deal on a 172.   I called a mechanic on the field (not one that worked on the plane), and asked him to spend 2 hours examining the plane and to give me his opinion.  He spent a little over an hour, called me back and advised me to move on.      --Which reminds me, have you talked to the mechanic who maintains the plane?  Most are willing to talk and give you their impression of the plane, if they have seen it recently.

[Andy95W]

--Which reminds me, have you talked to the mechanic who maintains the plane? Most are willing to talk and give you their impression of the plane, if they have seen it recently.

Especially if the lawyer is as big of a tool as he sounds- the mechanic will probably give you an earful about the guy. He's probably a jerk to everyone.

[Bob_Belville]

Especially if the lawyer is as big of a tool as he sounds- the mechanic will probably give you an earful about the guy. He's probably a jerk to everyone.

I have a friend who owns a body shop. He's older than I am(!)... in business a long time... has a firm policy, based on several bad experiences, he does not work on cars belonging to lawyers. Life's too short. 

[RobertGary1]

 

Back on the topic of this plane.   Most planes will cost $300 to $800 a month to own, for just the hanger, insurance, and annual.  It seems a little silly to be overly concerned with the cost of a car rental when selling a plane.  And if your that big of a CB, take greyhound!

 

 

 

Very much agree. The first unexpected $5K item is going to hurt a lot more than a car rental. Its just part of airplane ownership. That's why we don't generally measure airplane cost in dollars but instead in Aviation Monetary Units (AMUs) which are equal to $1K. Since nothing really costs less than $1,000 the extra zeros aren't necessary.

 

BTW: There is a repair shop at my home field in which the owner refuses to work on planes owned by lawyers.

 

 

-Robert

[Hank]

Sweeping generalizations are often correct, the trouble comes in applying a generalization in a specific instance. Also, every rule has exceptions, including this one. So I am sure some lawyers are nice people and deal fairly. So far I've had minimal professional contact with them all, and hope to continue this trend.

Regardless of this seller's profession, sending a contract so different from our agreement would end my contact with him.

[rbridges]

Sweeping generalizations are often correct, the trouble comes in applying a generalization in a specific instance. Also, every rule has exceptions, including this one. 

 

Seriously, I can tell by his posts and the help that he's offered, Jim is a genuinely nice guy.  Also, Hank is an Auburn graduate and isn't illiterate.  That's 2 stereotypes busted right there.  

[Bob_Belville]

My daughter, female, blond, and a lawyer is very tired of stereotyping jokes. Nevertheless... clichés do not become clichés unless there's a lot of truth behind them.