Night flights and runway lights.

[chrisk]

Who else has arrived at an unfamiliar airport at night, only to discover you can't turn on the runway lights? I went IFR to KLEE last night. I couldn't spot the airport, so I flew the approach. I got the PAPI, but no runway lights, no matter how many times I keyed the mike. I went missed and took a second try at it. Still no lights. Then I headed to my alternate, KOCF, for the best cross wind landing I've had in a long time.

[Cruiser]

Lights: 

MIRL RYS 03/21 & 13/31, PAPI RYS 03/21 & 13/31 & TWY LGTS OPR DUSK-2200; AFT 2200 ACTVT - CTAF.

 

CTAF is 119.35, did you try that freq?

[chrisk]

Lights: 

MIRL RYS 03/21 & 13/31, PAPI RYS 03/21 & 13/31 & TWY LGTS OPR DUSK-2200; AFT 2200 ACTVT - CTAF.

 

CTAF is 119.35, did you try that freq?

Yes! 119.35 was tried multiple times. No joy.

[FoxMike]

I have found on several occasions that the receiver on the airport is set low so the lights will not come on when another nearby airport with the same freq for lights is activated by a pilot.  If the lights do not come on try flying right over the runway and clicking on the appropriate freq.  I dislike this when doing an instrument approach but the airport is just trying to keep its utility bills down.  Sometimes it makes sense to call and let them know you will be using the airport and they will set the receiver a little higher.

[Hank]

The devil is in the details. Last weekend I landed at a rural field, 2770 x 30, that advertised runway lights on CTAF, 5 clicks. I normally use 7 clicks for high, but that night I used five.

Very visible from a distance, but up close there was only one row lit up. A flyby to judge wind looked like the runway was on the far side of the lights; but on short final, about to flare to the left of the lights, the runway was to the right. My second approach right of the lights went just fine, and I made the turn to park with minimal braking. Turns out there were light fixtures on both sides of the runway, but only one operating!

[ryoder]

I really like KOCF. Great lunch.

I have never flown into either at night but will keep your experience in mind. Thanks for sharing.

[kortopates]

I had a similar experience flying into a frequent destination but our first time at night. After talking to the Airport Manager it turns out I was clicking just the right number of clicks to turn OFF the lights! which was only 5 if I recall correctly and one click past high. Now I make a habit of checking in the AFD to avoid that again.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dave Marten]

Chris,

Follow up with the airport manager. If there is an issue with their PCL then you'll save the next pilot a lot of hassle. If there is an issue encourage them to issue a NOTAM.

With KLEE's main runway closed there may indeed be an issue with the lights (same circuit?). Did construction take em all out? Clue to call ahead: primary runway closed, night arrival after tower closed, unfamiliar field.

Reminder to all: review the lighting config of your landing runway. 03 at KLEE has no approach lights, no runway end lights, only edge lighting (ie, you may have to get within 2-3 miles to see the edge lights on low-med intensity). Know what you should expect to see when established on final/breaking out.

BL: good call on diverting to the alternate.

[garytex]

Guys, from my perspective, you are missing the point.

Night flying, like night boating is significantly chancier than day.  Serious trouble, the kind that bites you, happens when incidents/mistakes overwhelm your ability to complete your trip as planned.  The more incidents/mistakes that occur, the more perturbed the outcome will be.  

My little group has spent many thousands of hours in offshore boating, and we have come up with the theory of incidents/mistakes to quantify risk and outcomes.  For example, if the weather took an anticipated turn for the worse, you had a mechanical failure, and the radio didn't work, that was 3 'mistakes', and you could be seriously inconvenienced, say stranded offshore at least overnight.  Add in a couple more 'mistakes' like anchor wouldn't grab and a strong onshore wind was blowing, or maybe not enough drinking water, or maybe a modest injury and people could die.  We noticed that the risk of death got fairly high at around 4 to 5 really choice 'incidents/mistakes'.

We also noticed that in boats at night the simplest operations become fraught with lots more risk, simply because you can't see well.  The same guy that has run out the jetties literally 500 times during the day misses the turn and runs up on the beach, or can't stay in the channel and is up on the rocks.  I've seen it several times.  We would go offshore at night, but not very much, only when everything else was perfect, and only when there was a damn good reason to do so.  Going at night, you start with one 'mistake' against you.

I think boats get a 2 mistake discount over airplane 'mistakes' before someone is seriously inconvenienced, like floating around in the gulf holding on to the ice chest overnight.

In airplanes, if things go perfectly wrong, even as few as one mistake can kill you.  Two mistakes will certainly be bad news, and with 3 or 4 mistakes, I think one would have to be lucky not to die.  Just as in boats, going out at night is 1'mistake', one strike against you.  

I have 1700 hrs, and am a vfr pilot.  And my personal minimum is 'daylight'.   I have 3.5 hrs. night in my logbook, 3 hrs required for my private, and another .5 several years ago because it got dark on me due to a head wind.  1 mistake.  I passed Austin Mueler with tons of light because my car was at Birdsnest which was dark.  2 mistakes.  I landed on the taxiway, because i couldn't tell it from the runway in the dark.  3 mistakes.  But I landed ok.

That was an unbelievably cheap lesson, and I am really leery of pissing off the gods who gave me that lesson at such a huge discount.

So I don't fly at night.  For me, it is a 'mistake' to do so. 

[Hank]

Sorry you had a bad experience, Gary. Something I heard in a different context seems to also apply here: Mom burned dinner once, but I still eat, and ate her cooking after that burned dinner, too.

Flying at night is beautiful, usually calmer than during the day and often the radio is silent for a long time (even when talking to Atlanta Center and Approach). I don't think I ever flew more than 400 nm after dark as a VFR pilot, but I don't tempt fate by flying Night IMC, although I may punch through a layer now and again.

It does take a little more preflight effort, though. Verify sector altitudes, plot the descent on the chart for clearance, pay attention to NOTAMs, and call ahead about lighting and parking.

[N9453V]

Guys, from my perspective, you are missing the point.

Night flying, like night boating is significantly chancier than day.  Serious trouble, the kind that bites you, happens when incidents/mistakes overwhelm your ability to complete your trip as planned.  The more incidents/mistakes that occur, the more perturbed the outcome will be.  

My little group has spent many thousands of hours in offshore boating, and we have come up with the theory of incidents/mistakes to quantify risk and outcomes.  For example, if the weather took an anticipated turn for the worse, you had a mechanical failure, and the radio didn't work, that was 3 'mistakes', and you could be seriously inconvenienced, say stranded offshore at least overnight.  Add in a couple more 'mistakes' like anchor wouldn't grab and a strong onshore wind was blowing, or maybe not enough drinking water, or maybe a modest injury and people could die.  We noticed that the risk of death got fairly high at around 4 to 5 really choice 'incidents/mistakes'.

We also noticed that in boats at night the simplest operations become fraught with lots more risk, simply because you can't see well.  The same guy that has run out the jetties literally 500 times during the day misses the turn and runs up on the beach, or can't stay in the channel and is up on the rocks.  I've seen it several times.  We would go offshore at night, but not very much, only when everything else was perfect, and only when there was a damn good reason to do so.  Going at night, you start with one 'mistake' against you.

I think boats get a 2 mistake discount over airplane 'mistakes' before someone is seriously inconvenienced, like floating around in the gulf holding on to the ice chest overnight.

In airplanes, if things go perfectly wrong, even as few as one mistake can kill you.  Two mistakes will certainly be bad news, and with 3 or 4 mistakes, I think one would have to be lucky not to die.  Just as in boats, going out at night is 1'mistake', one strike against you.  

I have 1700 hrs, and am a vfr pilot.  And my personal minimum is 'daylight'.   I have 3.5 hrs. night in my logbook, 3 hrs required for my private, and another .5 several years ago because it got dark on me due to a head wind.  1 mistake.  I passed Austin Mueler with tons of light because my car was at Birdsnest which was dark.  2 mistakes.  I landed on the taxiway, because i couldn't tell it from the runway in the dark.  3 mistakes.  But I landed ok.

That was an unbelievably cheap lesson, and I am really leery of pissing off the gods who gave me that lesson at such a huge discount.

So I don't fly at night.  For me, it is a 'mistake' to do so. 

 

Gary, while you are correct that night flying does have its risks, they can be managed and it can be very safe and enjoyable. When you landed on the taxiway by mistake, was it lit? I thought all taxiway lights were blue.

 

Looking at my logbook, of the 1087 hours from the last time I updated it, 191.5 (almost 18%) were at night. I love night flying and thankfully I've never had an incident. Personally, I do the following to manage risk:

 

1) Almost all flights are on an IFR flight plan or those that are VFR are operated as if they were IFR.

2) If going into an unfamiliar airport, I will generally fly an instrument approach if conditions are VMC.

3) I try very hard to avoid airports without a VASI, PAPI or ILS/LPV approach and if possible I pick larger airports with ALFS-2 or similar approach lighting.

4) I try to only use runways of at least 4000ft or more.

 

-Andrew

[chrisk]

 

1) Almost all flights are on an IFR flight plan or those that are VFR are operated as if they were IFR.

2) If going into an unfamiliar airport, I will generally fly an instrument approach if conditions are VMC.

3) I try very hard to avoid airports without a VASI, PAPI or ILS/LPV approach and if possible I pick larger airports with ALFS-2 or similar approach lighting.

4) I try to only use runways of at least 4000ft or more.

 

-Andrew

I use the same set of rules myself. Of these, I think flying an instrument approach and never getting low on the PAPI or VASI are life savers. And it almost goes without saying, landing on an unlighted runway is very high risk.

[David Mazer]

First, I had the same problem at KLEE a year or so ago.  I went up to practice some night landings and couldn't get the lights on no matter how many times I clicked the mike.

 

Second, maybe I shouldn't admit this, I didn't know the lights could be turned off by keying the mike.  I understand the ability to change the intensity but I would think the possibility to turn off the lights on short final (I always reset the timer on final to be sure they don't go off before I'm ready) would make that option goofy.

 

Third, Garytex, sorry you are missing out on flying at night.  I love it.  I'm very careful not to get too close to anything imbedded with anything and I prefer to fly into airports with which I'm familiar but I really enjoy night flying at least as much as day.  Just my opinion and preference I suppose.

[garytex]

We all have a unique risk set that we are comfortable with.  One that we have incrementally acclimatized to by stretching our experience and honing our skills.  And stepwise we can increase our range of operations without getting in over our heads.  It is when we get pushed unexpectedly into the deep end, when we are overwhelmed  by multiple issues that just can't all be cured fast enough that planes get bent, and folks shed blood.  

Everybody has types of flying that work for them, and those that do not.  I also hold the idea that IFR is not for me, although I am getting tempted.  I am used to hearing gasps of derisive disbelief when I express that with the plane, instruments, and skill set that I have I see it as just too dangerous.  Maybe with a $20G panel upgrade.  But then again It is easy enough to drive those few missions a year when I can't make my schedule VFR, and I can spend those 20 Gs on whiskey and marine diesel fuel.

The guy I bought my Mooney from asked me how I was going to use his old - my new plane. "Day VFR" and I expected the agast response.  After all he had started in DC3s with Eastern, and finished flying charter across the Pacific in 777s.  The plane has a full complement of pre GPS IFR instrumentation.  He said "OK, I understand.  I don't fly single pilot hard IFR that in this plane: with it's instruments, and skill set that I have, and by myself, it's just too dangerous." He went on to make some comments about instrument failures combined with vertigo, throw in some bad weather or mechanical and how easy it is to get overwhelmed.  And I came to understand that in his 20,000 hrs that he had seen the elephant a time or two.  Evidently you only need two in the cockpit to save everybody's bacon about once every 5,000 to 10,000 hours.  And we're not going to fly that much.  So we're good, right?  

 

On reflection, part of my predilection against night flying is the experience set that I brought to aviation from offshore.  Another is that almost all of my flying has been based from airports with no lights, and lots of deer.  In the above incident there were no blue lights to tell me that I was landing on a taxiway, there wasn't a single functioning light on the whole airport. Or another soul.  It was dark.  And that taxiway was about 10 feet of crumbling asphalt, on a heaving black gumbo soil sub grade in the last throws of coming completely apart with steep shoulders and two foot deep borrow ditches.  I got away incredibly cheap.  But I sure enough saw the elephant.  And it marked me. 

 

Those comfortable with flying at night get lots more utility from their planes.  I see the advantages.  It is cool.  The afternoon thunderstorms die down. There is less traffic.  Strobes alight, other AC are easier to see.  With the right plane, instruments, preparation and experience it is doable.  By the last NTSB numbers I looked at back in the 90's for night VFR both the fatal and non-fatal numbers were not quite, but almost double.  Not being able to see well is just one additional 'mistake/incident' to add to anything else that might go wrong.  We all play with some fire.  If folks want to go fly at night they should be able to have at it.  The point is that they should understand that it is riskier.  Statistically so.  And common sense so.    

 

I am based at an airport with no lights, lots of deer, and a police force that can and does write tickets that can exceed $1000 for landing one minute after sundown.  I also think that there is an added element of risk in night operations.  So I'm probably not going to have much opportunity to ease into night flying anytime soon.  And I'm OK with that.  

[triple8s]

"I am based at an airport with no lights, lots of deer, and a police force that can and does write tickets that can exceed $1000 for landing one minute after sundown."

Wow they sure do care about our safety!

[Jim Peace]

If you are flying at night in a C-152 to a Caravan etc, what do you do if the engine quits either at the impossible turn or cruising outside of gliding distance of an airport?  What field do you shoot for?  Go for the road with cars and chance killing an innocent person over a joy ride?

 

Crash at night and have CAP come out and look for you at night,,,, risk their life?  Honestly how many owners here have a 406 ELT with GPS input hooked up?

 

It is certainly more of a gamble then daytime flying.  I would not call it safe.  

 

Having wrote all that I still get stuck once in a blue moon by arriving later then I would want.....hairs stand up on back of neck...engine makes all sorts of sounds as soon as the sun goes down.

[1964-M20E]

A grass field I fly into has lights and if you click the mic too fast they will not come on.  You need to click about 1/2 to 1 second rate and then they will come on but that is there.  Of course when the lights fail to come on you start clicking faster and faster to make them come on.

[garytex]

Trip 8

That's not the case about safety, the town grew up around the airport and they see it as an annoying and possibly dangerous pimple in the middle of their lovely powdered face. Of course it's a small town where those feelings can be communicated with the police. The saving grace is lately we got some flyers on the police force and so they haven't been hanging around the airport at sunset trying to catch people.

[cujet]

If I fly at night, it's nearly always a pattern climb to a safe cruising altitude. High enough to glide to an airport. I avoid as much as possible, locations and altitudes that are out of safe glide distance.

[GIVCAPT]

Good topic,

 

I just landed tonight at my home base airport in my single engine plane. I did not plan for a night landing but it happened and all went well as expected,that being said I am not a fan of flying  single engine airplanes at night. My job requires me to fly a lot of trips at night which is not a big deal since I have two engines that are extremely reliable and afford me more options. That's just my two cents for what it's worth.

[47U]

My Dad flew his '63C off a 2,600' grass farm strip for 35 years. Back in the '70s he experimented with some red driveway reflectors, two on each end, stuck in the ground to mark the thresholds. He took me along one night to try out this set up after driving the pickup up and down the runway to see how well they showed up. Once airborne, there were other building spots along the road on both the approach and departure ends so getting lined up and judging altitude wasn't that hard, but holy crap! I couldn't see anything that looked like a red reflector. Maybe he only had the 100w landing light installed, I don't remember. I guess he didn't like it either because he bought the Wag-Aero runway light package and wired it up to a photo cell that he could turn on if he would be landing after dark. He didn't fly a lot at night, but in the winter it gets dark at 1700 so the lights were useful on occasion. When I trained for the PPL (Tri-Pacer) in the early '80s, most of my night requirement was done off that strip and it was a piece of cake. There were a lot fewer deer back then as compared to now and flat Iowa farm country is one thing, but now with all the deer, or over trees or rough terrain, no thanks.

[fantom]

On night instrument approaches to Aiken SC, we flew almost directly over my buddy's fly-in community home. 4,000 by 40 unlighted runway. He or his wife would stand near the runway waving a powerful flashlight.

Cancel the approach, four landing and taxi light on, and drop right in. I did it many times with nary a scratch. Not for the inexperienced or timid and yes, I know, it's terribly irresponsible.

[Marauder]

On night instrument approaches to Aiken SC, we flew almost directly over my buddy's fly-in community home. 4,000 by 40 unlighted runway. He or his wife would stand near the runway waving a powerful flashlight.

Cancel the approach, four landing and taxi light on, and drop right in. I did it many times with nary a scratch. Not for the inexperienced or timid and yes, I know, it's terribly irresponsible.

As long as you weren't doing touch and goes, you are safe with about half of this crowd.

[Ftlausa]

Flying back from Mom's Turkey dinner last night over the Everglades I did think about the engine out complications of night flying some of the posts above mention.  I get it, and its a legit concern.  But, as others pointed out, night flying in Florida has it pluses too -- cooler temps in summer, generally less weather, way less traffic in crowed SoFla, and less turbulence.  During the winter, it gets dark so early, limiting yourself to day flight is, well, too limiting for me.      

[Hank]

Good topic,

 

I just landed tonight at my home base airport in my single engine plane. I did not plan for a night landing but it happened and all went well as expected,that being said I am not a fan of flying  single engine airplanes at night. My job requires me to fly a lot of trips at night which is not a big deal since I have two engines that are extremely reliable and afford me more options. That's just my two cents for what it's worth.

And you don't worry that your two reliable engines have double the chance for a failure at night as your Mooney's one reliable engine? If your Mooney engine isn't reliable, it would worry me to fly it at all . . .