M20F, J, or M...and why?

[stensonb]

Hi all --

 

As a first post, I wanted to start on the path of my inevitable decision to purchase a Mooney...I'm not sure I have a concrete timeline, and obviously, the budget is a pretty wide range...

 

But, I'd like to hear some anecdotal reviews/comparisons/opinions on which one you'd buy, and why...and/or, why not the other model?

 

Some of my current "needs" include:

 - +150 knots (more is better!)

 - +12000 ft (I live in the PNW, and need some power to get over the hills below)

 - something with time left before TBO (I don't want to buy a "rebuild-kit" project)

 - something with an interior that won't scare away my wife

 - A descent panel...if it doesn't have a G430W in it, I'll probably put one it -- an HSI would be nice...turn coordinator...post-1969 standard 6-pack panel...some cylinder/exhaust temp gauges...possibly fuel flow...meh...

 

What do you think?

[Andy95W]

M20K 252, or a 231 with the later engine- or better yet, conversion to the MB engine.

[Parker_Woodruff]

What's your budget? Why are you making the jump from a J to an M?

Both are great planes, but in the middle of those is the turbocharged M20K (231,252, and Encore). It's not as thirsty on gas as the M20M if that is a consideration for you.

If cross country travel at 12,000 and higher is a requirement for you, I would go for the M20K. The ability to get that high is there in all M20 variants is there, but a turbocharged aircraft is the best way to do so quickly.

I've owned an M20J and M20K. Even living in Texas, I would prefer the M20K for the quick climb to cruising altitude.

[kevinw]

You need a turbocharged model or an Ovation if your budget permits. I fly a J and while I can get it up to 12,000, It's too much of a workout. The J lives at 7-8,000 so I rarely go higher. Love everything else about it!

[KSMooniac]

I concur with Parker... I'd start with a K of whatever vintage and equipment as your budget will support.  I'd prefer to find one with a ratty interior and cheaper price, and then you can remake it to your specs, or more importantly, to your wife's!  Get her involved with picking out leathers and/or fabrics, get the seats rebuilt to make them much more comfortable, get an extra matching cushion made if she is shorter to help her see out, etc.  There are quite a few examples on this site with great interior transformations if you poke around in the galleries.

 

You should also consider if you *need* to fly reliably in the winter up there on a schedule...if so you'll likely want/need a TKS-equipped airplane.  There aren't many K's with it, but there are some.  That might drive you up to the M, or perhaps the R.  It would do fine up there as it climbs well up to 13-14k.  Those come with bigger budgets of course...

[Danb]

as Parker stated most Mooneys will fit the bill but if high flying is a priority the need for turbocharging is close to a must,  I live on the east coast but a couple weeks ago the need was there due to ice to get on top reasonably fast or mud around 5000 ft. getting the H kicked out of me, I chose to go up to FL 230 and my M model performed quite nicely, also as Parker mentioned the M model is quite thirsty always a trade off somewhere....If you could find a nice Rocket it would fit your need quite nicely, if I was more patient I would have taken more time and found a Rocket and made whatever changes I wanted to fit my criteria..... good luck and be patient get a good pre buy and welcome to the family...

[stensonb]

Ha, you know, I meant a "K" model, not an"M".

[manoflamancha]

I would go with turbo charged M20K or 201J with turbo charging.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Stenson,

Are you the only pilot in your family?

Is your wife familiar with flying?

Do you have kids?

Or are you able to make this decision on your own?

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob - S50]

I've got a J and live in the Seattle area.

 

Are you and (more importantly) your wife willing to suck on an oxygen hose?  If not, you probably won't spend much time above 12500'.

 

What airport will you operate out of and where will you usually go that is on the other side of the mountains?

 

There is really no need to climb to 12000' to get over the mountains up here.  There are lots and lots of airways that will let you cross the mountains with an MEA of 10000' or lower.  If you want to go direct and not along an airway then yes, you may need to get higher.  VFR you can pretty easily cross the Cascades at or below 7500'

 

I recently flew from S50-BDN-SQL and ended up at 11500' but for turbulence not for terrain.  Could have made the entire flight at 9500' if VFR.

 

Are you talking Montana where the MEA's are higher?

 

Consider the cost of maintenance for the J vs the K vs the number of times you'll need to go higher.

 

Bob

[manoflamancha]

If you are flying over the Rockies you really want a turbocharged Mooney with higher ceiling. At least from a safety peace of mind.

But if most of your flying is below 12000' then better to save on a F or J model. The J is newer than the F but not that much different except for electric gear versus the old style manual Johnson bar gear.

[Jim Peace]

I have flown in this plane and its insane......great value

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/13475-1985-mooney-rocket-for-sale-price-lowered/

[stensonb]

Welcome aboard Stenson,

Are you the only pilot in your family?

Is your wife familiar with flying?

Do you have kids?

Or are you able to make this decision on your own?

Best regards,

-a-

 

Yup, only pilot in the fam.  My wife sees aviation as a method of travel...nothing more.  I have a nearly 7-year-old daughter who is geeked about flying, and I have a pipe dream that she'll want to pick it up as a hobby (among the other competing interests in her life).

 

From the airplane perspective, I'll be the sole "decider"!

[stensonb]

I've got a J and live in the Seattle area.

 

Are you and (more importantly) your wife willing to suck on an oxygen hose?  If not, you probably won't spend much time above 12500'.

 

What airport will you operate out of and where will you usually go that is on the other side of the mountains?

 

There is really no need to climb to 12000' to get over the mountains up here.  There are lots and lots of airways that will let you cross the mountains with an MEA of 10000' or lower.  If you want to go direct and not along an airway then yes, you may need to get higher.  VFR you can pretty easily cross the Cascades at or below 7500'

 

I recently flew from S50-BDN-SQL and ended up at 11500' but for turbulence not for terrain.  Could have made the entire flight at 9500' if VFR.

 

Are you talking Montana where the MEA's are higher?

 

Consider the cost of maintenance for the J vs the K vs the number of times you'll need to go higher.

 

Bob

 

Ok, cool...I'm a mid-time member of Valley Fliers out of S50...great club, but the top end 182 still only pushes ~120 on a good day!

 

O2 is certainly a consideration.  I think I expected to wear masks, but I can imagine a few hours of that gets old real quick.

 

I'll be keeping this at either S50 or KTIW...and flying both South and East...mostly, I'd like to confident about being able to get over cold/wet clouds in the winter...and I realize most MEAs are <10,000, but higher is better...and when that prop stops, I'd like to have lots of time to figure out where I wanna hike out from.

 

I imagine I'll get above 10,000 a few times a year...a few longer trips to Denver, northern Cali, and maybe an annual trip to someplace in Wisconsin where other airplanes go.

 

Bob -- do you have a trusted IA who knows your Mooney well?  I'd like to get some rough estimates on what annuals/overhauls/shop rate would cost...

[stensonb]

I have flown in this plane and its insane......great value

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/13475-1985-mooney-rocket-for-sale-price-lowered/

 

Looks beautiful...a little rich for my blood, but that doesn't mean I don't want it.

[carusoam]

The most capable and most expensive planes come with turbos, FIKI systems and WAAS GPS systems...

Select a budget and see how your mission compares against planes in that range...

It isn't very logical to be able to select a machine that is right for you until you own one...

Then picking out the best for you will come after you have gained experience.

I started with a C, flew the family around for a decade... Then got the R. The right machine for the well known mission.

The risk of buying the wrong plane because you can't define the mission very well can be expensive. The act of buying and selling an airplane can be expensive.

Family don't usually like to fly in small airplanes. They do like to go places though.

Do you have a mission, and a budget?

40k C

50k E

60k F

80k J

100k K

200k M, R

You are familiar with the PPI, right?

Does your mission include flying in IMC?

Best regards,

-a-

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Flew a 1998 M20K Encore with its original panel (except for a 530/430 retrofit that I did) and TKS on the West Coast for years and loved it. It was the perfect airplane for that part of the country.

 

This plane is pretty close to what I had at the time, minus TKS:

 

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-ENCORE/1997-MOONEY-M20K-ENCORE/1327005.htm

 

Loved my Encore when my mission was within nonstop range of its 75 gallon fuel capacity.

 

Welcome to MooneySpace, and good luck with your decision!

[Lood]

M20F is definitely out, except if you can get one with a turbo.

[Marauder]

Acquiring the airplane is only a portion of the actual cost of owning a plane. I would look at the total financial commitment along with your intended mission to determine what it will actually cost you to own and maintain the correct plane. If you need a turbo with TKS but can only afford to care and feed an F, you may want to rethink your approach to ownership.

Costs for little "problems" add up quickly. There is nothing better than owning your own airplane until something needs to get fixed...

[bonal]

A very true statement. good luck with your search buying is just the beginning and the more performance the greater the long term costs. I know the turbo sounds good but our C gets us to 12500 just fine when we need to cross the mountains so I'm sure an E of F would be fine for you mission. that's Mt Shasta it's 14k plus. After I had to go back down for air.

[gsxrpilot]

My C has everything you want except for the 150kt TAS. It's only 145kt TAS.  I've cruised over the top at 13,500 more than once.  I've got a 530W with HSI, GEM with FF, and STec30/Alt Hold.

 

It's also cheap to buy, maintain and feed.

 

Paul

[Hank]

Cs are good options, if a short body will fit your needs. I routinely cruise 9000-10,000 over the Appalachians. I've climbed to 11,000 over western NC, over the highest terrain east of the Mississippi. I've made one long trip, >1300 nm each way, averaging 127 knots westbound and 151 knots eastbound. Both would have been higher but my companions wanted to stop often . . . All on 9 gph.

Your wife and daughter will definitely learn to pack lighter!

[bonal]

I would much rather have a well equipped low time C E or F than a lesser J. Don't know what price point you are looking for but as many here, myself included have pointed out your purchase price is only part of the equation. Have fun.

[AlanA]

I have a over 500 hours  over the the tallest mountains in the western states in a J Model.  My flight altitudes is routinely between 11,000 and 13,500, and occasionally between 14,000 and 17,500.  Yes if the budget allowed I would spring for a K model but I do just fine in my J.    If my mission took me frequently over the NORTHERN Sierras or in frequent IFR I would probably upgrade to the K. Fortunately, I fly mostly in drier areas and the J works great!

[Bob - S50]

Ok, cool...I'm a mid-time member of Valley Fliers out of S50...great club, but the top end 182 still only pushes ~120 on a good day!

 

O2 is certainly a consideration.  I think I expected to wear masks, but I can imagine a few hours of that gets old real quick.

 

I'll be keeping this at either S50 or KTIW...and flying both South and East...mostly, I'd like to confident about being able to get over cold/wet clouds in the winter...and I realize most MEAs are <10,000, but higher is better...and when that prop stops, I'd like to have lots of time to figure out where I wanna hike out from.

 

I imagine I'll get above 10,000 a few times a year...a few longer trips to Denver, northern Cali, and maybe an annual trip to someplace in Wisconsin where other airplanes go.

 

Bob -- do you have a trusted IA who knows your Mooney well?  I'd like to get some rough estimates on what annuals/overhauls/shop rate would cost...

First, the main problem with flying in the winter here is not the ability to get over 10,000', its the icing.  Unless you get a plane with FIKI, it doesn't matter what you get, there are going to be lots of days when you won't go anywhere.

 

Most days you'll have to stay ...low... not high, to avoid the icing.  You are probably already aware that there are lots of days with ceilings above 3000' that would allow you to go south below the weather VFR.  Somewhere in Oregon, the freezing level might be high enough to climb through it.  Or if you are headed for California, just go along the coast and stay low the entire way.  Minimum MEA headed south is about 5000' which will frequently put you in the soup and icing conditions.  Besides, unless you will be flying more than about 300 miles, you won't save much gas by going higher.  If your wife is like mine, she only wants to sit in the plane for 2 or 3 hours before getting out to stretch the legs.  That's 300 to 450 nm.

 

If you want to go east in the winter you'll need a flexible schedule so you can wait for a day with clear skies, scattered clouds, high ceilings, or be willing to drive south to PDX then head up the Columbia river to get to the east side of the Cascades.  That will add over 100nm to your trip.

 

I just went from BFI to BTM and back yesterday (Angel Flight).  I flew V2 from VAMPS to MSO then GLUES, CPN and KBTM.  Using that route I would have been very comfortable at my planned cruising altitude of 9500'.  I would have always been within gliding distance of interstate 90 until we turned south at GLUES.  I actually ended up at 11,500' because of a cloud deck over the Cascades (only extended from BANDR to ELN).  Since it was so ccccccold yesterday, I averaged a true airspeed of just over 150k at 8.6 GPH.  Surprised the guy in BTM when he found out we went over 450nm on 30 gallons.

 

Shop rates vary from about $65 to $90/hour.  This year we took the plane to TTD.  Greg and Ed at the Service Center did the annual.  Basic cost if they don't find anything is something around $2200.  For scheduling, convenience, and price; next year we think we will have it done by Mike Boaz at S50.  I think his shop rate is $65/hour and he has helped us out several times when we had issues.  He already does the annual on a few other Mooneys and we trust him to do good honest work.  Since you fly out of S50, if you look down the last row of hangars (the big ones on the south end) and see his red car (VW?) parked there, he's there.  I think he has another job and does the work in his free time so he is not always there.

 

Good luck,

 

Bob