Aspen vs Steam/Mechanical

[Seth]

Erik and I met up when he was in town and we started talking about Aspen's vs steam/mechanical instruments.

 

When my HSI/Artificial Horizon/Altimeter/something breaks and needs an overhaul, I may very well upgrade to an Aspen and thus get GPSS for my A/P.  Overhaul of an HSI is $3500ish (ballpark) and GPSS install would be about $3000 (ballpark).  For $6500, you are well on your way to an Aspen unit.  However, then you have to redesign your panel as well as deal with the reliability of the Aspen units.

 

So - two questions on this poll.

 

1.  Are you considering adding an Aspen unit?  Yes?  Maybe?  scenarios?  No.

 

2.  Do you know of any Aspen failures?  Yours?  Friends? 

 

I have four local pilots who have Aspens and two of the four have failed.  One owner (who is an early adopter) has had multiple replacements under warranty.  Three of these four pilots are on MooneySpace.

 

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

 

-Seth

[Skywarrior]

You need to allow a "none of the above" option on the second question.

[urbanti]

For serious IMC, the Aspens are really great. They shrink the size of your scan.

I'm on replacements of both PFD and MFD,

Tim

[ArtVandelay]

When the time comes I have a severe HSI problem...I'll make that decision then, I already have GPSS, hopefully good used non electronic HSI will be so cheap I'll just pick one up They really don't have much competition, Sandel's 4500 EHSI run $17000, for less function.

[FlyWalt]

I drive around in an EFIS equipped jet at work. I like keeping my scan in tune on the old six pack instruments in my Mooney.

[N201MKTurbo]

I hate to say it but an Aspen gives me no more capability then the steam gauges.

 

I can't fly any more approaches. It seems less reliable and it costs a lot of money.

 

What's the point of getting it?

 

They are cool looking, but that is a lot of money for cool...

[Marauder]

Seth -- being the defacto President of the Cheap Bast%$d Club, I took a LONG hard look at the available technologies before I decided upon the Aspen. What I found was that between initial launch and 2009, Aspen seemed to have problems with the initial offerings. Like any electronic device, you can design a great box but until you get it into the environment, you just don't know how well it will hold up. I'm sure that Aspen did their environmental testing as part of both the certification and electronic performance regiment. But those tests are no where the kind of environments products can see in real life. I also think they probably had some initial supplier issues. An example was the quality of the harness connector back at the antenna. From what I can tell, these issues have been identified and corrected.

 

In addition, I believe like Peter Garmin has stated, there are probably failures due to poor installations. In fact, my new Garmin 650 has given me more challenges than the Aspens. Aspen comes standard with a two year warranty and you can purchase an additional 2 years for what I consider a reasonable price.

 

As for the technology, dollar for dollar you cannot beat what you get in the Aspens. I am more than pleasantly surprised with what is wrapped up in the Aspen products. They really did take a look at how GA people spend their money and approached the market from an integration perspective. My 20 year old Narco Nav/Com is perfectly happy talking to the Aspens. I load up a VOR signal or an ILS and I get the benefit of the HSI while still being able to overlay an GPS signal that is available. As well, my 16 year old STEC AP has a whole new performance level due to the built in Aspen GPSS.  

 

The biggest benefit to me is the redundancy. I always had dual ILS capability, engine monitors and backup gauges (like fuel pressure). With the Aspen 2000, I can have a complete AHRS/display failure on the PFD (which has not happened in the 2 years I have owned them) and immediately switch over and crossfeed the MFD to become a PFD. I have it setup so that it will also take over the autopilot navigation during reversion. Coupled with the battery backups, I have the backups I wanted.

 

The only gripe I hear on the Aspens are the screen size. It is not a Garmin G500, but the screen size is sufficient and is clearly bright enough with enough resolution not to be an issue. Since you are close to me, come on over some time and you can fly it.

[Marauder]

Seth -- one other point... How I got started down this path was related to the Garmin 650 upgrade. I was going to have one of my CDIs replaced with the Garmin 106A (I didn't own an HSI). The cost of doing that was close to $3k as well. That got me looking at both the Garmin G500 and the Aspens. Which as you know, was difficult for me as a Cheap Bast$%d.

[carusoam]

The HSI is nice...

I've always been an analog display kind of guy. Even the precision watch has analog looking hands.

But, it just does't have all the usable bells and whistles that an Aspen can have.

I think I could like having wind direction and speed displayed with a picture of the runway, right where it is supposed to be.

Since color aviation displays and IPads have had years of development behind them, the early adoption challenges are becoming less and less of an issue. Installation still seems to be a major challenge.

I would prefer to stay with the KSN770 to stay in the same sand box as my AP.

To spread the investment out over the years, can a three screen Aspen system. Be logically spread out?

My WingX screen is pretty impressive. High density usable data, logically located, with deep databases.

What is BK going to offering in the near future?

Has Peter Garmin gone with a G500 system yet? Peter has been unusually quiet lately.

The end of the analog era is nigh...

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

Seth- I recently had an aspen efd 1000 pro pfd installed in my missile... Solicited or not, here's my two cents-

I had a sandel SN3500 on my last J that I picked up for 3 AMU's on eBay, and when I moved over to the missile, I found I was spoiled and really missed the EHSI functionality of the sandel... So when I took the missile in to Chief to have an engine monitor installed (CGR-30P... Review is in a different thread), I inquired about aspen install prices. I had been scouring ebay for another SN3500, but after 6 months, still hadn't found one for the price I was looking to spend. Much like Marauder: I'm a member-at-large of the cheap Ba$tard club. Anyway- the price I was quoted was about 1500 less, installed, than anywhere else ive seen, so grudgingly, I opened my wallet.

From a strictly EHSI perspective, the SN3500 is, IMO, superior. The needles are bigger, it has a moving map mode in addition to the arc and HSI modes, and most importantly, is a bigger display area. I also like how the SN3500's knobs were longer. I felt like the buttons and interface were easier to use as well- but that last part is more subjective rather than objective.

The PFD is nice. The scan is tight. I don't have the SVT or velocity vector- those functions look nice... But... Reference "cheap" comments above.

I *HATE* the lack of needles on the pfd display. I really wish they would overlay needles smack dab over the Whiskey line, like every other modern PDF I've flown. Those little diamonds that are at the bottom and side of the display suck (IMO... Feel free to try to talk sense into me on that... Maybe it's just a personal thing for me).

But... Like turbo mentioned above - the display doesn't give me any new capability. Although I do now have a backup ADI, which makes me a bit less jumpy in hard IFR (albeit still points for single mode failure... Like the engine).

Would I do it again? I don't know. If I could get another sn3500 I would probably go with that instead, unless my ADI were failing....

[Marauder]

Seth- I recently had an aspen efd 1000 pro pfd installed in my missile... Solicited or not, here's my two cents-

I had a sandel SN3500 on my last J that I picked up for 3 AMU's on eBay, and when I moved over to the missile, I found I was spoiled and really missed the EHSI functionality of the sandel... So when I took the missile in to Chief to have an engine monitor installed (CGR-30P... Review is in a different thread), I inquired about aspen install prices. I had been scouring ebay for another SN3500, but after 6 months, still hadn't found one for the price I was looking to spend. Much like Marauder: I'm a member-at-large of the cheap Ba$tard club. Anyway- the price I was quoted was about 1500 less, installed, than anywhere else ive seen, so grudgingly, I opened my wallet.

From a strictly EHSI perspective, the SN3500 is, IMO, superior. The needles are bigger, it has a moving map mode in addition to the arc and HSI modes, and most importantly, is a bigger display area. I also like how the SN3500's knobs were longer. I felt like the buttons and interface were easier to use as well- but that last part is more subjective rather than objective.

The PFD is nice. The scan is tight. I don't have the SVT or velocity vector- those functions look nice... But... Reference "cheap" comments above.

I *HATE* the lack of needles on the pfd display. I really wish they would overlay needles smack dab over the Whiskey line, like every other modern PDF I've flown. Those little diamonds that are at the bottom and side of the display suck (IMO... Feel free to try to talk sense into me on that... Maybe it's just a personal thing for me).

But... Like turbo mentioned above - the display doesn't give me any new capability. Although I do now have a backup ADI, which makes me a bit less jumpy in hard IFR (albeit still points for single mode failure... Like the engine).

Would I do it again? I don't know. If I could get another sn3500 I would probably go with that instead, unless my ADI were failing....

I wasn't sure what you meant by the lack of "needles" on the HSI until I pulled up the SN3500's manual. I never had an HSI, so being weened on a DG and a ILS capable CDI I found the Aspen's depiction on the attitude indicator for precision approaches a big improvement over the split scan I used to do with the DG and CDI. The transition for me wasn't an issue (perhaps because I play video games too )

Interestingly, when the MFD's secondary HSI is activated, it displays the VDI on the HSI. Not the needle you like, but on the same display.

The nice thing about these devices is the fact they are firmware driven. Enhancements can be added. For me, an owner who flew IFR for 22 years with steam gauges and just VOR/ILS hardware (ok, I'll admit I also had an ADF), I'm a kid in a candy store...

Can't wait to add the traffic and weather to it.

[OR75]

I see one real benefit of the Aspen: it helps get more space behind a Mooney panel and reduces weight / sag of the panel.

For sure it looks great, but I am not convinced it will increase safety or accuracy

[Piloto]

I though about the Aspen but I prefer the Aera 560 HSI presentation, specially the vertical guidance blue bar. I can set the 560 OBS to a runway with no approach at all and get horizontal and vertical guidance as accurate as LPV. Very handy when approaching RWY 13 at KFXE.

 

José

[BorealOne]

I love my Aspen, particularly for the GPSS autopilot driving capabilities, which are a significant reason to upgrade for anyone flying hard single-pilot IFR. However, it's not without its shortcomings. My squawk list, in order of personal significance would be:   1. AHRS not quite primetime. I've found a few places up North but well south of the magnetic pole (i.e. around Ft. Smith, NWT on northbound headings) where the magnetometer data routinely goes wonky and the system loses heading and attitude. I've compared my flying experiences in those same areas with guys flying behind Garmins, and they don't have the same failures.    2. Stupid diamonds instead of needles - I'm with M016576 on this point. It'd be an easy and far superior interface representation, especially on dodgy approaches.   3. VSI trend data not all useful - give me numbers i can use, not trends I can't.   That said, if someone was to tell me to go back to the old analog HSI, I'd tell 'em to get lost. I'm more than happy having glass, and I'm very happy with the Aspen form factor, fit and the above nitpicking aside, function. 

[Bob - S50]

I'm in a partnership so I would have to get a majority vote for any changes.  We currently have steam gauges with an HSI.  I don't think I can fly without an HSI anymore.  If our ADI/HSI quit, I would have to look at the cost of repair vs an Aspen install and how long I could expect to fly before I could expect a failure.

 

From what I've read about the Aspen, I like some of the extra features you get.

 

I am definitely a steam gauge kind of guy (14,000 hours in a steam gauge DC9), so even with the Aspen, my scan would be the same... ADI out to some steam gauge or HSI and back.  I would not be using the digital display of speed or altitude.  Digital displays are nice if you are looking for precise information.  I'm going 154 knots, not 155 knots.  Analog, at least for me, makes it easier to detect trends.  A moving airspeed or altitude needle will get my attention quicker than changing digits.  I know there is also the sliding scale, but it just doesn't get my attention.

 

Analog also allows me to use what I first heard referred to as "the big stare".  Stare at the ADI and all the other instruments will be visible but not in focus.  However, even when not in focus, a moving needle will get your attention.  I still do a scan, but a much slower one that does not wear me out as quickly.  For me, I cannot do that with a digital display.

 

I guess what they say about teaching old dogs new tricks is true.

 

Then again, I heard about one of our DC9 captains who had a young commuter pilot on his jumpseat.  After spending some time looking at the instrument panel the jumpseater looked at the captain and asked, "how do you know where you are?"  Works both ways.

 

Bob

[N201MKTurbo]

 

Then again, I heard about one of our DC9 captains who had a young commuter pilot on his jumpseat.  After spending some time looking at the instrument panel the jumpseater looked at the captain and asked, "how do you know where you are?"  Works both ways.

 

Bob

 

Everybody always talks about transition training for glass panels. I have often thought some young pilot who has flown nothing but glass would not be safe in a steam gauge airplane in the soup.

 

Who would have thought that flying with a perfectly functioning AI and DG would be considered partial panel.

[Marauder]

Everybody always talks about transition training for glass panels. I have often thought some young pilot who has flown nothing but glass would not be safe in a steam gauge airplane in the soup. Who would have thought that flying with a perfectly functioning AI and DG would be considered partial panel.

The big transition for me was the speed and altitude tapes. Since I still have the analogs in the plane, my scan naturally went to them. I made a conscious decision to cover them until I felt comfortable with the tapes. Confirmation of this transition for me was my IPC last week where the CFII set up unusual attitudes and my assessment and correction was based on the tapes not the analogs. For the hardcore analog guys, most, if not all of these PFDs have the ability to shut off the tapes as long as the analog hardware is present. These discussions are just like the flap versus no flaps take-offs, T&Gs or no T&Gs and ROP or LOP discussions. Bottom line, do whatever makes you happy and just don't kill yourself making yourself happy

[ArtVandelay]

Best part of the G1000, was the diamond indicating the direction (wind corrected), just point it at the diamond and watch the altitude, I assume the Aspen has this as well. IMHO HSI is a minimum requirement.

[mike_elliott]

Best part of the G1000, was the diamond indicating the direction (wind corrected), just point it at the diamond and watch the altitude, I assume the Aspen has this as well. IMHO HSI is a minimum requirement.

The Aspen does. 

[Hank]

I've only been flying for eight years, but just like a digital watch, I have to look at tapes and concentrate to tell what it is, but with needles I can tell at a glance. The tape never moves, the altitude is always right there at 3:00 whether your at 1000' msl or 10,000' msl.

Besides, the Aspen won't interface with my Brittain units, which gives me 2-D GPSS through the 430W. So for a whole lotta time and cash, I get a whiz-bang display to stare at, instead of round gauges to glance at. No thank you . . .

[Marauder]

The Aspen does.

[Marauder]

I've only been flying for eight years, but just like a digital watch, I have to look at tapes and concentrate to tell what it is, but with needles I can tell at a glance. The tape never moves, the altitude is always right there at 3:00 whether your at 1000' msl or 10,000' msl.

Besides, the Aspen won't interface with my Brittain units, which gives me 2-D GPSS through the 430W. So for a whole lotta time and cash, I get a whiz-bang display to stare at, instead of round gauges to glance at. No thank you . . .

Hank -- glass isn't for everyone. Heck GPS wasn't even on my radar until 2012 and I have been flying since the 80s. And I certainly had buyer's remorse trying to figure out how to load an approach and then to understand what "suspend" and "unsuspend" meant.

The same for the Aspens. It was a good 10 hours before I felt comfortable with everything. And for some folks, it is even longer.

If you are happy with your setup, nothing else matters.

[mike_elliott]

Hard to see the blue triangle in this photo for your wind correction course, but it's there.

I gotta give it to Hank, the aspen, or g500 won't interface to the Brittan AP. I don't know of a glass solution that does. I didn't know you could even still buy a Brittan AP, so I certainly understand why not many are going through the expense to certify with the brittan. That's not to say it's a bad ap, just that it lacks fiscal sense for aspen to develope the iterface and go thru the cert process.

[Marauder]

Hard to see the blue triangle in this photo for your wind correction course, but it's there.

I gotta give it to Hank, the aspen, or g500 won't interface to the Brittan AP. I don't know of a glass solution that does. I didn't know you could even still buy a Brittan AP, so I certainly understand why not many are going through the expense to certify with the brittan. That's not to say it's a bad ap, just that it lacks fiscal sense for aspen to develope the iterface and go thru the cert process.

The blue diamond is the ground track. The arrow was pointing to the wind arrow and the numbers were providing wind direction and speed. Lousy photo...

This photo is a little better. The blue triangle at the end of the CDI needle is the ground track. The stuff in the red circle is the winds aloft.

[Marauder]

Hard to see the blue triangle in this photo for your wind correction course, but it's there.

I gotta give it to Hank, the aspen, or g500 won't interface to the Brittan AP. I don't know of a glass solution that does. I didn't know you could even still buy a Brittan AP, so I certainly understand why not many are going through the expense to certify with the brittan. That's not to say it's a bad ap, just that it lacks fiscal sense for aspen to develope the iterface and go thru the cert process.

I don't think Brittians are made any longer. They are just supporting the products they produced. When I went looking for Accutrak/Accuflight stuff back in the 90s I was having a hard time locating anything. That is what took me down the STEC path.