ADS-B is coming-What are you doing about it?

[JaredDavis]

Another reason to delay:

 

I'm waiting for details on L3's offering. http://www.l-3lynx.com/

 

I don't have a wass gps source in my plane.  L3's single box gps + mode S transponder is an attractive option.  At least I get to replace my old KT76 TSO mode c transponder.

 

I will handle adsb-in with ipad + portable dual freq adb-in. On the fence on the ahrs option.

[N201MKTurbo]

I think data comm is the weather we are getting.

[Marauder]

Before the Senate Committee on Commerce, Subcommittee on Aviation on NextGen

June 25, 2014

Statement of Michael G. Whitaker, Deputy Administrator, FAA

(I pulled these excerpts from his testimony)

1. Allows more precise and efficient spacing of aircraft, which enables airlines to take advantage of fuel-saving NextGen procedures

2. improving our ability to perform life-saving search-and-rescue operations.

3. the technology upgrades that will enable future capabilities to more efficiently and safely manage existing traffic and incorporate new users in the national air space.

4. four NextGen areas that will be our priority: performance based navigation; surface operations; multiple runway operations and DataComm

5. we were able to transform Houston’s airspace, thanks to close collaboration with labor, environmental streamlining and concurrent reviews.We flipped the switch on 61 new procedures that take advantage of the precision of GPS technology to untangle the congested airspace shared by multiple airports. These new procedures are estimated to save airlines 3 million gallons of fuel per year while reducing carbon emissions by 31,000 metric tons. That’s the equivalent of removing more than 6,000 cars from the streets of Houston.

6. We plan to replicate or improve upon these benefits at more than a dozen other busy metropolitan areas across the country.

Does anyone have addition info on "DataComm" ? I have not heard much about this "crucial foundational element of NextGen"

Not a lot of meat for GA... (Our version of GA).

[aviatoreb]

I just signed the contract to have the TT31 installed in my plane on Sep 23.  I slightly prefer the KT74 for the buttons but the TT31 is the same thing in its guts, and gets the job done just the same and at the same price point install and acquisition.  I need a transponder now for my next IFR cert so I am not in the mood to wait around and I am quite pleased with the TT31.

[Hondo]

If you have a Garmin WAAS GPS, does it make sense to wait for the KT74?

The KT74 was made by Trig.  Garmin was founded by engineers who left Bendix King.

 

The KT74 costs 1500 to 2000 less than the GTX330ES, but the GTX is available now, provides traffic to the 430W/530W or the GTN650/750, has OAT, timers, alerts, communicates with other Garmin products like the 496/696 and compatibility is not an issue.

 

Features:  https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/garmingtx330es.php

 

Q&A     https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/garmingtx330es.php.

 

The last time I 'saved' money I ended up with an orphaned product.

[BobAustin]

Hondo,

 

Interesting post re KT-74 vs GTX330ES...I have a G430W and a panel mounted 696.  The screen on the G430W is too small to display traffic but the 696 would be perfect.  Does the GTX330ES have the ability to show traffic on the 696 ?

[aviatoreb]

Hondo, I had the thoughts you did - about possible obsolescence, but that can happen to any equipment.  This is something I was thinking about all summer.  And I jumped as soon as the TT31 became certified for full ADSB install (I would have jumped on the KT74 if it had been first).

 

I could foresee either Garmin deliberately obsolescing the TT31 (which I am installing Sept 23) by changing data format and withholding the information from other companies, or perhaps from Trig just going out of business, or what not.  It could happen.

Im banking against it.  I just have a problem with the computation that I should turn down a $2600 high quality Trig transponder solution to buy the  Garmin $4100 solution, just in case.  Actually, the gap is a bit bigger than that - I have the quote for install complete for both and the Garmin GTX330ES  is more expensive to install so the gap is ~$2000.  SO that is almost 100% of the cost of the trig as insurance.  I have decided to self insure as it were and take the risk on the trig and hope you are wrong, but if I am wrong, then I can afford to install something else later.  I think I would not take the same position if I we were talking about installing a $15k primary GPS.

 

As far as traffic on the gns430w - the gtx330ES can show traffic on my gns430w via mode s - and mode s for the time being is still active and likely to remain active for the time being in the north east (I read a circular to that effect from the FAA) and since I fly mostly in the north east, that is worthwhile.  However, the 430w is a small screen and I am usually looking at the data page for navigation.  Meanwhile the adsb of either the gtx330es or the tt31 would both allow my gdl393d to get an excellent traffic view by adsb and that will display on my iPad on my yoke, which I do keep on a page to show traffic (on the map).  So I don't feel like i will miss anything.

[mooniac15u]

Hondo, I had the thoughts you did - about possible obsolescence, but that can happen to any equipment.  This is something I was thinking about all summer.  And I jumped as soon as the TT31 became certified for full ADSB install (I would have jumped on the KT74 if it had been first).

 

I could foresee either Garmin deliberately obsolescing the TT31 (which I am installing Sept 23) by changing data format and withholding the information from other companies, or perhaps from Trig just going out of business, or what not.  It could happen.

Im banking against it.  I just have a problem with the computation that I should turn down a $2600 high quality Trig transponder solution to buy the  Garmin $4100 solution, just in case.  Actually, the gap is a bit bigger than that - I have the quote for install complete for both and the Garmin GTX330ES  is more expensive to install so the gap is ~$2000.  SO that is almost 100% of the cost of the trig as insurance.  I have decided to self insure as it were and take the risk on the trig and hope you are wrong, but if I am wrong, then I can afford to install something else later.  I think I would not take the same position if I we were talking about installing a $15k primary GPS.

 

As far as traffic on the gns430w - the gtx330ES can show traffic on my gns430w via mode s - and mode s for the time being is still active and likely to remain active for the time being in the north east (I read a circular to that effect from the FAA) and since I fly mostly in the north east, that is worthwhile.  However, the 430w is a small screen and I am usually looking at the data page for navigation.  Meanwhile the adsb of either the gtx330es or the tt31 would both allow my gdl393d to get an excellent traffic view by adsb and that will display on my iPad on my yoke, which I do keep on a page to show traffic (on the map).  So I don't feel like i will miss anything.

 

Is there an STC for the TT31 for Mooneys with a Garmin GPS as the position source?  The STC for the KT-74 doesn't yet include a Garmin source.

[mooniac15u]

Is there an STC for the TT31 for Mooneys with a Garmin GPS as the position source?  The STC for the KT-74 doesn't yet include a Garmin source.

 

Never mind, I found it.  The Trig website has an older version of the STC but the FAA site has it.  I couldn't find it because it is listed under Peregrine rather than Trig.

[aviatoreb]

Never mind, I found it.  The Trig website has an older version of the STC but the FAA site has it.  I couldn't find it because it is listed under Peregrine rather than Trig.

 

Yes, it was approved about 2 or 3 weeks ago, which was then I decided to go trig.  I was already in negotiations for the gtx330es since as I said I need a new transponder for my upcoming IFR cert, so literally the day I was about to sign a contract to include the gtx330ES I saw an announcement released that day that the tt31 was now certified.  SO I switched.

 

I would assume that the KT74 will certify very soon too since in principle it is supposed to be very similar to the TT31.  I briefly considered therefore having the KT74 installed but not connected yet to the ADSB out (since not allowed) anticipating it would be a short wait - why - cuz I think he KT74 looks nicer - not a hugely important reason in my book - so I decided on TT31 since I figured it would be just frustrating anticipating waiting for the poky FAA to certify something that I would have invested in.

[ArtVandelay]

Never mind, I found it.  The Trig website has an older version of the STC but the FAA site has it.  I couldn't find it because it is listed under Peregrine rather than Trig.

Note it only approves 430/530, not the 650/750

[Hondo]

Hondo,

 

Interesting post re KT-74 vs GTX330ES...I have a G430W and a panel mounted 696.  The screen on the G430W is too small to display traffic but the 696 would be perfect.  Does the GTX330ES have the ability to show traffic on the 696 ?

 

Bob,

 

According to the first question in the Q&A, it does, but I would verify that with Garmin.

[Thunder669]

I am looking to buy my first plane this winter after tax time so hopefully late feb or early march. After talking to an owner on my home field and sitting in his bird (he had just shut down and didn't have time for me to go for a ride) I am 99% sure I will be buying an m20f. So this whole subject is of big interest to me. Assuming I get a bird with a stock panel with all steam gauges and no panel GPS what is the cheapest deal to be compliant? I currently just use an iPad, with iPhone as back up running foreflight in the Cherokee I rent and plan to pick up a stratus 2 soon. Need to figure out how much to spend on plane and still make it compliant because avoiding controlled airspace isn't practical for my future mission. You guys obviously have much more knowledge then me

[Marauder]

The cheapest way today is to install a Mode S transponder that is "out" compliant.

[ArtVandelay]

The cheapest way today is to install a Mode S transponder that is "out" compliant.

Only if you already have a WAAS GPS, otherwise, maybe GDL-88 with internal WAAS GPS for $4500, add Flight Stream and you can have WX/traffic on the iPad.

[Releew]

Avionics are being upgraded as soon as the GDL 88 hardware is delivered. My Avionics shop tell's me they are running a minimal of 2 weeks behind on shipping. Going down this path will give me the best possible weather and traffic information at a reasonable price when coupled with the G530 as well as comply with the 2020 ADSB out requirement. It seemed like a no-brainer based on the pricing at 5K installed. I currently have the GDL 39 antenna coupled to the Area 510 and an Android Tablet running Garmin Pilot. Works OK but not like the 88 system I've seen in a friends plane. My understand is the 88 system actually initiates a wake up call to the ground station for information and the 39 is simply a receiver if the station is up and active. Will know for sure in 30 days....hopefully!

[wishboneash]

Avionics are being upgraded as soon as the GDL 88 hardware is delivered. My Avionics shop tell's me they are running a minimal of 2 weeks behind on shipping. Going down this path will give me the best possible weather and traffic information at a reasonable price when coupled with the G530 as well as comply with the 2020 ADSB out requirement. It seemed like a no-brainer based on the pricing at 5K installed. I currently have the GDL 39 antenna coupled to the Area 510 and an Android Tablet running Garmin Pilot. Works OK but not like the 88 system I've seen in a friends plane. My understand is the 88 system actually initiates a wake up call to the ground station for information and the 39 is simply a receiver if the station is up and active. Will know for sure in 30 days....hopefully!

 

Any ADS-B out equipment will wake up the ground based equipment to give you the full traffic picture in your vicinity. The beauty of the GDL-88 is that it drives your panel mount Garmin GPS and other Garmin displays and gives an audio alert on your headsets. I prefer this to the annunciations on the iPad or other portable devices and gets your attention quickly. To me this worth the money spent than trying to mix and match different vendors' equipment. 

[Thunder669]

So by the sounds of it I should budget atleast 5k into my purchase minimum to make it compliant, or would it be closer to 10k? I eventually plan to do a serious upgrade farther down the road but will be financing the plane and plan to keep it for a very long time. But may have to go minimal at first till there are a few less expenses then go all out

[cliffy]

You will need at  least a UAT with WAAS tied to your C mode transponder for the "OUT" compliance solution. 5K is about right today. What you do for "IN" is a different story as it is not mandated. The UAT that you buy may come with WiFi for "IN" to an iPad (only some do) if you want "IN".

Mode S xponders have to have a WAAS source somewhere available. It must be a TSO'd source to boot. Portables don't count. 

ALL ADS-B solutions have to have 3 things:

Transponder (Mode C or S)

GPS WAAS source TSO only

Some way to talk to the ADS-B towers  (UATs or Mode S transponder)

[Alan Fox]

Yesterday I bought a KT74 , will wait for Plane to get out of the paint shop , and Install it ...

[wishboneash]

Avidyne has a promotion for their IFD540 panel GPS with their AXP340 ADS-B out transponder for around $17.6 AMU. The solution is equivalent to the GTN750 + GTX330ES.

[chrisk]

I just signed the contract to have the TT31 installed in my plane on Sep 23.  I slightly prefer the KT74 for the buttons but the TT31 is the same thing in its guts, and gets the job done just the same and at the same price point install and acquisition.  I need a transponder now for my next IFR cert so I am not in the mood to wait around and I am quite pleased with the TT31.

 

I've had the TT31 for about a year and am very happy with it, and with the simple interface it has.  I can see the single buttons of the 330ES, or the KT74 being hit multiple times in turbulence.    --and for those that don't know:  For theTT31, you rotate the dial to select a digit, then hit enter.  Repeat 4 times to put the code in.  Anyway, I write the transponder code down for read back, so I'm not to concerned with the speed of code entry.  --Oh, there is a VFR button for 1200, which is super fast.

 

Also, I am not thrilled with all the integration in the cockpit.  I would prefer to have separate units for:  com, nav, gps position source, navigation data base /  display, transponder, cdi, etc.  Integrating everything together is only going to be expensive when one component breaks later.  Now, I want them to all communicate together, but not physically be in the same unit.    In this day and age, the only reason to go with a single unit is for the vendors benefit.

[Bill Dunn]

Good Morning Guys,

 

I am an Avionics Tech here at Penn Avionics on Brandywine Airport (KMQS) in West Chester, PA. I am new to this forum but our customers suggested we get on the forums out there to answer questions and just give general help.

 

ADS-B is a very confusing subject until you get all the information. There are MANY ways to get compliant, which one is right for you all depends on what you have and what your goals are. We have installed quite a few GDL-88s displaying on all of the different Garmin units (430,530,650,750) it is a very good solution but it has its bugs right now that are still being worked out.

 

From my understanding (don't quote me yet I'm still doing research) FreeFlights box is the main competitor. I also am lead to believe that Aspen basically bought this box and is getting their own STCs for it so they can brand it. Bendix, I believe, is doing the same thing.

 

All of the "remote box" solutions are around the same cost, and the "ES" transponders are even close as well.

 

Please if you guys have any questions the best way to get ahold of me is PM or email and that is Bill@pennavionics.com. I will try and be on here daily checking the forums to see if I can help with anything.

[aviatoreb]

I've had the TT31 for about a year and am very happy with it, and with the simple interface it has.  I can see the single buttons of the 330ES, or the KT74 being hit multiple times in turbulence.    --and for those that don't know:  For theTT31, you rotate the dial to select a digit, then hit enter.  Repeat 4 times to put the code in.  Anyway, I write the transponder code down for read back, so I'm not to concerned with the speed of code entry.  --Oh, there is a VFR button for 1200, which is super fast.

 

Also, I am not thrilled with all the integration in the cockpit.  I would prefer to have separate units for:  com, nav, gps position source, navigation data base /  display, transponder, cdi, etc.  Integrating everything together is only going to be expensive when one component breaks later.  Now, I want them to all communicate together, but not physically be in the same unit.    In this day and age, the only reason to go with a single unit is for the vendors benefit.

 

Thanks Chris. That is good to hear you like it - my install starts Monday.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Bill,

We always appreciate the service organizations joining us here.

FYI, we have a forum section specific for our vendors to engage in more commercial like activities.

Best regards,

-a-