Garmin 430 non WAAS in 1965 M20E STC Help

[tjkelly212]

I just installed a used Garmin 430 (non WAAS) in my M20E.  However, the radio shop tells me that I have to write my own manual and try to get it field approved for IFR operations.

 

Surely he is uninformed and there is already an STC out there for this.  I know I'm not the only M20E with a 430.  Is no one using them for IFR operations?

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Marauder]

Where did you get the radio? Any radio shop worth dealing with should be able to tell you how the certification process works. Garmin holds the original STC/TSO for the equipment. i would call them first and get the scoop on what is required. My Garmin came with all the required documentation for certification. 

[kortopates]

Are you saying YOU installed it or an avionics shop? That may be an issue since they only authorize Garmin dealers to install on certified AC. Either way though, you really need to give Garmin Tech Support a call to find out their policy (and perhaps fee) for transferring the STC. I assume they allow it since their are lots of used Garmin devices sold, but its up to them and not all manufacturers do. (For example Horizon does not, making their stuff worthless on the used market for certified AC and either STEC does not or is not affordable to transfer.) Assuming its transferable you can get the POH supplement (AFSM) from them directly. You use to be able to download a copy from their website directly, maybe you still can.

 

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[tjkelly212]

I bought it used out of a Cirrus for a great deal from a radio shop.  My mechanic and I installed it.  He's an A&P and AI so we filled out the 337 as required and sent it in.  However, since he doesn't deal with this type stuff regularly, he had me ask the radio shop what was required on the 337 to make it IFR legal.  The radio shop told him that it would require a field approval from the FSDO.  As it is, it's only VFR legal.  Again per the radio shop.

 

I also don't believe that the radio shop is an authorized Garmin Dealer.  But I didn't ask.

 

So now I have a VFR legal 430 and don't know where to go next.

 

I'm also working on my IFR rating (85%) complete.  And need to get this taken care of before I can take my check ride.

 

The only thing I've found on Garmin's website is for a 430W.  Nothing on a 430.

[Marauder]

To make it IFR legal, it will need to meet TSO 129 requirements. Since you bypassed the radio shop for the installation, I'm sure they are not willing to help. Contact Garmin and see what is required.

[scottfromiowa]

I don't think the radio shop is the one "uninformed" here...

[cliffy]

It can be done. It will require a fly off to check accuracy BTW, did you connect it to your autopilot? If so you have complicated things as far as compatibility with the A/P is concerned. The paper work is quite detailed in what is required to be submitted for IFR approval. There are copies of other applications for approval that can be cloned available on the internet but it takes a lot of digging. I saw several awhile back but did not save the URL. 

You might be able to purchase a clonable set of paper work from a quality radio shop that has done this install. I got one a while back that way for a Garmin 155 TSO install. 

Do pull up a copt of the 129 TSO for reference. You do need that.

[kris_adams]

Just curious what the avionics shop was going to charge to install it?  Maybe they'd be willing to help for a "portion" of the install fee.  I have a 430 that was recently upgraded to WAAS so I'd be happy to help with copies of my paperwork but I'm not even certain what you would need.

 

Kris

[Bob - S50]

I must be confused.  I thought the GNS430 (non-WAAS) was IFR certified for enroute and VOR/LOC/ILS/RNAV approaches, just not LPV or LNAV/VNAV approaches.  I don't think its an equipment limitation.  Isn't it just a matter of some inflight testing under VMC and then getting someone to perform a 'ground' check with the proper test equipment?  If everything works, don't they then just sign off and submit a 337?  Whoever had the unit before should have the flight supplement for you and you can download the pilot guide for free off the website.

 

Just asking.

 

Bob

[DonMuncy]

No, converting the 430 to 430W requires the factory to redo it. I don't know what Garmin does, but it requires their work.

[N601RX]

The non wass 430 is like the older king stuff which does not have a stc that covers all models. On these the stc only covers a single model plane and then all other models require a follow on field approval. It will also require you to write a flight manual supplement for it. You will then have to submit the flight manual supplement to the FSDO for approval. If you don't have a recent copy they have approved expect it to get passed back and fourth a few times before they approve it. Once you get the flight manual supplement approved, and flight testing done the FSDO will approve the 337. The process is detailed in ac 20-138b if I remember correctly. Look for a flight manual supp that has been previously approved by the the same inspector or FSDO and enter your plane specific info and let your IA resubmit it for approval. Contrary to what garmin would like you to believe both the 430 and 430w can be installed by an IA. You do not have to use their approved service centers.

Another option is to send it back to garmin for the wass upgrade at which point you can use the 430 wass stc and already approved FMS. The 430w stc covers most all models. At this point your IA can fill out the 337 for the STC and your done.

[drapo]

My M20E is equiped with a GNS430 and the GPS is to be used for VFR only. In order to get it IFR certified, I would need to have an avionic specialist inspect it and certifiy the installation and have a flight test done and then send the paperwork to Transport Canada to have the GPS portion certified in my airplane. The other way around it is to deal with a Garmin dealer and upgrade to a GNS430W which has an STC for my M20E. Costs are about the same, around $5000...

[Cruiser]

At this point it sounds like you need the help of a friendly avionics shop that is a Garmin dealer. Talk to them in person if possible and see if they are willing to help you. A Garmin dealer can get all the necessary paperwork from Garmin and they will need to flight test the unit and make the appropriate entries in your log books.

 

There are two separate approvals. 

First the GPS unit must be approved for IFR (which the Garmin GNS430 is)

Second the INSTALLATION must be approved for IFR use in your airplane.

[MB65E]

Hi Guys!   I just found the supplement dated 1-28-2014 and signed on the Garmin Website!!!!  Insert Make, Model, and S/N!  Depending on how your IA filed the 337, you might just need a log entry stating approved for IFR flight as long as the supplement is in the aircraft.  Best bet is to possibly re-file the 337 IAW with STC…. 

 

Crap….Never Mind….. You have a NON Waas unit. Let me check again...

 

Nope,  the AML and FML are not listed on the website.  Maybe Treklawler  (Garmin guy here on MS) could jump in here for some help.  He was helpful with some Waas antenna issues a few months ago.

 

It's out there, Garmin should help you.  Did you have an auto pilot hooked to it?  Won't make much difference this far in. However, I have many IA's/Avionics installers state that a 337 is not even required if the unit is a standalone. Im in the fence with the VFR install, but its a good idea IFR.

 

http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/190-00357-03.pdf

 

Hang in there!

-Matt

[N601RX]

Garmin only STC'd the non wass unit for a single model of the Piper. Any other plane is a field approval.

[MARZ]

Check here -http://www.aviator.cc/bonanza/mx/avionics/gns430%20install.pdf STC is in the booklet - but do check with Garmin on your particular unit - there may be an updated guide

[larryb]

Just curious. Can the airplane be flown while all this paperwork is being sorted out?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Are you asking...

a) flown or

b ) flown IFR or

c) flown IFR in IMC?

d) flown IFR in IMC using this device for primary navigation?

See where this is going?

Best regards,

-a-

[aerobat95]

And this is why general aviation is dying.  Lets see same box in an experimental installed by someone with unknown skills and the aircraft can still fly IFR???  Enough is enough with the whole certified aircraft crap and its time to using some damn common sense. 

[aerobat95]

Just curious. Can the airplane be flown while all this paperwork is being sorted out?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yup the aircraft will fly just fine.....and probably safer with the 430 then with whatever was in it before......

[Lood]

Interesting. I asked an avionics shop here in South Africa to be on the lookout for a well priced, used Garmin 430. I only fly VFR and I quote his reply below:

 

"To install a second hand GNS 430 these days is a no go with the CAA as they want an STC to be made up for it. This can cost up to R50 000-00. Unless it’s a 430W which already has an STC it is not viable to install this unit any more. Due to the 430W being a relatively new unit there are no second hand ones available yet."

 

[Bob - S50]

No, converting the 430 to 430W requires the factory to redo it. I don't know what Garmin does, but it requires their work.

But he isn't converting a 430 to a 430w, he is simply installing a 430 (non-WAAS).  As far as I know, upgrading to the 430w just adds the capability to fly LPV approaches, LNAV/VNAV approaches, and makes it accurate enough to be used for ADS-B.  Without the upgrade I think he can still use it for IFR enroute, ILS, and non-precision RNAV approaches.  I think he just needs to get the testing and paperwork done.

 

Bob

[Cruiser]

to the OP, there is no reason you cannot use the GPS for flight training. As long as you are VFR and doing practice approaches you should be good to go training wise. You will need to have the certifications all worked out before you can use the plane IFR of course.

[cliffy]

A VFR installation of any panel mount GPS can be done as a "minor alteration" log book sign off. When you want to go IFR with it,  it then becomes a big deal paper work wise. You can fly VFR all day long without any of the IFR paperwork issues with a VFR installation, just don't FILE IFR with it as a GPS IFR flight. . 

[ShermAv8tor]

I know this post is over 1.5 yrs old………but what was the outcome on the installation and paperwork/certification dilemma?