Second M20J (rental) flight, oh what a ride!

[inktomi]

Very good points. I'll talk with my CFI about doing full stop landings rather than touch and goes. I think I'm doing well, so as you said full stops won't add much time since I don't think I need a lot more practice. It seems like if I have airspeed where it needs to be, no faster or slower, the landings are non events. Off in either direction was noticeably worse, and my rule now is go around if speed is off at all.  

 

In the POH I read the part about leaning if at high altitude for takeoff/etc, and in other POHs I've read the same thing.. but no one really has ever told me what "high altitude" really means. Around here we're normally around 10,000 to 12,000' for terrain, so "high altitude" for us is around there. 6000+ DA is common every day during the summer here. I've been advised against leaning for takeoff, but I also understand the "lean for best performance" that I think you're talking about.

 

What DA would you start leaning for ground ops / take off? I'd like to help the aircraft owners keep their planes in good working order, so certainly excess buildup in the engine is something I'd like to safely avoid if possible. 

 

I really appreciate the discussion. I'm learning quite a bit

[carusoam]

For your next conversation with your CFI... Consider discussing how much throttle and how to apply it in the go around...(prior to flight)

Initial training of FT applied immediately upon decision, is typical for most (Cessna at least). For your Mooney it may not be the best.

Best regards,

-a-

[RJBrown]

 

 

What DA would you start leaning for ground ops / take off?

 

 

This question is best answered by your engine.

Lean for best performance IS your answer.

If you understand HOW IT WORKS then you can make it do what you want.

It is the difference between teach and train. Teaching involves understanding how things work and why. Training is what dogs and monkeys get.

Someone who was trained can repeat motions. Someone who was taught understands why the motions are needed and what they do.

[KSMooniac]

Go here and read the Target EGT method:  http://www.advancedpilot.com/tech.html

 

It works WAY better than anything written in any POH I've ever read...  You can also use it in reverse on descent and pattern work to be ready for a go-around.

[Jeev]

I'd certainly think that was the case, except that we had been full rich for two touch and gos. If that was the case, shouldn't we have had engine roughness when I first went full rich?

 

The engine behaved exactly like it would if you over leaned it - stalling, rough running. It only full quit once, but it had several other hickups while we were in the air. It ran better at low RPM on the ground taxing to our maintenance hangar. 

 

Glad everything ended up ok.  I fly out of N Las Vegas and during the summers around here with the D/A's around 6,000 I do not go full rich for landing or T&G's.  I put it about where I leaned for the climb (around 1275 EGT) that amounts to the mixture knob on my J out to around the first knuckle on my index finger (when on the runway takeoff roll) depending on OAT but its a good ballpark when doing my pre landing checklist.   If I go around or am on the go I glance at the engine monitor and adjust accordingly as I do throughout a normal climb .  If I was full rich in my J at 5000-6000 DA it would run crappy to.

 

Welcome to flying the MOONEY!!! Are you renting from Monarch?

[gsengle]

I disagree. Getting the trim Down to avoid a nose up condition when full power is applied is something that should trained for. What happens when a deer runs out across the runway and you need to go around and all the flaps are out? Nose up.

The reason to avoid continuous touch and go practice is the higher likelihood of landing gear up.

 

2 things - in my ovation at least, getting retrimmed for the "go" isn't trivial - the flap position, and then a LONG wait for the trim to come in.  Not quick enough to avoid that deer.  If you are already 'touched', I wouldn't 'go' again in an attempt to avoid a deer.  Practicing go-arounds, of course...

 

Second though, is my Ovation the only bird here that has a benign stall?  It stalls straight ahead, not a bad break...

 

g

[inktomi]

Jeev, yes - I'm at Monarch and this was in N5760Y. 

 

I agree that there's a big difference between knowing what works and knowing why it works. I'll read more! 

[inktomi]

I reviewed the Target EGT method after work today. That makes sense! Thanks for providing the powerpoint link. Now.. to find a sea level airport to know what the EGT shortly after takeoff is.. unless there's a better way they don't mention to know what value to use for target EGT should be. 

 

It certainly makes sense that I wouldn't want to be overly rich on takeoff and rob myself of power. On the other hand, a chief CFI scolded me a year or so ago for leaning before takeoff recounting a story of someone at her old field who did that and ended up crashing off the runway (though for the life of me I can't remember the why in that story). I will discuss this with my CFI on my next trip.

 

Go here and read the Target EGT method:  http://www.advancedpilot.com/tech.html

 

It works WAY better than anything written in any POH I've ever read...  You can also use it in reverse on descent and pattern work to be ready for a go-around.

[chrisk]

 I prefer to land in the takeoff configuration when conditions allow. Makes a go around a non event. 10,005' of runway at my home drome makes it easy. I only practice T&G/Stop and go's if I have to for currency. Night currency gets tough during the summer months. Landings have to be between 10pm and 4am to be legal. Kind of a stupid FAR if you ask me.

 My initial checkout in a J (1992 MSE) we used  2500' long by 25' wide runway. He had me fly multiple full stop landings until I was comfortable, this was at a field elevation of 5512'. Air speed control was paramount. If you learn how to land a Mooney PROPERLY from the start you'll be OK. Try to land it like a draggy C or P and you might not like the experience.

 Flying out of Denver my mixture knob is never within an inch of the firewall. My field's elevation is 5880'. With density alt over 6000' you should lean for take off.

I too land in the take off configuration.  It make a go around more predictable.   And I've done touch and goes on a 7000 foot runway with a 650 foot elevation.    It was a non issue.   Of course, if anything is out of normal on the landing, the go part of the touch and go is off.

[Rwsavory]

 

Second though, is my Ovation the only bird here that has a benign stall?  It stalls straight ahead, not a bad break...

 

g

Our C is well behaved In a stall. I make sure the ball remains centered and am very quick with small rudder adjustments if needed.

[DonMuncy]

My K model also stalls straight and predictably.

[bnicolette]

 On the other hand, a chief CFI scolded me a year or so ago for leaning before takeoff recounting a story of someone at her old field who did that and ended up crashing off the runway (though for the life of me I can't remember the why in that story). I will discuss this with my CFI on my next trip.

 

I will caution you that unless your dealing with a very experienced CFI he/she may not be up to speed on proper leaning techniques.  However, at a higher DA airport you would think that they would be?  Just make sure to do your own research on this subject and ask the folks on this board.  Wealth of knowledge here!

[Jeev]

Now.. to find a sea level airport to know what the EGT shortly after takeoff is.. unless there's a better way they don't mention to know what value to use for target EGT should be..

No urgent need to fly to la basin to get sea level and semi normal air temps unless you want an excuse to fly the mooney to the beach:-)

I think using 1275df egt on the richest cylinder (usually #3) will work for your purposes until you get the chance to get to the beach. Others may chime in.

[mcpilot]

I'm with Brett on this one. I had a good friend go up for a bfr a few years back with a 5000 hour cfi and spin and crash during stall practice. This was in an F model and ended sadly with both as fatalities. Familiar pilots in unfamiliar plane

I

[Marauder]

I'm with Brett on this one. I had a good friend go up for a bfr a few years back with a 5000 hour cfi and spin and crash during stall practice. This was in an F model and ended sadly with both as fatalities. Familiar pilots in unfamiliar plane I

I agree as well. Unfamiliarity with the operating characteristics of our planes is not a good thing. My all time favorite was an instructor giving me an IPC in my F model and telling me that I was "slowing up too soon". He insisted I keep the speed up to the FAF, only to be rewarded with me saying that I couldn't extend the gear because I was 20 knots above VLo and that I was 11 knots over VFe. The IPC turned into a lesson where I was teaching him...

[FloridaMan]

Did you do a hot mag check after landing? How'd your EGTs look? Full-rich with only one spark plug functioning might make sense for the scenario you described where leaning brought you back to life. 

 

Also, you should do full-stop and then do your pre-takeoff checklist. Just as you do your GUMPS check on landing, I do "trim, flaps, fuel selector" - "fuel pump, lights transponder and departure frequency" - "prop, mixture, throttle" on takeoff. Even though I use a checklist, these are a quick set of items I follow when turning onto the runway, since sometimes I've been rushed, once I didn't have my mechanical flaps fully "armed," and sometimes I've leaned when having a long delay before taking off. 

[jetdriven]

Go here and read the Target EGT method:  http://www.advancedpilot.com/tech.html

 

It works WAY better than anything written in any POH I've ever read...  You can also use it in reverse on descent and pattern work to be ready for a go-around.

 

The 1977 M20J POH says for climb,  26-26, V_Y and "lean for smooth operation".  That could be disastrous, you might be running at peak EGT with very low cooling airflow.  In my airplane it might not climb at all, it runs smoothly at 100 LOP.

 

Peak EGT is easy to do. One thing I did notice when we departed Sedona on a warm day at 8,000 density altitude, it took V_Y  for climb, and with the cowl flaps locked open the CHT was still approaching 400. In that case, I just richened to 50 degrees lower than target and the engine liked it.  But instead of "I feel" it was based on data.

 

usually at 6000 or 8000 density altitude, I set the mixture 50-80 degrees leaner than target EGT.  Or, more correctly put, set the mixture with the EGT that allows a 330-360 CHT in climb. Above that altitude just climb at 80 ROP or ~1450. Step climbs are easy that way. Bring the mixture forward to 1450, trail the cowl flaps, disengage altitude hold and the airplane will change levels at the trimmed airspeed.

[mike_elliott]

Do you have an engine monitor? If so what was it telling you? A couple of thoughts besides the normal things to check, check that an intake tube hasn't worked loose from a cyl, check the fuel flow to ea cylinder, make sure the big brass nut hasn't worked loose on the fuel servo, and worse case, it could be a needle valve sticking in the servo itself.

[etemplet]

I am a mechanical person and I have been wondering if it would be more safe just to leave the gear down, if one wants to do touch and go's in a complex airplane.  I worry about cycling the gear as a wear item especially with electric gear motors and such.  However, there may be a downside to that as well.  

 

With regard to your experience with the engine... I doubt I'd have done more than plan for an off-airport landing.  At 700'agl.... outside the plane is the place focus your attention.  Hats off you guys solving the problem and getting her down safe.    I guess the question is.... what would you have done if you had been alone or what you would do as a result of that experience if something like that happened again?

[inktomi]

If I was alone I would have landed on the streets that were to our left. Nearly certain that I would have made it no problem. There's also another road further upwind to use if I was a bit further upwind (I've actually seen an aircraft on that road..). I've always read that it's a bad idea to turn back to the airport, the only reason the CFI was confident doing it was that we had enough power to maintain altitude and there was very little wind that morning to make the downwind landing difficult.

 

There wasn't an engine monitor in the aircraft to the best of my memory. In fact, this aircraft crashed in Sedona a couple months ago so I haven't been back in a Mooney since this happened =\

 

I talked with maintenance and the only thing they told me was that they found fouled mags, though I'm not sure how that would have been the "only" issue. If the mags were fouled wouldn't it have ran rough constantly? It got significantly rougher if we tried to get more power from the engine. Given the standard ops at the flight school & club I'm certain it was ran full rich on the ground most of the time.

 

I understand the comments about touch and goes. I'm all for less risk, so I'll be doing full stop landings and taxing back when I'm back in a complex aircraft. 

 

Sorry I didn't get back earlier. Somehow missed the "thread updated" email. Apologies!

[Carl S]

One of the excercises my check out instructor did with me is partial power climbs from take off.  The practice was done in in a flat area but the excercise was t demonstrate that eve with partial power we could climb (slowly) enough to dramatically increase our landing options. I know this is contrarian but the point was that unless total power was lost, heading straight ahead may not be the best option. If there were fire or smoke, getting down fast is paramont - otherwise, there might be options.

[inktomi]

That makes sense. It was my first experience with engine trouble in my few years of flying. I understand why the instructor felt it was OK to turn back - we were able to maintain altitude - no indication of fire - etc.. While I hope I never have to use the skills and knowledge I've gotten there and from talking with you all here, with piston aircraft it seems like given enough time it's likely I'll have some issue at some point. I feel much more prepared now than I would have, even with my private pilot and IFR tickets under my belt.

 

There's a difference between simulated engine trouble and real engine trouble, if only in the stress factor..

 

Now.. to find a Mooney in Las Vegas to get back into with someone and finish my training! 

[ChristianGodin]

You comment make me think that last summer I purchased "Xavion" which give you an easy-to-fly course in case of engine falure. Since a purchase this application I fly the pattern a lot smaller and I am in final a lot higher since I realised that I would never make the runway in case of an engine failure... Xavion worth every penny...