Taking Mooney for a Spin (poll)

[carusoam]

For questions about insurance… we can always defer to Parker…
 

Parker is our insurance guru around here… and has been really open with advice on how to get coverage… and how to lower rates… and affects of time, type, and training…. On those rates…

Parker has also been very helpful for new pilots/owners seeking guidance for their insurance needs…

 

PP thoughts only, not Parker’s mom….

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

6 hours ago, 201er said:

Last I’ve heard from the insurance people, there are fewer carriers than ever before that will insure a pilot in a Mooney at all without an instrument rating. This leaves fewer options, therefore higher prices, therefore “practically” uninsurable these days. It’s the same issue as insuring student pilots or super low time pilots in Mooneys. 

Insurance carriers should be disabling the gear selector switch in Mooney’s if they want to save money.  More seem to land gear up than depart controlled flight with or without an instrument rating.

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, 201er said:

Last I’ve heard from the insurance people, there are fewer carriers than ever before that will insure a pilot in a Mooney at all without an instrument rating. This leaves fewer options, therefore higher prices, therefore “practically” uninsurable these days. It’s the same issue as insuring student pilots or super low time pilots in Mooneys. 

Don’t know who told you that but it would not be a true statement in my experience. There are many VFR pilots on my field flying high perf birds, Mooneys, Comanches 250/260 etc… What is true is that underwriter are backing out of the GA market though likely not due to the risk VFR pilots. The shrinking market may ultimately affect the availability of insurance for low time, non IR airmen.  

[201er]

26 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

What is true is that underwriter are backing out of the GA market though likely not due to the risk VFR pilots. The shrinking market may ultimately affect the availability of insurance for low time, non IR airmen.  

^This

[A64Pilot]

For whatever reason, I think there are several, not just one or two, but insurence for everything is tightening up and becoming harder and more expensive. 

The more you can do to make whatever your insuring a lower risk makes it easier and cheaper to find insurence, houses, boats, airplanes, cars whatever.

Having a no loss history, lots of hours and yes an Instrument ticket and maybe Commercial all help.

I live on a grass runway, and because of that there are only I believe two insurence companies that will insure me, despite my airplane lives in a concrete block hanger and I’m Commercial / Instrument, over 10,000 hours, no claims etc. Most won’t insure a retract on grass, no matter what. Why? I have no idea, only gear ups I’ve ever seen were on paved runways.

[Shadrach]

When you look at the most expensive and catastrophic GA accidents, it’s hard to say that VFR pilots are driving up claims costs. More often than not big claims are driven by highly successful individuals with advanced training who are piloting sophisticated and expensive machinery. That was likely not always the case, but it’s the trend I see in my circle of aviation influence. Every single loss of life and machine was the result of credentialed pilot screwing the pooch in weather or atrophied stick and rudder skills causing low level stall/spin. Sure there are gear up and off airport landings. But the worst of the worst outcomes are pretty much skewed towards folks with advanced ratings and experience, flying missions with advanced levels of risk. For the most part, the 250hr wonders have pretty good stick and rudder skills.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

For whatever reason, I think there are several, not just one or two, but insurence for everything is tightening up and becoming harder and more expensive. 

The more you can do to make whatever your insuring a lower risk makes it easier and cheaper to find insurence, houses, boats, airplanes, cars whatever.

Having a no loss history, lots of hours and yes an Instrument ticket and maybe Commercial all help.

I live on a grass runway, and because of that there are only I believe two insurence companies that will insure me, despite my airplane lives in a concrete block hanger and I’m Commercial / Instrument, over 10,000 hours, no claims etc. Most won’t insure a retract on grass, no matter what. Why? I have no idea, only gear ups I’ve ever seen were on paved runways.

It’s weird. My carrier asks if the aircraft is based at an airport with an asphalt runway but does not impose any restrictions on where I operate. 

[twall001]

Thank you all again, Soo what i am thinking is to get my tail dragger ticket do some areobatic manuvers.........(under strict supervision)  i have some time in a champ and shweitzer glider time with my Grandpa when i was 8.. or 9, block some time in a 72 and scince over all my end choice i think would be an MSE then continue training ..comments?

Tom

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, twall001 said:

Thank you all again, Soo what i am thinking is to get my tail dragger ticket do some areobatic manuvers.........(under strict supervision)  i have some time in a champ and shweitzer glider time with my Grandpa when i was 8.. or 9, block some time in a 72 and scince over all my end choice i think would be an MSE then continue training ..comments?

Tom

Tail dragger experience never hurts. On the the other hand, while my taildragger experience has improved my stick and rudder skills it has also made me comfortable managing energy with maneuvers that would make some pilots uncomfortable.  
 

The truth is, no amount of spin training will make a low altitude spin recoverable and that’s typically where most unintentional spins occur.  That truism is not limited to Mooneys. 

[rbp]

46 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Tail dragger experience never hurts

I'll see your tail dragger experience and raise you  glider experience

[Shadrach]

7 minutes ago, rbp said:

I'll see your tail dragger experience and raise you  glider experience

Agreed. I have very little and what little I do went badly. I took one very short flight in a SGU 22. We broke the safety link just high enough to fly a complete pattern and that was the last flight of the day.

[Skates97]

22 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Kromer basically said you MIGHT recover from a one-turn spin if you start at altitude, but you will need about 2,000 feet.  Near the ground, forget it.  I think at the time he was testing 252s, but I suspect that any medium or long body is the same.

I dug up my notes from the 2019 Mooney Summit where Bob Kromer presented on Spins among other things. He showed some video of the testing that was done and then addressed spin recovery in Mooneys. I was typing away madly on my laptop as he talked. My notes on spin recovery from his presentation are "Recovers per standards but will easily exceed Vne in the near vertical dive that results from the spin so did not pursue certification."

[cliffy]

Getting back to Mooney spins-

I had a conversation with the GURU of Mooney- Bill Wheat  many years ago

In that conversation he said he got into a full spin of many turns (5+) and almost didn't get out

He said HE never wanted to repeat that again    NUF SAID?

Many if not all airplanes can recover from a partial to a one turn spin but when the spin develops into a multi turn edition the recovery for some is problematic.

Those who deliberately do spins in Mooneys are playing with fire

I used to do spins in my Cessna 140 also. In fact my Commercial Check Ride was nothing but spins in it back in the 70s and I was being checked by the retired head of an FAA GADO office. All he wanted to do was spins so that's all we did for 45 minutes 

I have also done the 12 year wing demate  test flight on Lear Jet 20 series airplanes. You go to a full stall and break straight ahead and also banked  Recovery takes a little while

I have flown video chase on the MD87 when they ere doing high altitude full stall flight tests 30K feet  They lost a couple thousand feet on recovery

In my 727 training we had to fly it (albeit in the sim) all the way past the stick shaker to the complete aerodynamic shake of the stall and keep it flying there for 30 seconds. But then again that's when REAL pilots flew big airplanes :-) Not the video game players of today!  :-)

In fact in the 727 we had to fly the real airplane the length of the runway with  gear out and full flaps at Vref no higher than 20 feet above the surface as part of our qualification

Sheilds up!

[Fly Boomer]

50 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I dug up my notes from the 2019 Mooney Summit where Bob Kromer presented on Spins among other things. He showed some video of the testing that was done and then addressed spin recovery in Mooneys. I was typing away madly on my laptop as he talked. My notes on spin recovery from his presentation are "Recovers per standards but will easily exceed Vne in the near vertical dive that results from the spin so did not pursue certification."

He also spoke at (I think) the first MooneyMAX in Longview.  I haven't looked for my notes, but what I took away from his talk was simple:  "Don't go there."

[Fly Boomer]

27 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Many if not all airplanes can recover from a partial to a one turn spin but when the spin develops into a multi turn edition the recovery for some is problematic.

Rich Stowell (the spin guy) also says many airplanes have multiple spin "modes".  Might do a few turns looking fairly conventional, then go flat or point the nose straight down, then flip over on it's back.  I think if it flips over on its back he deploys the tail drogue, or uses the hydrogen peroxide wingtip jets, or just blows the door and gets out.

[M20F]

30 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Many if not all airplanes can recover from a partial to a one turn spin but when the spin develops into a multi turn edition the recovery for some is problematic.

The number of turns are not the issue.  You can spin a Mooney probably just as well as anything.  A spin is an incipient stall with rotation.   You keep the back pressure you can hold that maneuver till you run out of sky no issue.  The issue is that spins lead to spirals.  If you inadvertently stall, spin, you will go to a spiral rapidly in many plans.  If you release back pressure alone in a spin in many planes you will transition to a spiral.   Escaping the maneuver requires getting lift back without ripping the wings off (Vne) in most cases.  As Bob points out exiting the spin no problem, exiting the spiral, larger problem.  
 
Speed does not increase in a spiral it is consistent and will hover at stall speed.  
 
The real point is many planes will not recover a stall.  Thus the focus should be stall awareness and avoidance.  Stalls aren’t sexy though so instead we talk about spin recovery at 400 AGL base to final…..

[DXB]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

It’s weird. My carrier asks if the aircraft is based at an airport with an asphalt runway but does not impose any restrictions on where I operate. 

Yeah I've wondered about this too. They also ask if I ever operate on grass - I am honest and say yes, maybe one to two times a year.  It's usually at Katama or some similar putting green-like runway in dry conditions. I wonder if that answer affects my rate? I suspect I take on more risk dinging the prop from taxiing in the grass at Oshkosh every year.   

[jetdriven]

15 minutes ago, M20F said:

The number of turns are not the issue.  You can spin a Mooney probably just as well as anything.  A spin is an incipient stall with rotation.   You keep the back pressure you can hold that maneuver till you run out of sky no issue.  The issue is that spins lead to spirals.  If you inadvertently stall, spin, you will go to a spiral rapidly in many plans.  If you release back pressure alone in a spin in many planes you will transition to a spiral.   Escaping the maneuver requires getting lift back without ripping the wings off (Vne) in most cases.  As Bob points out exiting the spin no problem, exiting the spiral, larger problem.  
 
Speed does not increase in a spiral it is consistent and will hover at stall speed.  
 
The real point is many planes will not recover a stall.  Thus the focus should be stall awareness and avoidance.  Stalls aren’t sexy though so instead we talk about spin recovery at 400 AGL base to final…..

I think you meant the speed increases in a spiral, and that’s the problem…..the plane is so clean if you don’t get the lift vector pointed up and pull 3 Gs on it you’re gonna go through Vne pretty far. 

[M20F]

3 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I think you meant the speed increases in a spiral, and that’s the problem….

Speed increases in a spiral, correct.  In a spin airspeed is stable.  
 
I find the whole concept though ludicrous.  We don’t practice accidental entry into a barrel roll.  Why should we bother with spins (which again is an aerobatic maneuver).  The simple practice of understanding and avoiding a stall is all one needs. 

[Shadrach]

48 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

He also spoke at (I think) the first MooneyMAX in Longview.  I haven't looked for my notes, but what I took away from his talk was simple:  "Don't go there."

Yeah to be avoided without question. That’s different from unrecoverable, or “you might survive if you’re lucky”.  I don’t like aviation sayings that are designed to terrify people to prevent them from getting into a situation because I think they’re counterproductive  in the rare event someone finds themself in said situation.  I got caught in inadvertent IMC over the Chesapeake bay on a moonless night as a newly minted pilot (~100hrs). I had a good instructor that did a lot of hood work with me during my private. I can still hear him saying “the airplane doesn’t care if it’s IMC, stay calm and follow your instruments”. When everything went black, I froze for a few seconds. I then did what I was trained to do. I elected not to try to turn around because I knew the my not so destination had unlimited ceilings and I was not confident maneuvering. It seemed like an eternity before I popped out but it was probably just a few minutes. Many years later AOPA came out with a scare campaign called “178 seconds to live”. I hated that title then and I still do.  The last thing someone needs in a terrifying situation are sensationalist notions about the survivability of their predicament. People have literally scared themselves to death in airplanes because of being overwhelmed by panic.

[jetdriven]

15 minutes ago, M20F said:

The number of turns are not the issue.  You can spin a Mooney probably just as well as anything.  A spin is an incipient stall with rotation.   You keep the back pressure you can hold that maneuver till you run out of sky no issue.  The issue is that spins lead to spirals.  If you inadvertently stall, spin, you will go to a spiral rapidly in many plans.  If you release back pressure alone in a spin in many planes you will transition to a spiral.   Escaping the maneuver requires getting lift back without ripping the wings off (Vne) in most cases.  As Bob points out exiting the spin no problem, exiting the spiral, larger problem.  
 
Speed does not increase in a spiral it is consistent and will hover at stall speed.  
 
The real point is many planes will not recover a stall.  Thus the focus should be stall awareness and avoidance.  Stalls aren’t sexy though so instead we talk about spin recovery at 400 AGL base to final…..

I think you meant the speed increases in a spiral, and that’s the problem…..the plane is so clean if you don’t get the lift vector pointed up and pull 3 Gs on it you’re gonna go through Vne pretty far. 

[Shadrach]

40 minutes ago, DXB said:

Yeah I've wondered about this too. They also ask if I ever operate on grass - I am honest and say yes, maybe one to two times a year.  It's usually at Katama or some similar putting green-like runway in dry conditions. I wonder if that answer affects my rate? I suspect I take on more risk dinging the prop from taxiing in the grass at Oshkosh every year.   

Yup, I’m way more nervous taxing on grass areas that are being pressed into service as parking than landing on a designated turf runway. The few times I’ve landed at Potomac (VKX) I had to park on grass area that was basically a mowed field for transient over flow. It feels sketchy.  My carrier told me that it does not affect rates as the question centers around where the aircraft is based not where the Aircraft landed occasionally. I guess it’s an exposure thing.

[Pete M]

Dont how to say this without sounding disagreeable but it is all about the number of turns. At 2 or 3 turns the airplane's path becomes more vertical (flat) and thats where mooneys get into trouble. Airflow over the rudder and horizontal stab gets reduced making recovery problematic. At least thats my understanding from bill wheat as printed from a source i no longer remember. 

[cliffy]

31 minutes ago, M20F said:

The number of turns are not the issue.  You can spin a Mooney probably just as well as anything.  A spin is an incipient stall with rotation.   You keep the back pressure you can hold that maneuver till you run out of sky no issue.  The issue is that spins lead to spirals.  If you inadvertently stall, spin, you will go to a spiral rapidly in many plans.  If you release back pressure alone in a spin in many planes you will transition to a spiral.   Escaping the maneuver requires getting lift back without ripping the wings off (Vne) in most cases.  As Bob points out exiting the spin no problem, exiting the spiral, larger problem.  
 

Each airframe has its own particularities in a stall situation

The number of turns IS the issue in some airframes, probably also Mooneys as per Bill Wheat.  Some airframes go into flat spins after a turn or two and then recovery is very problematic.

Spins do not of themselves lead to spirals They are independent of each other. 

Spins are a stalled condition of the wings, spirals the wing is still flying below the stall AoA

 

38 minutes ago, M20F said:

Speed does not increase in a spiral it is consistent and will hover at stall speed.  

Speed does not increase in a spin             Speed increases in a spiral

 

40 minutes ago, M20F said:

The real point is many planes will not recover a stall.  

Wrong   Every airplane will (by regulation) recover from a stall.  From 747s down to J3 Cubs. 

Many however may not recover from a fully developed spin    Hence the requirement NOT TO SPIN them. 

Spirals on the other hand have the wing AoA lower than the stall AoA thus "flying" and not stalled  BUT in a position where by speed increases rapidly and the normal intent is to lower the speed by pulling back on the control wheel thereby increasing the load factor to way above load limit and tearing the wings off the airplane. Just look to many many Bonanza incidents from the same scenario. 

My mentor from 60 years ago said quite calmly as I was into a well developed spiral under the hood in a Cessna 140- 

"Roll the wings level THEN put the nose on the horizon"   That's the only way to recover from an uncontrolled  spiral

If its a spin one or both wings are stalled     If its a spiral both wings are flying.

 

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Dont how to say this without sounding disagreeable but it is all about the number of turns. At 2 or 3 turns the airplane's path becomes more vertical (flat) and thats where mooneys get into trouble. Airflow over the rudder and horizontal stab gets reduced making recovery problematic. At least thats my understanding from bill wheat as printed from a source i no longer remember. 

Likely true. Don Kaye said the K model they spun began porpoising in the spin. Two complete turns and 1000 feet lost before recovery.