N1026F Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 This was preventable. It was a beautiful landing except that last part...then it got expensive. Where: San Antonio, Texas (KSAT). Runway 31L (The 8000 ft. one...) When: Saturday February 23, 2013, 11:15 a.m. What: Pilot Induced Gear Collapse. (beyond embarrassing) How: This is the interesting part and why I felt I should share the details of this event. The winds were calm so I decided that I would use full flaps. With 630 hours of flight time, 602 being in Mooneys flown on the coast of Texas, I have the partial flap landing pretty much figured out. (I seldom, if ever use runways less than 3000 ft.) Nonetheless, I developed the practice of moving the flaps on roll out to place more weight on the wheels and reduce float. On this unfortunate day, due to the perceived excessive float, as soon as I felt the tires touch the runway, I reached over to pull the flaps up...only..I didn't hit the flap switch...I pulled the gear switch out sufficient to unlock the gear, then apparently let it go---but too late. The 2004 Ovation2 set its belly on the runway gently and slid a couple hundred feet in a long arc to the right edge of 31L. The 3 blade scimitar prop came to a stop with one curled blade sticking straight up. I heard tower calmly request the aircraft holding short at 31L to turn 180 degrees, taxi via Alpha to Runway 4 and hold short. The plane came to rest pointing directly at the emergency response vehicles garage so when I saw the big green emergency vehicles coming at us, I snapped out of my 'oh crap' mode, turned to my wife and told her we needed to exit the plane so that they's know we we alright. Now, Iv'e told my daughter, as she has grown up, that the best thing to bring to a bad situation is a good attitude. I saw nothing but the best from KSAT airport operations from the moment they showed up to the point where we moved to plane to Cutter Aviation via a helicopter dolly and a large crane. The FAA investigator (FSDO), Mr. Richard Tarwater was the picture of thoroughness, courtesy and professionalism as I chewed up the lion's share of his afternoon.(He did his due diligence, as required, by checking all required pilot and plane certifications.) Because the gear was in the down position when the plane came to rest, I really wasn't sure that I had hit it or the flap switch. When Mr. Tarwater and I went back out to the plane (there was a 1.5 hr wait for the crane) to get some certification documentation, I noticed that the flap switch was still in the full down position and pointed that out to him. He noted that the gear breaker switch was out, even though the gear lever was down. Keeping an open mind, he said, "well, the FAA mechanics will sort it out." Nice guy, but I pretty much had it figured out: I pulled the gear switch out, but not up, at the point where the tires were barely touching (still in the full-flap float) but there was still enough airspeed going into the pito tube and insufficient weight on the mains to trigger these gear safety interlocks. In other words, there was a very narrow window of opportunity to screw things up, but I managed to do it with perfect timing. Hard lesson: I've seen other Mooney drivers comment on this site that taking flaps up reduces float and increases control. Unless your Johnson-bar equipped, I offer my unsolicited advice: don't touch any thing but power and radios until you come to a stop. Make landing practice to a full stop (rather than touch and go's). For reasons that even neuroscientists probably don't fully understand, my take-off sequence of gear-up-flaps-up crossed into my landing sequence. Maybe it won't happen to you. Maybe you can make a very strong argument that I made a boneheaded mistake and you won't, even with your similar practices. And you may be right to all of the above. I offer this only to those who can appreciate that my mistake caused serious property damage and it was entirely preventable. Phoenix Insurance and Dugosh will take it from here. ...now I've got to make some phone calls to engine rebuilders. Any suggestions? Quote
Ksaunders Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 Really glad nobody was hurt. Great advice for us all and many things for us to consider ourselves as we review our post landing practices. Thanks again for sharing so others may operate more safely. Sorry to hear about your bird. Quote
bd32322 Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 Sorry to hear about that. I have a similar habit, but i think its time to quit! Quote
Joe Zuffoletto Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 Ouch. So sad to hear about your unfortunate accident. I did the same thing once in my old Encore. I was a bit luckier, though... the squat switch had engaged and the gear didn't retract. Put the gear switch in the "down" position immediately and breathed a huge sigh of relief. Quote
Jeff_S Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 I need to see an Ovation panel. In a J, there is absolutely no way to confuse the flap and gear switches, they are in such different places. I'd always heard your advice applying to other aircraft, notably the Bonanza where I believe the two switches are so close. Anyway, thanks for sharing your mishap with the crowd. Humility can sometimes be painful but is always good medicine. Quote
Hank Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 That is a great writeup for a truly saddening event. The evident humility and lack of anger are both amazing. Thank you for sharing with such clarity. I sometimes raise flaps during roll-out, very consciously, and do it with my hand still holding the throttle at idle. Your story will make me much more cautious. No-wind landings are very rare at home, and I often float somewhat due to inability to practice no-wind landings; even a 5-knot headwind makes a difference at my 3001' home field. I think this is common, or else I only know pilots at the low end of the skill level. Quote
rbridges Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 I need to see an Ovation panel. In a J, there is absolutely no way to confuse the flap and gear switches, they are in such different places. I'd always heard your advice applying to other aircraft, notably the Bonanza where I believe the two switches are so close. Anyway, thanks for sharing your mishap with the crowd. Humility can sometimes be painful but is always good medicine. My CFII said the same thing about Bonanzas. Even though I have a Johnson bar, he told me to wait until leaving the runway to clean up. at least the OP has an Ovation and doesn't have to worry about it being totaled. Quote
N1026F Posted February 28, 2013 Author Report Posted February 28, 2013 The gear and flap switches are about a two feet apart on the Ovation2. There's difference between cognitive confusion and whatever caused me to use take off clean up procedure and landing clean up procedure. My habit will change to remove runway clean up upon touchdown, because the fact is, that I will do anything to avoid this from ever happening again short of giving up flying itself or going to...(gasp!)...fixed gear. Quote
gregwatts Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 Your ability to take ownership of this and share it with others is commendable! This topic has come up before and if it makes you feel any better......there are a bunch of pilots that do the same thing and all justify it to themselves. You are not the first and you certainly won't be the last. The good thing is....you didn't get injured or injure anyone else. Good luck with putting things back together and ........keep sharing your story! It may prevent someone else from having this happen. Quote
Joe Zuffoletto Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 I need to see an Ovation panel. In a J, there is absolutely no way to confuse the flap and gear switches, they are in such different places. I'd always heard your advice applying to other aircraft, notably the Bonanza where I believe the two switches are so close. Anyway, thanks for sharing your mishap with the crowd. Humility can sometimes be painful but is always good medicine. In my old Encore's panel, the gear and flap switches were nowhere near each other, but I still flipped the wrong one. As the original poster said, it's a brain fart! Quote
skeptic Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 Most airline SOPs prohibit any conifguration changes until clear of the runway. You are not the first to make this error, and you will not be the last. For those of you with speedbrakes......are they effective enough at low speed to "settle" the airplane after touchdown? Quote
1964-M20E Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 Hope you get your plane fiexed quickly. Glad to hear noone hurt. Learn and move on we all make mistakes. :-) Quote
ChrisH Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 I've landed with speedbrakes (intentionally and not) they are I don't notice much impact at landing speeds. But, my hands are usually glued to the yoke/throttle on landing so I haven't haven't experimented with speed brakes as a landing aid. Quote
mooniac58 Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 Thank you for sharing this! Luckily my CFI was a stickler about not touching anything during the short final to landing portion of the flight - I would have had a red hand if I ever tried to touch anything at this point (I supposed the gear would be ok if you forgot it earlier!) I also had never heard about retracting the flaps in the roll out or what the advantage was. Best of luck getting your ship back in the air! Quote
Bennett Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 Thank you for posting your experience - forthright, honest, and commendable that you are helping others avoid the same situation. A couple of us on this forum fly out of San Carlos's 2600', relatively narrow, airstrip, and I am always tempted to bring up the flaps during roll-out to load the gear, and shorten the landing. I don't do it, not because I might inadvertently touch the gear switch (which I regard as the rattlesnake that it can be), but because I don't want to change anything until I am off the runway. Old habit drilled into me by old, crusty, instructors over the many years I have been flying. I believe the key to managing risk on shorter air strips is to absolutely nail the touchdown airspeed. Even in no wind situations (rare at San Carlos), the E and Js based here seldom use more than half the runway, with the E doing better than I can in my J. (K.... is simply a better pilot than I am). Rather than bringing up the flaps, I open the speed brakes on short final with the engine at idle, and when necessary to add drag (in my opinion), I open the cowl flaps fully. I need all the drag I can muster. Here come the comments: The speed brakes are the electrical type, as opposed to the earlier vacuum driven ones, and they snap in an out in less than two seconds, and I can climb out for a go around with them deployed until I can take the time (yoke switch) to close them. I have even flown the airplane without problems when the speed brakes were deployed asymmetrically (in descending through ice on an instrument approach with one stuck open - not that I wanted to be there in that condition). They are not very effective at the the Mooney's low landing speed, but they do help destroy lift, and add a bit of drag. I don't need them, but they are a great tool, and my motto is to use all available tools, especially the best tools, to accomplish whatever task is at hand. Some pilots will say they don't need them, as, in their opinion, they are a crutch and more power to these superior folk. Its not a matter of need, but usefulness, and above all, knowing yourself, and your airplane. After more than 20 years of flying Mooneys, I am still learning the best way to land in a given circumstance, because no two situations are ever identical, but I do feel that I have had sufficient experience to anticipate the effects of wind, temperature, and density altitude to reach an airspeed just above the runway that will be safe. We all have our own basic techniques (within a range), and mine may not be absolutely conventional, but I know they work for me. I check the gear down lights - floor and annunciator, at least 4 times in the pattern, and again just before landing. Overkill? Sure, but easy to do, and to make it a habit. I won't touch the gear switch again until the next takeoff. I'm even afraid to clean off the grunge on the switch "wheel" while it is in the hangar . Irrational, of course, but that's is the way I want to treat a gear switch. The previous owner of my J, an instructor pilot who flew the airplane daily as his commuter, managed to "simply forget" to lower the gear before landing. Makes me think about that every time I fly this particular airplane. Your posting helps reinforce my determination to keep my hands off switches, flaps, in short, everything, until I clear the runway. Again, thank you for your post. Quote
bd32322 Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 I am now wondering if cognitively the problem can be solved by reversing the direction of the flaps up switch. You have to pull a switch down on order to raise flaps. Then when someone wants to raise the flaps they will always pull something down instead of raising something up. This sounds confusing, so a better way will be to make the flaps up switch a separate push button switch Quote
Cruiser Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 Two things that I have become painfully aware of recently........ 1. "It won't happen to me" I have read these messages and smugly thought I was better than that, that I would never make those kind of mistakes. WRONG! Don't think for a minute that you are exempt. IT can happen to ANYONE of us. Stay mentally sharp at all times in the pilot seat. 2. When it happens, It happens fast. Sure there is a chain of events that lead up to the mistake, but once that mistake is made it is over in a matter of seconds. Reaction time, awareness and decisions cannot be made in the final phase of an accident. It is all over just to quickly to correct. You have to stop the chain to avoid the accident. It is virtually impossible to recover. In my case I have calculated the time from the first onset of "this is a problem" to the time the plane stopped at about 17 seconds. Luckily it only cost me a plane. 1 Quote
Rwsavory Posted February 28, 2013 Report Posted February 28, 2013 No disrespect to anyone, but I reserve the right to select flaps up on touch down. It's a useful practice when used with caution. Quote
carusoam Posted March 1, 2013 Report Posted March 1, 2013 The brain does many wondrous things... (1) But it has the ability to be "distracted". More, as we are busy, multi-tasking, or get tired. The gear switch is in a nice visible location in the shape of a giant wheel and will not be confused as being the flaps switch. Even if it were operated in reverse direction. (2) The gear switch gets used inappropriately by the brain being distracted. The brain gets a few chances to get it right or correct the mistake in time. This is called "self monitoring". Unfortunately self monitoring gets pushed to the back of the priority list while we are multi-tasking. As Cruiser pointed out, there isn't much time for self monitoring to avoid or fix things in this situation. (3) My third favorite tool is called "verbal mediation". The tool we use when we are flying with our CFI. Saying out loud, what we are about to do, before doing it. This gives the brain another chance to self monitor an action before it becomes an action. I have the opportunity to work with neuroscientists, brain injury patients, tired people and pilots. It's my newest job. The one tool they all use to avoid this situation is the checklist (written or memorized). Our lists just got improved to always include what not to touch, and to recognize when the self monitoring function has been tossed into the back seat. I'm glad the O.P. shared this situation. "Distraction" is what the neuroscientist called it. He has a pHD and a least a decade of experience. But "Brain Fart" may help the rest us rember it better! It's the science of using a checklist. it's not a weakness. Remind the teens to put the phone down while driving.... it's the same theory. The brain is a wonderful tool, but it has it's limitations. Thanks 1026F! Good luck getting your Mooney back on it's feet. Best regards, -a- Quote
M016576 Posted March 1, 2013 Report Posted March 1, 2013 Everyone has their own techniques- I'll offer mine. I don't change my configuration on the runway during roll out or in ground effect. I've seen too many mishaps as a result of pilots changing their configuration in close or on roll out. It's tempting from time to time. I find that if I'm tempted, then it's because I've already screwed something up and should probably have gone around. If I have speed brakes on my aircraft, I deploy them once the mains are settled on the ground (and no sooner) for extra drag. I wouldn't buy them for my mooney, but as Bennett mentioned: smoke 'um if you've got 'um. Go arounds are Free. Use those to overcome a bad approach or technique. It's cheaper than the alternative. Stay safe, sorry to hear about this, particularly with such a new and expensive mooney as it could have been avoided. Hopefully other pilots will learn from this though, thanks for sharing, it's not easy but we're all better for it! Quote
aaronk25 Posted March 1, 2013 Report Posted March 1, 2013 I need to see an Ovation panel. In a J, there is absolutely no way to confuse the flap and gear switches, they are in such different places. I'd Oh ya I was the other guy that did the exact same thing last year. And I fly 300 hours a year. Complacency got me. Was bored looking out the window at something shinny in grass. Lifted the wheels up after touch down. Watch out the brain can confuse 2 similar movements of your not paying attention. Sorry to here about that. You will be a better pilot from this and if anyone gives you any crap about it screw them. One other piece of advice, forgive yourself now and don't beat yourself up over this. Move on. I lost 2 weeks of my life kicking my own butt that ill never get back. Pm me or give me a call at 507-261-0274 if your want some advise about the process that will come, there is things I'd do different if I had someone to offer me some advise about all the options avail. Sorry to hear about this......cheer up my friend. Aaron Quote
aviatoreb Posted March 1, 2013 Report Posted March 1, 2013 This is the main reason to stay connected with your type specific forum and that I make it a point to read here on mooneyspace. It is that we collectively teach each other to be better pilots by sharing our experiences. We learn not just from our own experiences but our collective experiences if we are careful to listen. COPA did an interesting self study a number of years ago, that COPA member Cirrus pilots were 4 times less likely to have a serious incident than non COPA member Cirrus pilots. Thank you N1026F for helping us all to strive to be just a little better informed pilots, and thank you all. Erik Quote
fantom Posted March 1, 2013 Report Posted March 1, 2013 Courageous, introspective write up and a fine discussion. Now you guys have me rethinking my ten year SOP of retracting my flaps after touch down. With advancing years it may be difficult to change and remember NOT to pull them up, possibly causing a brain fart on something else. BTW, Bennett was correct about the impact of speedbrakes close in. Quote
aviatoreb Posted March 1, 2013 Report Posted March 1, 2013 No one has yet mentioned - especially on contaminated/ice runways, I have been enjoying the extra load on the tires to help slowing the airplane as soon as possible following touch down. Even the rolling resistance on the rubber tires is higher when they are weighted more highly so you slow to a stop sooner without breaks. I am rethinking if/how to retract flaps upon touchdown. I am thinking the idea that someone stated, vocalize first and confirm before you touch might greatly diminish the possibility of grabbing the wrong knob. Still thinking about if to continue though with the whole procedure which I have always been doing. Quote
aaronk25 Posted March 1, 2013 Report Posted March 1, 2013 There is no reason to need to lift flaps on roll out....its a waste. After my incident I spend some time really learning how to do short field langings. It is much better to approach 5kts slower over the end of the runway than to do some quick cockpit gymnastics and get the flaps up. Come in a bit slower over the numbers (don't drag it all the way down final slow, just slow up before the numbers) keep attention to the throttle and get it set up so you can have a slight nose up attitude and whatever speed that is maintain it to the ground. If it starts to sink, you will feel it and add just a touch of power, just a bit. If you do it right it will be done flying when you get it on the ground. I have a feeling people who are lifting flaps up on roll out (and it was me last year) are doing it for 2 reasons. LANDING TO FAST or are busy business people and there is about 10 secs where there isn't much to do and they feel as if they have to do something, so "lets start cleaning up the airplane on roll out". I've landed in 1700 foot grass strips with trees on one end and had room to spare, but you have to hit your speeds right. Remember the prop is your friend and at any time you can put a little more wind under the roots of the wings if you need to, but you must pay attention, air speed decays quickly if your behind the ball. Way better in my opinion than retracting the flas up on roll out. The commercial guys don't do this for a reason. Aaron Quote
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