Gear up landing

[ChristianGodin]

I am flying a 201. I have never flown any other type of Mooney. When I am in downwind I slow down to 130 knots approx. and then put the grear down. If I don't put the gear down, the airplane does not slow down unless I would reduce the trottle excessivly. How come this does not wake up every one that forget to put the gear down? I am asking because I want to know what could happen to me that I don't realised! Also does any other type of Mooney react differently, I mean slow down easily even if gears aren't down so that one could more easily forget the gears?

[co2bruce]

When I first transitioned into the Mooney my instructor told me to fly by the numbers. If your on downwind at 14" mp and your speed is not what it should be, your plane is not configured right. On final and your speed is still 90 kts or more, you better check Something! GUMPSAC. I do one before entering the pattern, one after turning base, and one on final. All that said sometimes distractions come up and it's easy to forget to fly the plane. I was practicing an instrument approach with my instructor when my master warning light started flashing, I was all over that light and its cause........... But I let the approach get away badly. Things happen, use your checklists, mental and written and you will not have a gear up.

[ChristianGodin]

If you want to slow down to 90 knots you got to get the gear down otherwise you have to reduce excessivly the trottle or you start reducing the speed well in advance before entering the patern. Actally, I reduce the speed to 130 knots just before entering the patern and then I need to get the gear down to slow down to 90 knots before turning base! This make me think at GUMP every time.

[N201MKTurbo]

I agree completely. Getting the Mooney to slow down is a challenge and having the gear up makes a big difference.

I think the problem is people who are new to Mooneys or don't fly often enough to develop a routine and realize something is wrong when the plane won't slow down.

[Scott Aviation]

http://romenews-tribune.com/pages/full_story/push?article-Plane+fails+to+put+down+landing+gear-+no+one+injured%20&id=21208096

 

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s2876553.shtml

 

http://kathrynaviationnews.com/?p=126763

 

all in the last 2 weeks.....perhaps, their heads were somewhere else for atleast 2 of them. 1 sounds mechanical

[1964-M20E]

That is my biggest fear is to forget to put the gear down. Like others have mentioned I do several GUMPs checks but I have been in situations where you get distracted with any number of other things. One time I was about 50 to 100 feet off the deck and wondered if I had put the gear down I did several gear checks right then to make sure I did and make sure that I did not mistakenly retract the gear. I had put the gear down earlier as I turned final but could not remember doing it. There was a line of severe precipitation moving in form the north and I was thinking about getting on the ground and to the FBO before it hit. The other thing is to forget the gear down while doing a go around and then retracting it thinking you are extending the gear.

[Alan Fox]

Dont even approach this subject with this attitude.... Take it from someone who did it...... There are modes of flight , where you are already slow enough to enter the trafffic pattern with the gear up ... How about an approach???? Once it is slowed down to about 90 knots the handling is not that different gear up/down.....    I was doing a go around , got rattled , put the gear up , fell from the checklist , didnt put it down...  didnt realize it was up until the prop hit the pavement..... went around and landed with a bent prop.....That was about 7 years ago and a very humbling experience......There are alot of pilots with a lot more experience than me or probably most of you that have done the same.... It happens....   There are those that have... And those that will.......... 

[aaronk25]

50ft check over runway. Gear down out loud and airspeed ok! Every time.

[aaronk25]

I lifted my gear up at wheel touch down. Thought I was retracting the flaps. And if you think how could someone don that? Well, not paying attention being complacent, maybe fatigued, 5th landing that day but above all don't touch anything until off runway.

Mistakes happen so fast. What gets even the best pilots is taking there focus off of things they have done thousands of times. Not this pilot, not anymore, changed forever. It's serious business until the prop stops.

[Marauder]

I am flying a 201. I have never flown any other type of Mooney. When I am in downwind I slow down to 130 knots approx. and then put the grear down. If I don't put the gear down, the airplane does not slow down unless I would reduce the trottle excessivly. How come this does not wake up every one that forget to put the gear down? I am asking because I want to know what could happen to me that I don't realised! Also does any other type of Mooney react differently, I mean slow down easily even if gears aren't down so that one could more easily forget the gears?

Not all Mooneys have the luxury of dropping the gear at 130 knots. In many of the older Mooneys the gear VLe and VLo is much lower (104 k in my plane). I can't just drop the gear at the speeds you are talking about. As was mentioned later in the thread, it is all about power management. Set the power correctly, configure the plane accordingly, run the pre-landing checklist and then confirm. When I am in a standard pattern, I slow enough to get the first notch of flaps in. Enter downwind at 100 knots, drop gear at mid field and reduce power to 14" MP. This slows me to 90 knots. I trim for hands off at 90. I run the BUMPS list (Boost, Undercarriage, Mixture, Prop and Seatbelts). Turning base I drop to 13" MP, slow to 80 knots, trim for hands off, check and call out "Gear Down". On final, I drop in the last notch of flaps once the field is made and slow to 70 knots. Final gear call out. I think the reason some guys land gear up is they are flying by speed, not power settings. If you don't pay attention to the power, you can certainly get the plane to slow down to landing speeds at a lower MP with flaps alone. Throw in a winds or a distraction, I think it is easy to forget the gear.

[jetdriven]

A lot of Bonanza guys have a rule to never put flaps in before the gear comes down. The extra drag of the flaps can mask the fact the gear is not down. I dont use it as a hard rule, but its good practice.  One instance it doesnt work well is an instrument approach. I dont like configuring the airplane on the glideslope, so I put in flaps at glideslope alive.

[FloridaMan]

I was in the flare coming in to ABQ at night after flying all day from Tampa. I had crossed the mountains at 11,000ft and was not prepared for such a rapid descent. I was given a different runway than I had planned for and did a 270 degree turn to enter final. I had a quartering tailwind and high ground speed due to the higher DA. I remember crossing the numbers fast and trying to get the power pulled back. Throttle was already back to idle, but because of my higher ground speed than I was used to, I was continuing to dick around with the throttle. As I was in the flare, I thought, "oh shit, my gear." Usually I cross final with my fingernail in the gear handle gap and then put my hand back on the throttle. Fortunately the first thing I did before my rapid descent was drop my gear, but I missed it on the checklist. It was a sobering experience. The item that I had forgotten was I had left my ram air open. 

[yvesg]

I am wondering if we have as much gear up with airplanes having the Johnson bar? The gear down procedure with this is more significant than pulling down the electrical gear lever and not doing it might be a bigger sidetrack event: We always expect to apply significant force on something when configuring for landing.

 

Yves

C-FQKM

[aerobat95]

There are those that have and those that will.....very easy to get distracted and get you out of your routine.  We had a very experienced IP with a very bad student almost gear up a T-6.....they were saved by the tower.  It can happen to even the best of us.  I would say if anything gets you out of your routine then go back and double check.  If you do use a checklist which everyone should don't pay lip service to it.  Remember if you are involved in a gear up the NTSB will say one of the causal factors was pilot did not adhear to proper checklist.  Be careful out there guys.....its beautiful out here in OK and I am looking for some tailwinds :-)

[BigTex]

Outside of a mechanical failure, can't NTSB always say that the checklist wasn't followed on a gear up?

[Cruiser]

last check over the fence when i know the runway is made.......... check the gear.

This way any distraction or change to the normal procedure will be caught and you will have a chance to get them down.

[kgbpost]

Could happen to anyone. The over the fence check should never be ommited. I too would think 'how would you not notice the gears not down, it won't land without it down', but I found myself in just a situation that it could've happened a few months ago...

 

Descending into DVT (deer valley phoenix) approach held me up high for traffic and then dumped me and handed me off to tower in the same radio call. I knew i was gonna be way high so I slowed to 140, extended the gear, and about that time is when approach dumped me and handed me off. The pattern was full and when I finally got thru to tower he cleared me directly to a visual check point over a dam, for a right base for 25L (25R closed). Upon reaching the check point tower instructed me to level at 2600, turn right to fly overhead 25R expect a right 270 over the departure end to enter a left downwind for 25L (airplanes everywhere and my active traffic system squacking away). Somewhere during this time I noticed my CHTs climbing due to high OATs (90F), and around 25" MP to maintain altitude with the gear down (had already opened cowl flaps in anticipation of this but it wasnt enough) so I retracted the gear. About that time tower wedged me into downwind between a 172 and a citabria. He turned me on base to follow the 172 about 3 miles out at 2600', winds 280 @ 20, moderate turbulence, and cleared me to land. At about 1 mi out with partial flaps in and 15" MP I was following the VASI nicely. What now...oh yea, GUMPS...I had already done it once on right base for 25L, but have since retracted the gear...gotcha! Time to do it again (nonstandard) Gear Down? Nope...OOOPS, Now it is...Over the fence...GEAR DOWN, yes, sigh. Uneventful landing.

 

Anyway, I found myself in the scenario that I didn't think existed (pattern full and then some, unfamiliar airport with unfamiliar procedures, strong headwinds on final, moderated turbulence, constant radio chatter...mostly from foriegn pilot trainees I couldn't understand). Everything was happening real fast. That's as close as I Hope I ever get to committing the ultimate sin. I have 6,000 hours In retractable gear airplanes. It can happen to anyone.

[carusoam]

Get used to fighting distractions... They get worse with age, but they start just after you are born. Nobody is ammune, some have them less.

I have spent a year training how the memory works and sometimes doesn't, it happens to everyone.

It only takes once to make an expensive mistake.

Denial or poor attitude towards distractions will generate a mistake that typically follows distraction.

Detecting distractions is a way to avoid mistakes. Following the checklist every time is THE way to detect distractions.

Having excess cash is a way to make up for the mistake. It's better to stop them before you have them.

So, substituting an obvious sign like high air speed as an indication of gear being up is not as good as seeing green gear lights on.

Or maybe most Mooney pilots are just super human....

I learned how important the checklist is early on in my Mooney days... I forgot to retract them on a short flight.

If you can forget putting them up briefly, you can forget putting them down as well.

Distraction, really isn't forgetting, it's the trigger that something has been done when in fact it was not.

Done recently often masquerades as done more recently. 15 minutes ago vs. five minutes ago...

This is a common occurrence of multiple T/Os in a short period of time.

Things that add to distraction, stress and precursors of stress...tired, hungry, time limits, weather limits, people, ATC, rules, fuel, etc.

Makes you look forward to doing the next check list...

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

I have the same question, but I believe the answer is full flaps.  It would be possible, if you get distracted during an approach and do get full flaps down, to slow to 90 without excessive throttle reduction.  Atr least in my aircraft (231) that would be possible.  You should still notice at some point that the speeds are uncharacteristic for your given throttle setting, but the difference would be less exaggerated than trying to slow down clean and with the gear up. 

 

The other issue is that throttle settings are not a constant to produce a given speed.  They vary a little depending on OAT.  Here in Minn., the difference between an approach setting in winter and one in summer can be a couple of inches, because of the improved performance of the aircraft in cold temps. 

 

Not sayin you shouldn't catch these things, if you are familiar with the plane you will know.

[DaV8or]

I posted this on another forum, so I'll repost it here. On the other forum, someone had posted the same "How in the world can you possibly gear up a Mooney?" question. They said there was now way they could get down to landing speed without the gear down. My reply-

 

 

Sure you can. Pull the power to idle and pitch the nose up. It won't feel like a normal landing sequence at all, but I don't think gear ups happen in normal situations. They happen when everything about the approach to landing is going wrong, or abnormal.

Things like heavy traffic in the pattern, unusual controller requests, horrible turbulence, or winds, a passenger situation, or a problem with the engine can cause your brain to just accept the unusually long time it's taking to slow down as part of the screwed up approach and you try to fix it. Pull power, pitch up, put in more flaps, maybe use the speed brakes if you have them. You see, in your confused mind, the gear is down and eventually, the plane starts to behave normally and hits the correct airspeed.

I've never done a gear up, so I can't tell you blow by blow how it happens, but I don't presume myself to be superior and think it could never happen to me. I do know that once a CFI tested me on a check out of a complex airplane and distracted me in the pattern on downwind on purpose. Sure enough, I forgot the gear and went to the flaps. The plane was already slow from being in the pattern. Somewhere on base, the gear horn went off. I didn't ignore it, I misinterpreted it. It added to the stress and I thought it was the stall horn because you see, in my mind, the gear was down.

So I immediately pitched down with no avail and checked airspeed and it was now reading on the high side. I was still committed to landing, so I turned base to final and got the airspeed under control. My brain was struggling to catch up and I think I would have gotten there before crunch time, but my instructor had enough and just pointed at the gear handle. Lesson learned.

I really don't think I'm perfect, or the ace of the base, so in my personal plane, I installed a Bitching Betty to play the role of the CFI pointing at the gear handle. Hundreds of hours since that checkout and I've never heard the Bitching Betty except during a test to make sure it really works.

Maybe it's kind of like writing something down to remember it. The mere act of writing it down is enough to ingrain it in your memory. Maybe doing a nearly gear up with a CFI and then later testing your Bitching Betty is enough to get you to always remind you.

to all, this is not mostly a Mooney problem, or more prevalent in Mooney drivers. It happens in all types. If it were a Mooney problem, our insurance rates would be much higher than others and in fact, we come out on the low end of the insurance rate scale for complex planes.

[DaV8or]

Outside of a mechanical failure, can't NTSB always say that the checklist wasn't followed on a gear up?

 

The NTSB doesn't investigate gear ups unless somebody gets hurt, or serious damage is done. Most gear ups are off the Feds books with no reliable data on them. Kind of like engine failures.

[dcrogers11]

I was trying to remember, but I beleive my 64 C's warning buzzer came on when below a certain airspeed w/o gear down.  I was doing touch and go's during my BFR with my CFII and did not have my Johnson Bar latched completely.  When turning to base, it came on and it took us a second to discover that I still had a red light on my gear up indicator.  A quick nudge to the bar and the light and buzzer went off.  My CFII and I looked at each other and said "Nice Horn" as it probably saved the gear from retracting at touch down.  Would you not get the same warning on gear up situations if all is working correctly? 

[OR75]

on a J, if you are at idle and the gear is not down, the buzzer will be loud and will get your attention.

it is an airworthiness item.

[kgbpost]

Also as i recall in my example, the other gotcha was the fact that i was being asked to follow a much slower aircraft in the pattern and found myself in a very high nose up attitude which made it very difficult to see the aircraft I was supposed to follow over the long nose of my M. Which is why i went for the flaps to lower my pitch attitude. It worked very well in fact, but as I turned final with the flaps out (between 10 and 20 degrees i'm guessing) and a 20+ knot headwind it masked the fact that I hadn't re-lowered my gear yet. I did redo my checklist, and double checked again over the fence, and all ended well...but it made me think. To patently say that one should never use any flaps until the gear is down in my opinion doesn't always work. There are instances when the use of "approach flaps" without the gear being down is entirely appropriate...In My Opinion. 

[Comatose]

I almost did it during my transition training. At that point I had maybe 5 Mooney hours. Was just doing pattern work, short field takeoff, left the gear down on takeoff to see how it handled that way. Of course, when it came time to drop the gear, I swung the big ol handle... retracting it again. The gear warning horn saved me and my (mooney owner, CFII) transition instructor a lot of embarrassment. So yeah, saying "how could that happen, its so hard to slow down" is a little cavalier. If you never get up to 130 knots, or in my case 120mph its not hard to get back down to it...