Rajay vs. M-20 turbo

[Blunoser16]

Can anybody tell me about rajay or m-20 turbos. I am trying to decide between buying an M20F and adding a M-20 turbo or buying one already having a Rajay turbo. Is there any difference? Thanks

[Seth]

I can't tell you the difference, but I can tell you it is usually less expensive to purchase an airplane with the desired equipment already installed.

That being said, if the RayJay system isn't working properly, or has issues, it will be expensive to repair as unless they are really working well they seem to always have issues. Those who never have an issue with thier RayJay will disagree, but those are those that are really working well (and thus don't have issues).

I would go find a good F with the RayJay if I really needed Turbo. If turbo was a must, find a K (231). Larger pool to purchase from and easier to sell when the time comes. However, they cost more.

-Seth

[Mcstealth]

Ray jay is manual, pilot turns it on, or leaves it off. M20 not so. R J parts are harder to come by, M20 is a newer design, obviously. Maxwell said 30 plus hours to install M20!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't kick either out of bed, as each makes a capable aircraft, that much more so.

[KSMooniac]

To install an M-20 system on an M20E or M20F, you must first accomplish a complete J cowl conversion according to the STC. Unfortunately the STC to swap a J cowl onto a pre-J is stuck in purgatory so you would need to scavenge those parts on your own and get a field approval for the installation. That would presumably cost 5-10k for parts, labor, and approvals before you spent the 32k for the M-20 kit, plus another few grand for the installation. Would you spend 40-50k ADDITIONAL to add a turbo to an F that might only be worth 50-60k?

[aviatoreb]

To install an M-20 system on an M20E or M20F, you must first accomplish a complete J cowl conversion according to the STC. Unfortunately the STC to swap a J cowl onto a pre-J is stuck in purgatory so you would need to scavenge those parts on your own and get a field approval for the installation. That would presumably cost 5-10k for parts, labor, and approvals before you spent the 32k for the M-20 kit, plus another few grand for the installation. Would you spend 40-50k ADDITIONAL to add a turbo to an F that might only be worth 50-60k?

I am curious - what did it used to cost? What would it cost in 1980 to install a rajay in a 1975F? There must have been a time when this made sense - but it sure does not seem to now. It makes better to buy a 231 today than buy a F and install a rajay.

[KSMooniac]

Buying a 231 today certainly makes more economic sense then adding a turbo to either an F or a J. However, you give up efficiency below turbo altitudes in a K because of the low compression pistons, so it is a trade off. You also have 6 jugs to worry about instead of 4, FWIW.

I have no idea what a Rajay system might've cost in 1980, and I bet they weren't even available to install new that recently. They had their heyday in the 60's and have been bought/sold several times over the years. I suspect it wasn't cheap, even then, but I really don't know. Looking at the modern part costs just for the standard parts of a turbo system (turbo, wastegate, pressure relief valve, intercooler, etc.) is depressing relative to the hull value of any used plane like we fly....then you have to add in the costs of all of the Mooney-specific parts and installation.

[DaV8or]

I had heard that even though the M-20 is still advertised for sale, that you can't actually get one. It's one of those "We'll make more when we get enough interested people" type of things and at $30K, or whatever it is, they're not going to find those people.

Buy the F with the Ray Jay.

[SkyPilot]

I looked at the Ray Jay. I also looked at the M20. Like the previous poster said, if you really need it, buy a newer airplane. I figured the M20 installed in my stock M20F will run me about $50,000. The Ray Jay doesn't appeal to me because they don't make them anymore. I went over the rockies at 14,500 ft the other day, into a slight quartering headwind westbound. I was grounding 138 kts at 10.4 gph. Good enough.

I looked at the LoPresti cowling. Real nice too and if you believe the 15 mph speed claim increase, WOW! but still superexpensive. Plus I'd need the new style windshield mod to start with.

I've been looking at things to increase speed for 2 years now. It comes down to economics. Buy a newer faster airplane and it is cheaper and a better investment...

[jwilkins]

When I decided that I wanted / needed a turbo charged engine I thought about adding the M20 Turbo to my VERY nice 67 F. I do believe the M20 Turbo kit is a better design than the early M20K. Everything I have read about the engineering is sound and an improvement from the original M20K. However, the cost to buy and install the kit exceeded the value of the F, and would not have added much to retail value down the road.

I called Jimmy Garrison at All American and asked him to find a decent M20K, which he did in a couple months. 231MS also had the engine upgrade, intercooler, and Merlin wastegate that, in my mind, corrected some of the early K shortcomings. For me, it was absolutely the right decision. The cost was only about 10K more than my F was worth (it was a very nice F), it's newer, and there is support for the components. Hopefully, when the time comes to try something else, it will be a little easier to sell a factory turbo than one with the conversion. As good as the M20 Turbo conversion is, I always wonder who did the installation and how well the details were followed. It is a major job.

Out here in AZ where it is hot and high, the K is the right plane for me. I've talked to people who really like the Ray Jays, and one fellow who is absolutely fanatically sold on the M20 Turbo conversion. Personally, I would not do a conversion myself, but if that was what I wanted, I would try to find an existing converted plane for sale.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I would just go out and find a nice early Mooney M20K for the cost of buying an M20F and sinking ~$40,000 in the plane for the M20 Turbo setup.

Better yet, find a runout M20K (with a nice airframe) and do the engine overhaul with a good shop or factory overhaul. Start with a nice, tight TSIO-360 and fly on your way.

[N201MKTurbo]

I have an M20 Turbo J and I have been maintaining it for 9 years. It basically is the RaJay conversion with an intercooler, fixed wastegate from a 231 and an intake pressure controller. Mine has had it's share of problems. Cracked turbo mounts, cracked exhaust system, cracked heat shields, leaking scavenger pump, Fried turbo (my fault) and failed pressure controller.

Other then that it works great!

Over the years I have resolved most of the problems and now it is pretty low maintenance.

BTW

I have discovered the rule of 600s for turbo repair...

compressor housing = $600.00

turbine housing = $600.00

compressor wheel= $600.00

turbine wheel= $600.00

bearing housing = $600.00

overhaul labor = $600.00

[KSMooniac]

Wow... I didn't know there were any converted J's out there with the Rajay system. I've seen the STC in the listings but wondered if any were done since the 231 came out soon after the J. Do you know who did the work (ie a Mooney factory option) and when it was done? I'm really curious. Or is it the Turbo Bullet STC?

[DaV8or]

I have an M20 Turbo J and I have been maintaining it for 9 years.

Sounds like even with the problems encountered, are you still glad to have it? Is this true? Regrets? Wish you had bought a 231, or 252 instead?

[Riq]

I have a rajay turbo on my m20c and really enjoy the utility it adds to the plane. Heres my experience with it in under a year (around 300hrs) and through an annual. I have a lot of questions and this will probably open the flood gate of what ive been doing wrong/right.

So far ive found I can crank it up to take off on high da runways(29/27) and not worry about loading, clear weather tops going east(usually), run lop with the turbo running(I dont without, the warm air charge seems to distribute nicely), and oh yeah, run 23/25@flight levels all day all the while never having even close to a heat issue. The mooney wing really seems to cruise up high. Ive seen 220knts gs on the gps, and I think Ill see faster.

Maintenance wise, my first annual with it was uneventful. I have to soak the turbo filter every 25 hrs to clean it up. Id like to find a screw on or alternate style to the bronze filter.

Opposed to having a 231, this was a bargain; the motor is solid, and I can still keep my cherokee.

[N201MKTurbo]

I have the M20Turbos conversion, not the RaJay conversion. I was just saying that it is essentially the same conversion with some upgrades that make it work much better.

I would miss the turbo if I didn’t have it. I flew a NA M20F for 19 years before buying this plane, so I understand the differences. I make most of my trips at high altitude and enjoy the smoother air and getting over the weather.

I flew about 2000 hours in and around the Colorado Rockies with my M20F and got very good at negotiating the passes and getting around at 12-13 K. Now I just fly over the top at 16-17K

The extra speed is nice; I once had 245 KTS GS at 17500 in level flight flying from SFO to CHD (KPHX). I normally see 155 KTS down low and 185 KTS up high.

[M20F]

Wish you had bought a 231, or 252 instead?

I would love a 252 but the reality is the majority of my flying wouldn't make use of one. Then take into account a 252 is 2-3x what you will pay for a good M20F with a Rayjay and has 2 more cylinders plus a host of other potential mechanical issues. When I take a long trip (about 30hrs a year of flying) if its worth it I can fire up the turbo and get into the FL's () and out perform a J easily in both speed and MPG. When I want to plow around locally (about 80hrs a year of flying) I can leave it off and have a simple 4 cylinder NA rock solid IO-360 engine.

A big part of it is as always whats your mission. If my mission was similar to Parker's I would be looking to upgrade to a 252, instead I am just looking to pour obscene amounts of money into my M20F to get the perfect airplane I want.

[kmyfm20s]

It looks like the M20Turbos company is up for sale! Look in the last few MAPA magazine classified section.

 

I use my plane to fly to work often and as much as I fly below 8000 ft it doesnt make economical sence for me to fly anything but my J. This is the first year I have had this plane and between reconfiguring avionics and de-sqawking it I have still flown 100hrs. With past plane it has been 225hrs+ per year which will be more characteristic from now on. Now that summer is here I sure would like a turbo to get over the thermals for my weekend fun trips to the mountains and this seems like this system would be a good solution.

[RJBrown]

The cost to do the conversion is RIDICULOUS. No matter how good it MAY be its not worth it. As everyone pointed out trading planes is always cheaper.

That said if it was priced about half what it is it would sell well and be worth it. There has to be a LOT of margin in the kit at $30,000.

[kmyfm20s]

The cost to do the conversion is RIDICULOUS. No matter how good it MAY be its not worth it. As everyone pointed out trading planes is always cheaper.

That said if it was priced about half what it is it would sell well and be worth it. There has to be a LOT of margin in the kit at $30,000.

I know and agree. I was hoping someone on the forum would buy the company and start selling fo 15K:) It looks like they are selling the STC and remaining inventory for 40K.

[KSMooniac]

Unfortunately the cost of the older Rajay components have gone thru the roof as those product lines have been sold through the years.  Now Hartzell Engine Technologies has them after purchase Kelly Aerospace, and the prices are crazy-high for 40+ year old products.  That is the biggest problem in the price of that kit, and there isn't much that can be done unless HET decides they want to expand their market share and lower prices...

[M20F-1968]

I have a bit of experience here and will chime in:

 

The original JayJay turbo system had its heyday in the 1960's.  RayJay as a company was in California, the STC then went to Kelley Aerospace, and then to ModWorks.  It is now effectively an orphaned STC as ModWorks is no longer an entity.  The STC is not specific to any particular airframe since in those days RayJay did not specify a specific airframe for installation.

 

The original RayJay and the M20 Turbos system are very much the same, except that the M20 system has an intercooler, a pop-off valve and a fixed wastegate.  The configuration of the pipes and installation is different for the two systems.  The Original RayJay utilized the F or E model airbox in the lower part of the cowling nose.  The M20 Turbo system utilized the J model airbox.  This is the prime reason why the M20 Turbo system requires a J model cowling (but the STC paperwork I believe also legally requires the J model cowling).  The expense to install a M20 Turbo system on an E or F is therefore enormous since the J model cowling needs to be installed first.  With the installation of the J model cowling also comes the installation of cowl flanges, new engine baffling, the cost to rebuild a factory original J model cowling, and a DER to sign it all off given prior data since there exists no specific STC to put a J model cowling onto the E or F.  You will also probably want a 201 windshield and cowl deck if you have gotten into the airplane to this extent. 

 

The Original RayJay and the M 20 Turbo systems utilize all the same major parts (turbo and scavenger pump are the same).  The exaust shape and routing are different.  The M 20 Turbo system has a fixed wastegate and the Original RayJay has a manually adjustable wastegate as already mentioned.   The manual wastegate can be completely closed so you can obtain a higher critical altitude which may be preferred.  With the manual wastegate, you can also take the tubo off-line and opersate the engine in a normally aspirated mode as though the turbo was not there at all.  This is completely pilot controlled.

 

Time to install the Original RayJay is about 40 hours.  It is essentially a bolt-on installation. 

 

The M20 Turbo system exhaust and parts are EXACTLY the same as the Turbo Bullet, except that the Turbo Bullet was an attempt to turbo boost a J model which did not work well. 

 

The M20 Turbo system, like to original RayJay, is a system that is limited to turbo normalizing the engine, retains the same pistons and compression ratios as the original normally aspirated engine, and does not have the added engine maintenance of a turbo boosted engine.  The nurbonormalized applications work very well, with more utility of the airplance, no more engine maintenance, and the same operating costs as the normally aspirated engine.

 

FYI:  I have an Original RayJay system, with the major components rebuilt to new condition.  The exhaust pipes are one gauge stainless steel heavier than the original, the wastgate is substantially more beefed-up from the origin (this was a probem with the original parts warping with heat as they were made of exhaust pipe material only) and all paperwork.  I have 2 turbos - one completely rebuilt and one with 300 hrs - both with paperwork, rebuilt scavenger pump with paperwork, both STC's - one to install the turbo on the IO-360 Lycoming and another to install the turbonormalized engine into an E or F model Mooney, the FAA POH letter with operating specs, install manual, parts manual, and all drawings referred to in the STC's.  This is as close to a new system as you will find anywhere.  The man who did the rebuilt of the exhaust pipes used to work at RayJay and had the original jigs.  He now is no longer workin due to a medical problem. 

 

A problem with pourchasing a plane with a RayJay already on it is that the parts will probably need rebuilding. 

Further,m it is much better to find the best E or F model you can find, and then insatll the turbo, rather than limit your search for a plane with the turbo on it.  1) As I mentioned, the turbo system will probably need an overhaul, and 2) there may be, and probably are nicer E and F models without the turbo which you would not have seen or evaluated.  As such, you will be limiting your options of aircraft to purchase.

 

Additionally, I have a servicable set of original RayJay exhaust pipes should anyone need them.

 

I have attached pictures.  If anyone would like to call, my cell phone is (617) 877-0025 and my e-mail is johnabreda@yahoo.com

 

Thanks,

John Breda

 

 

[carusoam]

Alan's E needs one of these systems!

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F-1968]

I have a rebuilt original RayJay system for an E or F (could also accommodate a J with the help of a DER) which I which I will sell for $15,000 or less depending on the turbo included.

This can be a great way for someone to add a whole lot of utility to the normally aspirated IO-360 powered Mooney.

 

John Breda

e-mail: john.breda@gmail.com

Cell: (617) 877-0025

[FoxMike]

Having owned a RayJay E model many years ago and owing two factory turbo systems airplanes since, I can tell you the best deal for you is to find a 231.  I liked the manual wastegate on the RayJay but little else.  In the original configuration the induction system was so poor that I spent a ton redesigning it.  Oil temp was also a problem again requiring redesign.  The M20 turbo I have no experience with but have heard a lot of stories none of them good.  Both systems passed FAA cert but neither worked well.  If you happen to be a mechanic or want to make one rich continue on your present path.   If you want something you can regularly fly and enjoy find a good 231.  Good Luck.

Walt

[N201MKTurbo]

Oh, I don't know. My M20Turbo system works pretty well. It has been very low maintenance other then my own bone head things.