Logbook Page Removed and not Disclosed - Criminal Misrepresentation?

[67 m20F chump]

Those lord shock disks are $178 at aircraft spruce and A&P’s get a discount off that.  

[MikeOH]

While the $135/hr isn't out of line, I think many of the labor time charges are!  E.g., 3 hours to clean out a couple of birds' nests?? (Further, do you think the A&P is going to do that, or the $25/hour shop-flunky?).  Also, looks like his mark-up on parts may be on the high side.

Listen to what @EricJ says; you NEED a second opinion on many of these items.  I'm NOT an A&P like Eric, but a lot don't look like airworthiness items to my eye (as an 8 year owner).

[GeeBee]

Automotive filters in the fuel line raises a question. Why? Is there that much gunk in the tanks? Where is it coming from?

[M20GforMe]

34 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Valve clearance needs to be checked with the tappets dry.   If they didn't remove and empty the lifters, they're going to think the pushrod is too long.   

Essentially all reputable engine shops have had very long lead times for years.   

FWIW, based on what you've said so far, and the squawk list you got from the A&P I would STRONGLY suggest that you get an A&P who is very familiar with Mooneys to provide a second opinion on everything, including the engine issues.   There are a number of things on the squawk list that I think need a second set of Mooney-experienced eyes, and I suspect much of that list (if not most or maybe all) does not represent airworthiness issues.

DO NOT move the data plate until further investigation.    Not all Mooneys had the data plate on the tail.   Some were on the nose in front of the wing, and there may have been other places as well.    This is one of those things that raises a yellow (if not red) flag.   I wouldn't move the data plate unless there was a compelling reason to do so.   "The A&P said so" is the LEAST compelling reason to do something like that.    As a new aircraft owner you should be made aware that YOU, and not the A&P, are legally responsible for the maintenance on the aircraft.   Ultimately you are in charge.

Don't sign up for new engine mounts until you determine that the shims have been adjusted the maximum amount for any droop that may or may not be happening. 

Bottom line, I'd stop everything and get a 2nd opinion from an experienced Mooney mechanic.   There are too many big questions about what you've described so far.

I guess I should ask what my options are at this point. The plane is at their shop, it’s out of annual now (wasn’t when they got it). It’s been a royal pain in the ass finding an A&P in the Chicago area. I called many places and got everything from “we don’t have the bandwidth” to “call us next month and see if we’re available”. These guys had a few mooneys in their shop when I took it there so it installed some confidence.

Do I tell them to put it back together and get a ferry permit to have it taken somewhere else? Or am I screwed by the fact that’s it’s in their possession and out of annual (which was my original thought and why I’ve been saying yes to everything). The annual was supposed to be done in about a week with all the squawks on the original quote I shared. (They’ve had it for about 5 weeks now)

They seem experienced and like they know what they’re doing, but they definitely aren’t the cost effective guy on the block. It’s at KLOT right now if anyone has advice in this area.

[MikeOH]

UGH! You are in a difficult position at this point. Just getting it 'put back together' in order to get a ferry permit could be daunting. Especially since it's unlikely this shop is going to facilitate getting one! You'll need to, somehow, bring in another A&P to look over the plane.

You might try and contact the owners of the other Mooneys in the shop (try looking up the N numbers) to see if they've used the shop before and how happy they've been; could give you an idea of whether to continue to work with the shop, or run.

I'd try and work down the list, in person, with each discrepancy to see how bad it really is (just some surface rust vs. structural corrosion) and if the item can be deferred (i.e. NOT an airworthiness issue).  As others have pointed out, did they properly measure the valve lash?  That's a pretty basic mistake if they didn't properly drain the lifters first.  I'm not sure how to go about asking that question to get a straight answer, sorry.

Especially the big ticket items like the Lord engine mounts!

How disassembled is the plane? Have they removed the engine?

[M20GforMe]

25 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

UGH! You are in a difficult position at this point. Just getting it 'put back together' in order to get a ferry permit could be daunting. Especially since it's unlikely this shop is going to facilitate getting one! You'll need to, somehow, bring in another A&P to look over the plane.

You might try and contact the owners of the other Mooneys in the shop (try looking up the N numbers) to see if they've used the shop before and how happy they've been; could give you an idea of whether to continue to work with the shop, or run.

I'd try and work down the list, in person, with each discrepancy to see how bad it really is (just some surface rust vs. structural corrosion) and if the item can be deferred (i.e. NOT an airworthiness issue).  As others have pointed out, did they properly measure the valve lash?  That's a pretty basic mistake if they didn't properly drain the lifters first.  I'm not sure how to go about asking that question to get a straight answer, sorry.

Especially the big ticket items like the Lord engine mounts!

How disassembled is the plane? Have they removed the engine?

I don’t believe the engine is removed, I’ve asked for photos of its current state. If I had to guess the prop hasn’t been reinstalled and I’m unsure if the new alternator has been installed yet. Engine would most likely be disassembled for the rocker replacement. Everything on the quote is about done. Since they were almost all airworthiness items I didn’t think I really had an option besides approving. 

[N201MKTurbo]

The rockers seem crazy. I would send them out for overhaul. Aircraft Speciality Services reconditions rockers. They charge about $25 each. If they cannot be refurbished, they will find a rebuildable used rocker.

[M20GforMe]

I believe that replacement rockers were sourced, sending them out to be repaired wasn’t an option presented to me. I was just sent some photos, the prop and alternator are off and a lot of the rest of the plane hasn’t been put back together yet but I think those repairs are about done and they could be reassembled. The engine is not removed but is partially disassembled for the rocker replacement 

[Paul Thomas]

I disagree with some posters, especially when it comes to parts. Shops should mark up parts above what they pay for them and it should be a source of profit... they are after all selling the part to the customer. Even though the shop does get parts on discount from sources like Spruce, the shop puts resources into obtaining the parts it's not a free endeavor. I expected the cost of parts to be much higher as it feels like a bigger shop with big markups.

Time, method of repair, and whether some of these things are airworthy are subject to debate but we're only seeing the bill (or quote?) without we don't have all the facts. Few shops bill based on actual time spent on the aircraft; tasks are assigned a time in the computer and that's how the bill gets generated. None of us have laid eyes on the aircraft. so we're making educated guesses. The truth is that a lot of owners drop off their airplane at a shop, don't want to be disturbed by making decisions, and expect the shop to fix things as needed to maintain the airplane to a certain standard. When airplanes are dropped off without precise instruction and a clear understanding by both parties, surprise bills are likely to happen.

While these squawks do add up, the engine is about to be added to that list. My advice is to sit down with the AI, let him know that you'll pay for his time but want to be educated on the process and discuss how we are going to proceed forward for what has not been fixed. Given the lack of experience from the OP, I would ask to have each issue explained, why it's an airworthiness issue, what are acceptable methods to resolve it, and make a list. The OP should be able to make some decisions on the spot but may need some time to research others.

I'm really sorry that you're going through this and the cost of tuition; you may benefit from a service like Mike Bush. The good news is that you can develop a relationship with your AI, and now that you've gone through this experience you'll be a wiser customer. Your airplane is also being brought to your AI standard which should make future annuals easier for everyone.

I would not be surprised if the bill doubles before this is over. Post like these make me SO thankful for my IA.

[Igor_U]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Automotive filters in the fuel line raises a question. Why? Is there that much gunk in the tanks? Where is it coming from?

I believe reference is to filters for Brittain gyro vacuum lines that they were making by trimming the Fram fuel filters and attaching Brittain p/n stickers on. I have a couple of old filters that I kept for the sticker only. Brittain does not exist anymore and Fram (or similar) is all we can get and that's what I would use on my F. AFIK there are no fuel filters in fuel system just the screens.

[1980Mooney]

39 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

While the $135/hr isn't out of line, ........ (Further, do you think the A&P is going to do that, or the $25/hour shop-flunky?).  Also, looks like his mark-up on parts may be on the high side.

Please don't scare/mislead a new owner - that is classic Mooney CB. @M20GforMe (CB is "cheap bastard" in Mooney-speak).  No shop is going to give you a discount if they have a mechanic in training working on your plane.  The shop rate is the shop rate.

[M20GforMe]

To the shops credit - when they dropped the initial quote on me, they didn’t just send it to me. They had me come in, showed me everything on the quote on the actual plane, and walked me through them line by line as they presented the quote. I do think they’re knowledgeable, this was not meant to be slander against the A&P shop. At the end of the day, I want a safe aircraft and I’m not doubting that they will deliver that. I also don’t doubt that they’re experienced. The owner of the shop used to work at the shop at my now home field, which used to be a Mooney Service Center. (I’m not sure how much overlap there was though either)

I also totally understand parts being marked up within reason, sourcing and such have costs involved. I obviously don’t think I’m getting the best deal on the block, which I’m okay with, but I don’t want to be getting screwed over either which I don’t think they’re trying to do. I think they’re airing on the side of caution but also trying to run a business
 

What’s going to stink is being $125k into a plane worth $80k at the end of this, and also not having a plane for 6 more months. But I’ll appreciate having a plane I can trust with my life when I do finally get to fly it

[GeeBee]

9 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

I believe reference is to filters for Brittain gyro vacuum lines that they were making by trimming the Fram fuel filters and attaching Brittain p/n stickers on. I have a couple of old filters that I kept for the sticker only. Brittain does not exist anymore and Fram (or similar) is all we can get and that's what I would use on my F. AFIK there are no fuel filters in fuel system just the screens.

He said in his OP, "the fuel filters were replaced with automotive fuel filters," which is why I questioned. He does have fuel sealant issues on the shops punch list which is why I questioned it all.

[Igor_U]

2 hours ago, M20GforMe said:

 

I am just curious: What is this picture showing? I just have no idea... Thanks.

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

37 minutes ago, M20GforMe said:

I believe that replacement rockers were sourced, sending them out to be repaired wasn’t an option presented to me. I was just sent some photos, the prop and alternator are off and a lot of the rest of the plane hasn’t been put back together yet but I think those repairs are about done and they could be reassembled. The engine is not removed but is partially disassembled for the rocker replacement 

Definitely get a second opinion before pulling the engine.  The rockers/case thing makes no sense at all.

[cliffy]

Get in touch with Mike Busch at SavvyAvaition.com  right now

He is the guy you need for help RIGHT NOW 

His fees are reasonable and the cheapest money you will ever spend on your plane.

savvyaviation.com

Run don't walk to your computer!!!

[Rwsavory]

The discrepancy list looks like the product of an overzealous inspector, at best. 

[M20GforMe]

I may have misspoke, I had him send me a photo, it was a Fram filter, but doesn’t look like it’s in the fuel system.

I’m going to swing by the shop tomorrow, get a detailed explanation and photos of the rocker situation, and see if I can share them here for some additional guidance. A big thank you to everyone who has provided some input already. I’ll record the mechanics explanation of the situation so nothing is lost in translation when I post the update here. 
 

Also someone touched on the serial plate number before - I asked about this a few weeks ago. The serial plate is where it’s supposed to be, I watched videos of other G’s and found the plate to be in the same location. I had intentions to fly the plane to Canada and back. When I asked the A&P to leave it as is and remove from the quote, they said “The data plate is in the original spot. I wasn't going to remove the original one. I was going to stamp and install another one on the pilot's side tail. If you weren't planning on flying out of the country, we would not worry about it. But since you do plan on it. It has to be secured to the exterior fuselage, near the on the rear of the fuselage near the tail surfaces”

[MikeOH]

36 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Please don't scare/mislead a new owner - that is classic Mooney CB. @M20GforMe (CB is "cheap bastard" in Mooney-speak).  No shop is going to give you a discount if they have a mechanic in training working on your plane.  The shop rate is the shop rate.

I am NOT trying to scare anyone. In FACT, I stated the $135/hr was a fair shop rate.

I was sharing MY experience with labor hours for various discrepancies based on the 7 annuals I've had.  I find 3 hours to remove a couple of birds' nests to be excessive; I don't think that's being a CB, but you're certainly free to think that's a fair price!

As far as materials' mark-ups, what do you think is fair? 15%, 25%, 50%, 100%?  At what point would you feel taken advantage of?

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

Don't sign up for new engine mounts until you determine that the shims have been adjusted the maximum amount for any droop that may or may not be happening. .

 

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

 I'm not sure how to go about asking that question to get a straight answer, sorry.

Especially the big ticket items like the Lord engine mounts!

Perhaps you did not see that the shop found corrosion on the engine mount and prescribed Corrective Action of "Strip down, clean and paint to prevent reoccurrence".  If you are having the engine pulled (for issues you highlight) and if they are removing the engine mount frame, then it would be really cheap/"penny wise" to not replace the Lord or Barry mounts at the time. 

@M20GforMe - corrosion allowance is only 10%.  I don't know your mount tubular dimensions, but it might only be 0.035- 0.065 inch thick.  That means that corrosion of only 0.004 - 0.006 inches renders it unairworthy.  That could be one thick hairs width.  Then you get into welding it. It would be best to address it while the engine is out.  Otherwise the cost becomes huge if you have to do it in the future.

 

 

[MikeOH]

No question you should refurb (strip and paint) the engine mount IF the engine has to come out.

OTOH, I'd want to examine the mount to make sure it isn't just missing paint and surface rust vs. significant corrosion (>10% depth).

Also, I've had my Lord mounts replaced WITHOUT removing the engine.  And, no, my A&P didn't have to 'beat up' the firewall to do it.

[1980Mooney]

@M20GforMe - as a new owner you are "drinking from a firehose" right now.  

I can tell from your quote for the Annual that you are using Coletti Aviation at KLOT.  

Mooney M20 Annual Inspection | COLETTI AVIATION

There aren't any PIREP's on Coletti on either Mooneyspace or Beechtalk so it is hard to say anything about their experience, but their pricing seems to be pretty transparent.

Maintenance | COLETTI AVIATION

Looking at your list, there are some things that another A&P (actually it is the IA) "might" let you "kick the can down the road", but it can be "pay me now or pay me a lot more later".  For instance, it appears there is corrosion on the steel tubular fuselage cage  - 4.5 shop hours to address it.  You definitely want to do it.  Then there is the corrosion on the Push/Pull control tubes.  I had the same issue when I changed A&P - the old one signed off on the surface corrosion, but the new one would not.  In the end it was better to stop the corrosion sooner rather than later.  You might be able to spread some of this out over future Annuals but spending more money to put your plane back together, fly to another A&P, pay them to undo your plane again - and then perhaps write up the same list of discrepancies becomes a real money loser. 

Read this article by Mike Bush - others have referenced Mike Bush who is "Savvy Aviation"

EAA_2011-05_is-it-safe-is-it-airworthy.pdf

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, 67 m20F chump said:

This is why so many end up building Vans Aircraft.

If you don't need more than two seats, and frankly, most of us don't, Vans are a great option.

[takair]

1 hour ago, M20GforMe said:

I may have misspoke, I had him send me a photo, it was a Fram filter, but doesn’t look like it’s in the fuel system.

I’m going to swing by the shop tomorrow, get a detailed explanation and photos of the rocker situation, and see if I can share them here for some additional guidance. A big thank you to everyone who has provided some input already. I’ll record the mechanics explanation of the situation so nothing is lost in translation when I post the update here. 
 

Also someone touched on the serial plate number before - I asked about this a few weeks ago. The serial plate is where it’s supposed to be, I watched videos of other G’s and found the plate to be in the same location. I had intentions to fly the plane to Canada and back. When I asked the A&P to leave it as is and remove from the quote, they said “The data plate is in the original spot. I wasn't going to remove the original one. I was going to stamp and install another one on the pilot's side tail. If you weren't planning on flying out of the country, we would not worry about it. But since you do plan on it. It has to be secured to the exterior fuselage, near the on the rear of the fuselage near the tail surfaces”

Those look like the air filters for the Brittain system.  Brittain sourced them from Fram.  Given Brittain does not sell them anymore, you too can source them from Fram…..

[M20GforMe]

20 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

@M20GforMe - as a new owner you are "drinking from a firehose" right now.  

I can tell from your quote for the Annual that you are using Coletti Aviation at KLOT.  

Mooney M20 Annual Inspection | COLETTI AVIATION

There aren't any PIREP's on Coletti on either Mooneyspace or Beechtalk so it is hard to say anything about their experience, but their pricing seems to be pretty transparent.

Maintenance | COLETTI AVIATION

Looking at your list, there are some things that another A&P (actually it is the IA) "might" let you "kick the can down the road", but it can be "pay me now or pay me a lot more later".  For instance, it appears there is corrosion on the steel tubular fuselage cage  - 4.5 shop hours to address it.  You definitely want to do it.  Then there is the corrosion on the Push/Pull control tubes.  I had the same issue when I changed A&P - the old one signed off on the surface corrosion, but the new one would not.  In the end it was better to stop the corrosion sooner rather than later.  You might be able to spread some of this out over future Annuals but spending more money to put your plane back together, fly to another A&P, pay them to undo your plane again - and then perhaps write up the same list of discrepancies becomes a real money loser. 

Read this article by Mike Bush - others have referenced Mike Bush who is "Savvy Aviation"

EAA_2011-05_is-it-safe-is-it-airworthy.pdf

This is correct - I was trying to not name names, as I don't think there was anything to gain/lose by naming the A&P as of current. It's a newer shop. From my understanding, the owner Brenden Coletti worked at 06C, then when the FBO at 06C was taken over by Revv, he didnt like the way Revv was operating things and left to start his own shop. I had my plane at Revv previously and was definitely not satisfied with their process/work. To my knowledge, 06C was a Mooney Service Center up until Revv took over. (I believe the FBO was Schaumburg Flyers back then)

There has been an M20K at Revv thats been grounded since November, and since then, Revv has gotten the boot (or left on their own accord, don't know the full story) from the field and its been taken over by Holiday Airways, who has not yet opened their A&P shop. Given that my Flight School owner said he would trust Colletti, and that I couldn't get another A&P to commit to taking on the annual (except Travel Express at Dupage, with whom I have had a not great experience with already), I took the plane to Colletti.

I will say, besides having to have a wallet that can handle it, breaking into aviation without a pre-existing aviation "network" has been tough. That being said, everyone has been welcoming and very helpful, but it took a while to meet the guys in town who have Mooney's, I could've used their wealth of knowledge and network sooner.

Having a Mooney in a world of Cessna's definitely can feel like driving a Porsche in the middle of Chevy Country.