Wing tips $3000 OBO

[Jesse20]

Hello selling my wing tips I was going to install them on my 1967 Mooney executive F 

see images below $3K OBO

[Echo]

$2k on Ebay, $3k here. What’s up with that?

[00-Negative]

I think it's up for bid starting at $2k with a buy-it-now for $3k.

[M20F-1968]

FYI:  The claim has been made (by LASAR 20 years ago) that wingtips were not compatible with twisted wing Mooneys such as my 68 F and your 67 F.  I never understood that given the nature of the twist, which installed the outer wing section with the outboard forward corner of the wing about 1" lower.  That was the only change as I believe.  Can anyone explain the incompatibility.  (Not that I want to do anything to my plane now, but I might have 20 years ago).

[Pasturepilot]

On 3/1/2025 at 2:23 AM, M20F-1968 said:

FYI:  The claim has been made (by LASAR 20 years ago) that wingtips were not compatible with twisted wing Mooneys such as my 68 F and your 67 F.  I never understood that given the nature of the twist, which installed the outer wing section with the outboard forward corner of the wing about 1" lower.  That was the only change as I believe.  Can anyone explain the incompatibility.  (Not that I want to do anything to my plane now, but I might have 20 years ago).

As I understand, it's not the airfoil shape that's incompatible when using the later model wingtips. It's the outer part of the aileron that is the problem. I've got the STC'ed tips on my C. 

[cliffy]

5 hours ago, Pasturepilot said:

As I understand, it's not the airfoil shape that's incompatible when using the later model wingtips. It's the outer part of the aileron that is the problem. I've got the STC'ed tips on my C. 

Do they do anything for performance? But they do add good looks?  How much is lost in empty weight?

[DXB]

12 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Do they do anything for performance? But they do add good looks?  How much is lost in empty weight?

My C came with these.  They do look nice and I don't think they add much weight at all given they're fiberglass.   Doubt there's any performance gain speed wise.  I've heard they make the roll response a bit more crisp by keeping air attached to the outer edge of the aileron.  I'm not sure that's true, but my plane does seem a bit more responsive roll inputs than Mooneys I've flown without them.

[patriot3300]

Here is the STC that I “believe” is for these tips

Does anyone have the installation drawing referenced in the STC?

Is the fence shown on my pic (65 C model) installed on everyone’s C with these tips?

Stuart

[Hank]

Yes, that fence keeps the lights out of your eyes.

[patriot3300]

Thanks Hank,

If you happen to have the installation drawing referenced in the STC I’d love to have a copy

Stuart

[Hank]

1 minute ago, patriot3300 said:

Thanks Hank,

If you happen to have the installation drawing referenced in the STC I’d love to have a copy

Stuart

The previous owner had them put on. I'll try to dig through the logbooks, but I don't remember seeing any drawings for anything (wingtips or windshield).

[patriot3300]

44 minutes ago, Hank said:

The previous owner had them put on. I'll try to dig through the logbooks, but I don't remember seeing any drawings for anything (wingtips or windshield).

I appreciate your Effort in doing so,It’s possible that The Drawing was filed when the 337 was submitted to the FAA.

In my case I have the 337 and STC but no Drawing.

If you’d like the complete record of Documents submitted to the Feds for your Aircrafts life just fill out the form here and wait a while.(assuming you didn’t already know)

https://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/ND/

 

Stuart

[DCarlton]

16 hours ago, Pasturepilot said:

As I understand, it's not the airfoil shape that's incompatible when using the later model wingtips. It's the outer part of the aileron that is the problem. I've got the STC'ed tips on my C. 

Ailerons line up fine.  Take a look at my MS profile pic.  Zoom in and look at the right wingtip from the front.  Installed decades ago.  

[A64Pilot]

21 hours ago, cliffy said:

Do they do anything for performance? But they do add good looks?  How much is lost in empty weight?

Weight is there of course but doubt it’s much, tips on GA aircraft are ineffectual as we don’t cruise at high angles of attack, in theory they could help in climb but I doubt it’s measurable. If you want them for looks I think you will be pleased, if you buy for performance I think you won’t be happy.

When the J first came out LoPresti was asked in an interview what the performance gain was and he shifted to how good they looked, said the reminded him of some woman named Stacy’s nose, she has such a pretty nose.

I think technically as they do add a small amount of frontal area which is a drag increase that they may actually hurt performance, by an amount that’s calculable but not measurable.  Insignificant in other words. 

Like wheel pants on older Pipers and Cessna’s they improved looks but didn’t do much for drag reduction, modern ones like on RV’s do.

 

[Slick Nick]

58 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Weight is there of course but doubt it’s much, tips on GA aircraft are ineffectual as we don’t cruise at high angles of attack, in theory they could help in climb but I doubt it’s measurable. If you want them for looks I think you will be pleased, if you buy for performance I think you won’t be happy.

When the J first came out LoPresti was asked in an interview what the performance gain was and he shifted to how good they looked, said the reminded him of some woman named Stacy’s nose, she has such a pretty nose.

I think technically as they do add a small amount of frontal area which is a drag increase that they may actually hurt performance, by an amount that’s calculable but not measurable.  Insignificant in other words. 

Like wheel pants on older Pipers and Cessna’s they improved looks but didn’t do much for drag reduction, modern ones like on RV’s do.

 

According to FLYING mag’s interview with the guys at Mooney regarding the wingtips installed on the J models, they decreased the clean stall speed by 6 knots and helped improve short field takeoff performance. 

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Weight is there of course but doubt it’s much, tips on GA aircraft are ineffectual as we don’t cruise at high angles of attack, in theory they could help in climb but I doubt it’s measurable. If you want them for looks I think you will be pleased, if you buy for performance I think you won’t be happy.

When the J first came out LoPresti was asked in an interview what the performance gain was and he shifted to how good they looked, said the reminded him of some woman named Stacy’s nose, she has such a pretty nose.

I think technically as they do add a small amount of frontal area which is a drag increase that they may actually hurt performance, by an amount that’s calculable but not measurable.  Insignificant in other words. 

Like wheel pants on older Pipers and Cessna’s they improved looks but didn’t do much for drag reduction, modern ones like on RV’s do.

 

They should increase the aspect ratio, which should decrease the induced drag.  Probably not enough to see.

[A64Pilot]

55 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

They should increase the aspect ratio, which should decrease the induced drag.  Probably not enough to see.

They DO reduce drag at high angles of attack, Winglets are better of course but even end plates work.

But we cruise at low angles of attack unlike Airliners, then add in many aircraft have washout, the tips have even lower angle of attack.

So far as reducing stall speed significantly? I doubt that.

A friend, a Dr Ralph Kimberlin had an STC for winglets for a Twin Bonanza, I teased him about them not knowing he was the STC holder, he claimed they helped climb. 

Personally I think they may have but bet money they slowed cruise because of drag, probably not much though and I have zero data to support that belief.

Edited March 3 by A64Pilot

[patriot3300]

13 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Ailerons line up fine.  Take a look at my MS profile pic.  Zoom in and look at the right wingtip from the front.  Installed decades ago.  

Here is the 65C for comparison.

Obviously the  aileron is deflected(Sorry)

Hopefully it will allow a reasonable comparison nevertheless.

Stuart

 

 

[cliffy]

I once saw a wing tip mod that looked like a barrel minus the end plates attached to the wing tips of a flat rib end wing. 

The theory was it reduced wing tip vortex. 

It was on a low speed small aircraft.

Way before Whitcomb.

Probably did the same as winglets or tip plates and nothing more in reducing tip drag but at our speeds how much improvement 

would there be?

Kind of like having a Caproni airplane on each wingtip. 

[Pinecone]

22 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

They DO reduce drag at high angles of attack, Winglets are better of course but even end plates work.

But we cruise at low angles of attack unlike Airliners, then add in many aircraft have washout, the tips have even lower angle of attack.

So far as reducing stall speed significantly? I doubt that.

A friend, a Dr Ralph Kimberlin had an STC for winglets for a Twin Bonanza, I teased him about them not knowing he was the STC holder, he claimed they helped climb. 

Personally I think they may have but bet money they slowed cruise because of drag, probably not much though and I have zero data to support that belief.

Higher aspect ratio has lower induced drag.  Yes, we cruise at lower AoA, but there will still be less drag.

Winglets reduce drag by about the same amount as increasing the wingspan the same amount.   Airliners are limited in wingspan to gate space/clearance.   You see winglets on competition sailplanes, as some classes are limited in wingspan.

[pirate]

I installed my tips back in the late 90’s I think I still have the drawings, pretty easy to install. I’ll look later when I get home. 
After my install I did notice a tad more roll response during the landing flare which I like during turbulent landings. 
They sure look cool, I thought they were worth the purchase. 

[A64Pilot]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Higher aspect ratio has lower induced drag.  Yes, we cruise at lower AoA, but there will still be less drag.

Winglets reduce drag by about the same amount as increasing the wingspan the same amount.   Airliners are limited in wingspan to gate space/clearance.   You see winglets on competition sailplanes, as some classes are limited in wingspan.

It reduces drag by reducing the vortices that are generated by the difference in air pressure from the top and bottom of the wing. AKA induced drag, one way is just from the decreased wing area at the tip, a big ole fat Hersey bar wing has a lot of area at the tip, a sailplane very little.

If your producing little lift at the tip, there is little induced drag, at the tip.

If I look I can show you pictures of a Thrush crop duster spraying, the spray is similar to smoke in making vortices visible. In level flight there are pretty much no visible vortices, the spray lays down flat in the field, at the end when you pull up if your still spraying you can really see the vortices, this is due of course from increased angle of attack at the whole wing of course but the tips now have pretty significant vortices. The Thrush has a 1.5 degree washout, not a lot but enough so that there is very little lift in a decently high speed cruise, even though it had the big old fat Hersey bar wing.

So yes any kind of “fence” that prevents the air under the wing from mixing with the air above the wing will reduce drag, hopefully more than the drag it produces but on an average GA airplane in cruise the drag reduction is pretty much nothing.

But an aircraft that flies at high angles of attack in cruise can really benefit from tips reducing drag, reason you see such high tech ones on an airliner but on a GA airplane they are more for marketing (look cool)

But you just can’t convince some, look at these things on a Thrush crop duster, my testing showed the did little to nothing, but they do move the center of mass on the wing and the center of pressure so they will change bending moment etc and most likely increase wing fatigue, how much who knows?

I’d try to tell people that if the accomplished half of what was claimed I’d fit them on at the factory, they aren’t Patented, nothing stopped me from building them

https://www.johnstonaircraft.com/Ag Tip Winglets.htm

I have to think if you got a couple of kts out of J model looking tips, EVERY Mooney would have them, these guys remove steps, hide antennas in the airframe and who knows what else for a kt  

Edited Tuesday at 08:51 PM by A64Pilot

[patriot3300]

From flying Magazine

 

Magic Mooney 201

 

PIA BERGQVIST

Updated Nov 11, 2021 9:32 AM EST

LoPresti also fitted the M20J with new sculpted wingtips in 1981, although no speed improvement was seen with this modification. However, Wheat said the square wingtip design of prior M20 models produced turbulence at the outboard 10 to 12 inches of the ailerons. LoPresti’s wingtip design made a “noticeable improvement in the handling” by making the airflow over the ailerons smoother, which reduced the control wheel loads and created a faster roll rate, Wheat said.

 

I Think this sums it up very well ! 
 

The tips improve handling and look dynamite doing so

 

Stuart

[Slick Nick]

[Slick Nick]

7 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

It reduces drag by reducing the vortices that are generated by the difference in air pressure from the top and bottom of the wing. AKA induced drag, one way is just from the decreased wing area at the tip, a big ole fat Hersey bar wing has a lot of area at the tip, a sailplane very little.

If your producing little lift at the tip, there is little induced drag, at the tip.

If I look I can show you pictures of a Thrush crop duster spraying, the spray is similar to smoke in making vortices visible. In level flight there are pretty much no visible vortices, the spray lays down flat in the field, at the end when you pull up if your still spraying you can really see the vortices, this is due of course from increased angle of attack at the whole wing of course but the tips now have pretty significant vortices. The Thrush has a 1.5 degree washout, not a lot but enough so that there is very little lift in a decently high speed cruise, even though it had the big old fat Hersey bar wing.

So yes any kind of “fence” that prevents the air under the wing from mixing with the air above the wing will reduce drag, hopefully more than the drag it produces but on an average GA airplane in cruise the drag reduction is pretty much nothing.

But an aircraft that flies at high angles of attack in cruise can really benefit from tips reducing drag, reason you see such high tech ones on an airliner but on a GA airplane they are more for marketing (look cool)

But you just can’t convince some, look at these things on a Thrush crop duster, my testing showed the did little to nothing, but they do move the center of mass on the wing and the center of pressure so they will change bending moment etc and most likely increase wing fatigue, how much who knows?

I’d try to tell people that if the accomplished half of what was claimed I’d fit them on at the factory, they aren’t Patented, nothing stopped me from building them

https://www.johnstonaircraft.com/Ag Tip Winglets.htm

I have to think if you got a couple of kts out of J model looking tips, EVERY Mooney would have them, these guys remove steps, hide antennas in the airframe and who knows what else for a kt  

It’s been documented time and time again that there is a performance benefit to be had. How much is open for debate, but to continue to ignore the data in thread after thread and trying to rebut it with anecdotes of Thrush crop dusters seems like a fruitless endeavour. 

Edited Wednesday at 03:41 AM by Slick Nick