Philly Lear 55 crash

[DXB]

Taking off into low IMC is serious business in a Mooney or any other bird.  This departure was into 6SM 400 OVC BR on Friday night from my home drome and tragically ended 40 seconds later in a crash into a densely populated area resulting in at least 7 deaths (including 1 person on the ground), several serious injuries on the ground, and major property damage.  I find Juan Brown's interpretation of spatial disorientation LOC here compelling (albeit admittedly speculative).   Sadly we might never know much more given lack of CVR/FDR and the pulverized state of the wreckage after a steep nose down impact and massive fireball.   I'm curious what the seasoned folk here think about this disaster and how they personally handle such departures. I'm far from a pro, but I'm forever grateful to my IR instructor for having taken me through real departures like this, and I continue to hear his voice any time I climb into IMC...

 

[MikeOH]

Maybe it's just me, but the video I saw looked like the jet was ON FIRE before it even hit the ground!  I'm not seeing how LOC due to spatial disorientation set the plane on fire.

[toto]

Just now, MikeOH said:

Maybe it's just me, but the video I saw looked like the jet was ON FIRE before it even hit the ground!  I'm not seeing how LOC due to spatial disorientation set the plane on fire.

Juan mentioned in his video that what looks like fire was actually just reflection off the low overcast clouds. Idk 

 

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, toto said:

Juan mentioned in his video that what looks like fire was actually just reflection off the low overcast clouds. Idk 

 

Pretty dramatic 'reflection' IMHO!  But, like you, IDK for certain.

[Ragsf15e]

Honestly, from a professional pilot perspective, I wouldn’t think twice about taking off at night into 400 ovc/br.  They had two pilots and a capable aircraft.  I don’t know what avionics, but some type of autopilot as well.  Seems like we always want to blame spacial D (it is sometimes the cause) because it’s easy to say “ I wouldn’t do that” or, “it wouldn’t happen to me.”  I think there’s more to this story.

[Paul Thomas]

As I gain experience, my tolerance for taking off with low ceilings continues to decline. I remain IFR proficient but I very much try to take off and land in VMC conditions.

[DXB]

53 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Honestly, from a professional pilot perspective, I wouldn’t think twice about taking off at night into 400 ovc/br.  They had two pilots and a capable aircraft.  I don’t know what avionics, but some type of autopilot as well.  Seems like we always want to blame spacial D (it is sometimes the cause) because it’s easy to say “ I wouldn’t do that” or, “it wouldn’t happen to me.”  I think there’s more to this story.

Perhaps some minor or major distraction in the cockpit or cabin?  The distraction could be human in nature or, perhaps more likely here, aircraft systems related and lead to commanded or automatic disconnection of the autopilot after they first tried to engage it.  It seems like they never made the turn to assigned heading of 290, which should have been in the heading bug and followed by autopilot.  Spatial disorientation may have become the key factor once the autopilot was off, assuming it was ever on.   It also seems like these possibilities will be nearly impossible to sort with a pulverized/incinerated aircraft and no CVR/FDR; however, this broad category of issues seems more likely than a catastrophic, unrecoverable aircraft systems failure, particulary given poor weather plus nighttime.  

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Honestly, from a professional pilot perspective, I wouldn’t think twice about taking off at night into 400 ovc/br.  They had two pilots and a capable aircraft.  I don’t know what avionics, but some type of autopilot as well.  Seems like we always want to blame spacial D (it is sometimes the cause) because it’s easy to say “ I wouldn’t do that” or, “it wouldn’t happen to me.”  I think there’s more to this story.

100% agree.  6 SM visibility is not even close to IMC!  I'm completely heads-down by 400 feet when I would be making my first turn.  Sorry, no way I'm buying this was a disorientation accident.  Yeah, my opinion.

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, DXB said:

Perhaps some minor or major distraction in the cockpit or cabin?  The distraction could be human in nature or, perhaps more likely here, aircraft systems related and lead to commanded or automatic disconnection of the autopilot after they first tried to engage it.  It seems like they never made the turn to assigned heading of 290, which should have been in the heading bug and followed by autopilot.  Spatial disorientation may have become the key factor once the autopilot was off, assuming it was ever on.   It also seems like these possibilities will be nearly impossible to sort with a pulverized/incinerated aircraft and no CVR/FDR; however, this broad category of issues seems more likely than a catastrophic, unrecoverable aircraft systems failure, particulary given poor weather plus nighttime.  

That just isn't that 'poor weather' for a pro jet two person crew.  Personally, if the plane was in flames BEFORE hitting the ground I think catastrophic failure is VERY likely the cause. It was a med flight; uncontained engine failure followed by shrapnel puncturing a high pressure oxygen tank, for example.

[Ragsf15e]

6 minutes ago, DXB said:

Perhaps some minor or major distraction in the cockpit or cabin?  The distraction could be human in nature or, perhaps more likely here, aircraft systems related and lead to commanded or automatic disconnection of the autopilot after they first tried to engage it.  It seems like they never made the turn to assigned heading of 290, which should have been in the heading bug and followed by autopilot.  Spatial disorientation may have become the key factor once the autopilot was off, assuming it was ever on.   It also seems like these possibilities will be nearly impossible to sort with a pulverized/incinerated aircraft and no CVR/FDR; however, this broad category of issues seems more likely than a catastrophic, unrecoverable aircraft systems failure, particulary given poor weather plus nighttime.  

Yeah that’s definitely fair. Any kind of distraction at that time could lead down the path toward disorientation.  I’m just thinking there’s something, maybe even something minor, that precipitated the chain.

[GeeBee]

Anything with an XA registration is suspect competence.

 

[MikeOH]

5 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Anything with an XA registration is suspect competence.

 

Any reasonably statistical basis for that comment, or just your opinion?

[Fritz1]

Really looks like it was on fire before it hit the ground, if not, AI failure possible culprit, or pitot heat failure, needlees to say I am not a Lear driver, truth may never come out, impact at steep angle high speed full of fuel, total destruction

[DXB]

18 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Anything with an XA registration is suspect competence.

 

We don't know the identities of the pilots and their experience/training records yet, but this question of competence will at least be partly answered. The company is based out of both Mexico City and Miami and operates in the US under part 135 rules.

https://www.jet-rescue.com/

[Schllc]

43 minutes ago, Paul Thomas said:

As I gain experience, my tolerance for taking off with low ceilings continues to decline. I remain IFR proficient but I very much try to take off and land in VMC conditions.

I wouldn’t plan on it anywhere but my how drone.

If you think about how much force control to go from full throttle climb, to near 90deg in 67 seconds mean there was a relatively quick change it attitude. No way that felt natural in that time frame. Rapid and large cg shift would cause that.  I saw the layout of the plane with the stretcher. I don’t think weight of the child in a bed would be enough, but if one or two adults went with, it could be, but I admit, I am not familiar with a Lear 55 envelope. 

[MooneyMitch]

Someone mentioned a possible major weigh shift, due to lack of equipment securing, causing a situation rendering the flight control useless and an eventual stall.  I recall this with a 747 out of Afghanistan several years ago.  Huge cargo shift that caused that crash [on video].

Regarding the fire issue.........again someone mentioned that what appears to be the jet on fire, is possibly the aircraft forward lights reflecting [at times intermittent] off of the broken clouds during the rapid decent

[GeeBee]

53 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Any reasonably statistical basis for that comment, or just your opinion?

One, having done flight ops quality assessment on a major Mexican airline our team found many discrepancies in training and experience. This is not new.

This airplane was operated by the Interior Ministry of the Government of Mexico and nobody in any seat was remotely qualified to operate to operate the Lear 45

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mexico_City_Learjet_cras

"

• Pilot Martín Olíva and co-pilot Álvaro Sánchez^[13] were not certified to operate the Learjet 45. The investigation concluded that both pilots had received fraudulent certifications: Captain Olíva lied about the number of training flights he had made, and had issues on the few training flights he did complete, while Captain Sánchez lied about being a Learjet 45 instructor. Both men had taken advantage of a corrupt system to get false training documents and some unsigned Learjet 45 certification forms from their flight schools. These revelations led Mexican authorities to suspend the licences of both flight schools.

• Conversation among the flight crew further indicates that they had little familiarity with the operation of the plane; they voiced confusion on several occasions about the cockpit instruments and failed to enter the proper information into the flight computers, did not follow a proper flight plan, and had navigational difficulties, missing their original arrival to San Luis Potosí by over 250 nautical miles (460 km). Further, their in-flight conversations were more of the nature of people driving a car, not of trained pilots following a proper flight plan.

 

That corrupt system still exists.

Second, Jet Rescue Air Ambulance crashed a Lear 35 in Cuernavaca in 2023. One crash for a small operation is a tragedy, two in as many years is a trend.

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/347512

 

[McMooney]

I want there to be more than disorientation, these are professional pilots, this is literally the thing they get paid to do.  between having a capable crew and aircraft, there has to be more to this story.   the way that thing dropped  i'd believe some sort of failure

Edited Monday at 03:00 AM by McMooney

[Sixstring2k]

Just saw in the news that the plane was (surprisingly) equipped with a voice recorder and it has being recovered. 
 

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/live-updates-philadelphia-medical-jet-plane-crash-explosion-deadly-valentina-guzman-murillo/4096778/
 

 

[GeeBee]

3 hours ago, Sixstring2k said:

Just saw in the news that the plane was (surprisingly) equipped with a voice recorder and it has being recovered. 
 

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/live-updates-philadelphia-medical-jet-plane-crash-explosion-deadly-valentina-guzman-murillo/4096778/
 

 

It is an FAR requirement. 

7 hours ago, McMooney said:

I want there to be more than disorientation, these are professional pilots, this is literally the thing they get paid to do.  between having a capable crew and aircraft, there has to be more to this story.   the way that thing dropped  i'd believe some sort of failure

I do too but the same operator "professional pilots"  less than 2 years earlier could not put the airplane down and stop it in 9,400'. 

[midlifeflyer]

For me, the event was so fast, so sudden, and so immediately catastrophic, that speculation has even less value than usual. 

[N201MKTurbo]

Perhapse they had an autopilot or trim failure.

[Pinecone]

6 hours ago, GeeBee said:

It is an FAR requirement. 

I do too but the same operator "professional pilots"  less than 2 years earlier could not put the airplane down and stop it in 9,400'. 

But not US registered aircraft.

 

[GeeBee]

13 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

But not US registered aircraft.

 

But to operate in the US under a Foreign Air Carrier Certificate they have to comply with Part 135. 

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

But to operate in the US under a Foreign Air Carrier Certificate they have to comply with Part 135. 

Did not know that.