Say Type???

[wombat]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

When in a pattern, or entering one etc.

I say Blue and White Mooney, then they know what to look for, tail number tells them nothing, they could look up, see a 172 and think I have the traffic, but don’t of course.

Central Fl is full of students and it’s best to be obvious with them

99% of the time I fly into uncontrolled fields too though. Tower I give type and tail number.

IFR of course it’s Mike 20 Juliet, color would be silly. 

You know that's counter to the FAA's published documentation in AC90-66B section 10.3.1 right?  

From the AC: Self-announce transmissions may include aircraft type to aid in identification and detection, but should not use paint schemes or color descriptions to replace the use of the aircraft call sign. For example, “MIDWEST TRAFFIC, TWIN COMMANDER FIVE ONE ROMEO FOXTROT TEN MILES NORTHEAST” or “MIDWEST TRAFFIC, FIVE ONE ROMEO FOXTROT TWIN COMMANDER TEN MILES NORTHEAST,” not “MIDWEST TRAFFIC, BLUE AND WHITE TWIN COMMANDER TEN MILES NORTHEAST.” 

This is the same document and paragraph even that says ""Any traffic in the area, please advise" should not be used under any condition.

 

I agree with one of those and disagree with one.   I expect you are the same, but I also expect our positions are reversed.    For what it's worth, I follow both recommendations/statements/whatevers...

Actually, I don't really know if I agree with either of them.... in my opinion it gets into a lot of pretty weird human psychological behaviors.  But I still do what the FAA has said I should.

 

 

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66B.pdf

[wombat]

I'm in a meeting that I can't leave but don't have to pay attention to, so I guess I'll expand on my opinions here...

 

Regarding Color and Type Vs. Tail Number.   I think this is actually a complex issue.

• Many aircraft have ADS-B In and Out these days and if you announce your tail number they can associate your announcement to what they see on their ADS-B In display.
• The difference between many models is so trivial that announcing your type is wasteful.   We'd be way better off announcing size and speed.
• There are many people who will behave 'better' if they are not anonymous.  Of course, none of *us* here, but many other people.    So in this way, the tail number announcement is a safety improvement.
• Yeah, if you can read someone's tail number, you're probably dangerously close.
• Out of the 5 voices announcing "White Cessna in Downwind", how many planes should I be looking for?
• I use my type and tail number on the radio. 

Regarding "Any Traffic In The Area Please Advise"

• There are people who might be flying in the area that have information that would be useful to the incoming pilot that just don't say it for whatever reason.
• It's letting people know that the incoming pilot is looking for information that might be locally known but not published such as:
  • Current landing runway
  • Animals on or near the runway
  • Wind conditions
  • No-radio aviation traffic in the area
• On the other hand, everybody else should be letting someone who is just entering the area know this stuff anyway.
• I don't say this.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

Regarding "Any Traffic In The Area Please Advise"

• There are people who might be flying in the area that have information that would be useful to the incoming pilot that just don't say it for whatever reason.
• It's letting people know that the incoming pilot is looking for information that might be locally known but not published such as:
  • Current landing runway
  • Animals on or near the runway
  • Wind conditions
  • No-radio aviation traffic in the area
• On the other hand, everybody else should be letting someone who is just entering the area know this stuff anyway.
• I don't say this.

So there are two flight school planes aloft, I'm taxiing out for departure and two transients are dropping in for fuel. Who answers Mr. Clueless calling in the blind for "any traffic"? Am I any traffic? Oh, let's all five of us answer at the same time!

THAT is why the FAA says to NOT MAKE THIS CALL!

[PeteMc]

4 hours ago, wombat said:

Regarding "Any Traffic In The Area Please Advise"

Please DO NOT use that or any of the other useless phrases like "last call" every.  My guess is you haven't flown in areas with a lot of non towered fields and even though years ago they tried to add frequencies, there are still a LOT that are close to each other.  It's bad enough with the legitimate calls and then you're blocked by one of these type calls. 

So if you get in the habit at some sleepy non towered field and then fly into a busy area, you're going to be "that guy" that everyone hates.   

And if you think it's just me saying this.  Take a look at AIM 4-1-9 g. (1): “Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self−Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.

 

Edited August 17, 2024 by PeteMc

[McMooney]

I say M20P

[midlifeflyer]

When I call, I say “Mooney [tail number]. If they still ask for type, they want the ICAO official  M20P or T.

I’ve had that same conversation with other airframes too. Many times since my first generic vs designator ATC conversation on my night dual cross country about 35 years ago.

[dkkim73]

IIUC there are only two ICAO types M20P and M20T, the difference is the latter being turbo (?). 

An experienced Mooney instructor listened to me describing my plane in detail on check-in and said "that's all very nice, just tell them you're a Mooney Turbo next time". I have made the mistake of saying the model designation early on, which confuses even the FBOs. For paperwork, it's "M20T" though these days with Foreflight and Leidos you can pre-enter everything in gory detail, including codes for ADF/ADF PBN-15 or whatever , so it seems like they usually have your stats. 

He warned me that I would be treated differently in a Mooney, higher expectations, so don't blow it. Have definitely heard more "what can you give me to the FAF?" type questions. 

What to say and how much to say seems like partly a matter of procedure and partly of technique. I think it's also different if you're in a tight professional airspace, busy uncontrolled field with 6 planes in the pattern, etc, or tooling around over the great West with the same CTAF freq. over many square miles. E.g. "last call", never thought much about it, but it was used intentionally (and helpfully) by a fractional who was coordinating with center when I was waiting for release behind him. Center wanted me to hold off calling, until he let me know on the ground with that switch-off call. Helpful, I suppose YMMV based on situation. 

 

 

[wombat]

9 hours ago, PeteMc said:

 My guess is you haven't flown in areas with a lot of non towered fields

 

 EDIT:  Looks like you saw that I have, just a little after you posted.      

 

There are arguments to be made for and against those radio calls.  But just because something is not a recognized Self−Announce Position and/or Intention phrase doesn't mean it's not useful.  "There are deer on the runway that are not moving away." is not a recognized Self−Announce Position and/or Intention phrase but I think it could be useful and if the conditions were right, I'd use it.

Some people have their pet peeves and just because some of the people that have this as their pet peeve work for the FAA doesn't change the fact that it can be useful.  But regardless, I just follow the rules.

Yes, there is no guarantee that you won't have multiple people reply.  Or nobody.  But people are not required to have radios (or use them even if they do have them) to begin with.  So we never had a guarantee of success to begin with.   And what do we do if multiple people try to self-announce at the same time?   Or when multiple people check on with ATC at the same time.  Or any simultaneous radio transmission.   Also, @Hank's example is a bit of a strawman.  If there are 5 people in the pattern all making radio calls, even if "Any Traffic In The Area Please Advise" was an acceptable radio call in some situations, it wouldn't be appropriate in that situation.

Regarding "Last Call"....      It lets everybody else on the frequency know that you are not going to be making any further calls on that frequency and probably not listening on that frequency any more.  My home airport has another airport less than 5 miles away but they are on different frequencies.   Many people only have a single radio and when they switch from one frequency to another, if they don't say "last call" nobody else will know if they should expect to continue to talk on the frequency they have been on.  Or even those of us that have multiple radios, when we switch, someone that isn't listening to both won't be able to hear after the switch and they won't know what's going on.  Just like everything though there are times you could use it that are not appropriate.

EDIT: 

Oh, and my pet peeve is when people say they are 'taking the active'...  Oh really?  Where are you taking it?  Can you bring it back later?  You must have some amazing lift capacity if you can take the whole thing!!!  But I recognize these are just silly thoughts and it's a personal preference.   Everybody knows what the person means and that part is really the important part.  It does leave which runway they are 'taking' as an unanswered question which could be important.  But if it is, just ask.    Regardless, I don't give people a hard time about saying they are "taking" the runway.    With students or someone I'm flying with or when we're sitting around just BS-ing I sometimes bring it up as a stupid pet peeve but that's about it, because that's what it is.

[PeteMc]

7 minutes ago, wombat said:

Did you read when I said I do not do that? 

Apologies!  I just saw the post where it looked like you were say you could get info by doing that.

[A64Pilot]

On 8/16/2024 at 6:39 PM, wombat said:

You know that's counter to the FAA's published documentation in AC90-66B section 10.3.1 right?  

From the AC: Self-announce transmissions may include aircraft type to aid in identification and detection, but should not use paint schemes or color descriptions to replace the use of the aircraft call sign. For example, “MIDWEST TRAFFIC, TWIN COMMANDER FIVE ONE ROMEO FOXTROT TEN MILES NORTHEAST” or “MIDWEST TRAFFIC, FIVE ONE ROMEO FOXTROT TWIN COMMANDER TEN MILES NORTHEAST,” not “MIDWEST TRAFFIC, BLUE AND WHITE TWIN COMMANDER TEN MILES NORTHEAST.” 

This is the same document and paragraph even that says ""Any traffic in the area, please advise" should not be used under any condition.

 

I agree with one of those and disagree with one.   I expect you are the same, but I also expect our positions are reversed.    For what it's worth, I follow both recommendations/statements/whatevers...

Actually, I don't really know if I agree with either of them.... in my opinion it gets into a lot of pretty weird human psychological behaviors.  But I still do what the FAA has said I should.

 

 

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66B.pdf

Yes I know, and I believe I know why. With a tail number they can come after you for a violation etc, blue and white Mooney doesn’t give them enough data for them too.

They have a different agenda, 

Besides an AC, is Advisory, not regulatory.

Where I’m at you hear everything as Central Fl must be the home for every puppy mill flight school, you hear calls 20 miles out to overfly the field at 2800, and of course every five miles coming and going. You never know what these guys are going to do, the other day two Embry Riddle aircraft on final to Deland (uncontrolled) realized the were way too high to make the approach, so did the go-around? Nope these geniuses did a 180 on final and started flying back up the approach path, they wouldn’t respond to the radio of course but did turn left and left the pattern

[PeteMc]

4 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Yes I know, and I believe I know why. With a tail number they can come after you for a violation etc

Actually...   I think it is so you can match up the intentions you hear with the N# that a lot of us can now see with ADS-B.  So I now 1234 coming in from the west is going to enter the pattern by flying directly over mid field so 5 minutes.  Rather than swinging way around and coming back in on a standard 45 degree entry 15+ minutes.  And I can monitor their progress between calls to see if you're timing works out with theirs, or if there might be a conflict. 

If you have ADS-B, they already have your track, so what you say on the radio is irrelevant.   And if you turn off your ADS-B to say... fly under a bridge, they still got you even if you don't say a word....

 

Edited August 19, 2024 by PeteMc

[A64Pilot]

5 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Actually...   I think it is so you can match up the intentions you hear with the N# that a lot of us can now see with ADS-B.  So I now 1234 coming in from the west is going to enter the pattern by flying directly over mid field so 5 minutes.  Rather than swinging way around and coming back in on a standard 45 degree entry 15+ minutes.  And I can monitor their progress between calls to see if you're timing works out with theirs, or if there might be a conflict. 

If you have ADS-B, they already have your track, so what you say on the radio is irrelevant.   And if you turn off your ADS-B to say... fly under a bridge, they still got you even if you don't say a word....

 

I think it predates ADSB, but your talking tower controlled where I’m talking uncontrolled.

I dont know what the breakdown is but I’m pretty sure there are far more uncontrolled airports than controlled.

What are you doing up this time of night?

I’ve got Covid and am sick as a dog myself and can’t sleep

[PeteMc]

18 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I think it predates ADSB, but your talking tower controlled where I’m talking uncontrolled.

Nope, totally talking Non-Towered Airports (don't think I'd be self announcing at a Towered Apt. )  And AC90-66B came out in 03/18 and they had been talking about ADS-B for a few years before that.  So I'm assuming the FAA had some mandate to bring it's documents up to date with the pending ADS-B mandate.  But then again, they may have been blowing smoke in the seminar I think I heard it in.

 

[M20F]

I answer SST because while I was born a Mooney I identify as a Concorde. 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

I answer SST because while I was born a Mooney I identify as a Concorde. 

That would be “speedbird”

[Pinecone]

On 8/17/2024 at 12:00 AM, Hank said:

So there are two flight school planes aloft, I'm taxiing out for departure and two transients are dropping in for fuel. Who answers Mr. Clueless calling in the blind for "any traffic"? Am I any traffic? Oh, let's all five of us answer at the same time!

THAT is why the FAA says to NOT MAKE THIS CALL!

And what happens if no one answers, does the inbound assume no one is flying and stops making radio calls?

I use type and tail number for calls in the pattern.

Except for my CAP-10, since very few people have any idea of what to look for.  Also, we get a lot of CAP aircraft at our field, as it is the primary shop for maintenance for the Wing.   So locals hearing CAP think Cessna.  So I normally say Aerobatic or Red and White Aerobatic and the tail number.  The paint scheme is a bit visible.

 

[Pinecone]

On 8/17/2024 at 11:39 AM, wombat said:

Regarding "Last Call"....      It lets everybody else on the frequency know that you are not going to be making any further calls on that frequency and probably not listening on that frequency any more.  My home airport has another airport less than 5 miles away but they are on different frequencies.   Many people only have a single radio and when they switch from one frequency to another, if they don't say "last call" nobody else will know if they should expect to continue to talk on the frequency they have been on.  Or even those of us that have multiple radios, when we switch, someone that isn't listening to both won't be able to hear after the switch and they won't know what's going on.  Just like everything though there are times you could use it that are not appropriate.

I say departing to the XX direction.  That way it is clear that I am leaving.

Saying "last call" just means you are not talking any more.   But if you want to say that, you should use the proword "OUT".

 

[Vance Harral]

Advance apologies... I'm triggered.

As a denizen of an airport where last call has come in vogue, let me opine... it's dumb.  This idea that you are "letting people know you won't be calling or listening to the frequency any more" is dumb.  What are the other aircraft who are still on frequency actually supposed to do with that information?  The biggest irony around here is that it's sometimes not even the last call made on frequency by the aircraft in question - the pilot kiddos using it change their mind, and make another call, often accompanied by a second last call.  To date, I've managed to avoid keying up and asking if it's their real last call, or their next-to-last call... but I say it in my head, and sometimes to my students.

It's not so much the call itself I mind, as the lack of awareness about its use.  I lump it in with other, useless "callouts".  Let's be honest - a lot of this stuff gets said because it sounds cool, and makes you feel like a big boy pilot.  Perhaps it seems "standard", and maybe - if you haven't actually thought it through - it seems "safe"... but the safety purpose of CTAF calls is to provide immediate, actionable information to other aircraft on frequency.  I'm increasingly frustrated that pilots around my neck of the woods - those from the nearby flight school airport in particular - are instead using it as a way to verbalize a checklist for everything they're going to do in the next five minutes; and throwing in Walter Mitty style points at every opportunity.  For example:

• KXXX traffic, bugsmasher N1234 is on frequency, five north at 6500 feet.  We'll teardrop over Runway 29 and enter the pattern on the 45 for a short approach to a touch-and-go, then departing south back to KYYY .
• KXXX traffic, bugsmasher N1234 is overhead at 6500 feet, teardropping over Runway 29 to enter the pattern on the 45 for a short approach to a touch-and-go, then departing south back to KYYY .
• KXXX traffic, bugsmasher N1234 is on the 45 for Runway 29, doing a short approach to a touch-and-go, then departing south back to KYYY.  N54321, we see you on crosswind.  Do you have us in sight?
• (N54321 responds, a conversation is had, often with an "ADS-B position checks!" thrown in for good measure.)
• KXXX traffic, bugsmasher N1234 is on (downwind/base/final) for Runway 29, number two behind N54321, for a touch-and-go, then departing south back to KYYY.
• KXXX traffic, bugsmasher N1234 is actually going to make this a full stop.  We'll exit at Alpha 4 and taxi back on Alpha.
• KXXX traffic, bugsmasher N1234 is clear of Runway 29 at Alpha 4 short of Alpha, we'll be taxiing Alpha 4 back to Runway 29.
• KXXX traffic, bugsmasher N1234 is taking the active, Runway 29, for a straight out departure, followed by a south turn back to KYYY.
• KXXX traffic, bugsmasher N1234 is climbing out on the departure leg from Runway 29 at 5600 feet, we'll be turning south and departing back to KYYY.
• KXXX traffic, bugsmasher N1234 is departing the area to the south, back to KYYY, LAAAST CALLLLLL....  SEEYA!

I wish I was exaggerating about this, but I'm not.

Any single one of those calls might be forgivable by itself.  And I wouldn't particularly care about it if we were some sleepy airport in the middle of nowhere.  But as other airports have increasingly shunned pattern work, ours has become the go-to-spot in the metro area for touch-and-gos, and it's not unusual to get half a dozen airplanes in the pattern at the same time.  That'd be fine if people could have a holistic view of why we communicate on CTAF.  But there always seem to be a couple of training mill pilots in the mix; making their "standard callouts" as above; obliviously stepping on an aircraft trying to broadcast their turn to final, in order to get in their "taxiing back" standard callout; and sprinkling in 30-second, two-way conversations with whoever is closest to them, in the supposed name of traffic avoidance.  All this ignores the fact that they're taking away the frequency from everyone else in the pattern.

Again, the real purpose of the CTAF is to provide immediate, actionable information to other aircraft on frequency.  Where you are right now, maybe what you're doing in the next 10 seconds, and that's it.  That doesn't mean the rules are rigid, that you can't ask a question, or say "Hi, Bob" on a quiet day.  But before you key up that mic, you should ask yourself how busy it is, and if it's busy, how the thing you're about to say is actually helpful to anyone other than yourself.  In that environment, last call doesn't pass the smell test.  And if it's not appropriate at a busy airport where there's a bunch of other traffic, why would it be appropriate anywhere else?

[Will.iam]

And then there is 121.5 where some childish adults can not help themselves as they try to audition for best cat calls and another group that feels they are Barney Fife the guard police. 

[M20F]

5 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

And then there is 121.5 where some childish adults can not help themselves as they try to audition for best cat calls and another group that feels they are Barney Fife the guard police. 

If the internet has taught me anything it is that all cat calls are made by Delta Captains. 

[N201MKTurbo]

Meow

[Fly Boomer]

On 8/19/2024 at 8:45 PM, M20F said:

I answer SST because while I was born a Mooney I identify as a Concorde. 

What are your pronouns?

[Igor_U]

On 8/20/2024 at 5:32 AM, Pinecone said:

Saying "last call" just means you are not talking any more.   

 

Nahh,

in my book that means "last call far alcohol". 

 

[dkkim73]

16 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Nahh,

in my book that means "last call far alcohol". 

 

"You don't have to go home but you can't stay here."

[Justin Schmidt]

On 8/19/2024 at 9:45 PM, M20F said:

I answer SST because while I was born a Mooney I identify as a Concorde. 

Negative ghost rider the pattern is full